ST: BATSUGUN!

For posting and requesting strategic gameplay tips on shmups!
Randorama
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

Faith wrote: Sun Sep 07, 2025 9:25 am Thank you for replying so quickly!~

This is a bit of text, but it does not concern just this game, but info in general.

Actually, I posted this, not to ask you to change anything, but so that there is more info for newer players to the game to find @_@"...

I urge you to keep this thread around, it really has been super helpful to me!~

It is natural, I think, that with enough time, new strategy and new information will always be discovered, but that does not always make old wisdom suddenly useless or irrelevant I feel ^_^"...

If old information is always deleted, I think we also lose the history and steps on how each STG is learned.

At the end of the day, a lot of strategies, routes, etc, is a collective effort of the whole community which we all discuss and learn from each other over the years.

And I never believe in older information becoming "obsolete" because sometimes newer routes have higher skill ceiling and older routes maybe safer for either live stream event or newer player.

Please think about it! Thank you!~

(Edit: P.S. I also wanted to say, this thread, was a lot more helpful than the Shmups Wiki!)
Well, you could open a new thread with updated information and cure the thread for posterity, so to speak. All of my STs were originally designed as drafts that would have been removed once someone with actual expertise on the game would have been able to write a proper ST. For instance, I once opened an ST for Raiden DX that was just a collection of random notes reporting incorrect information, and that inspired SaucyKobold to write a technically impeccable ST for the game, to take the place of my old and obsolete ST. Having STs to stick around when they are not accurate anymore may be historically interesting ("Oh, when did we first have some documents on this game?") but might also be misleading (see the wrong instructions that you mention). Wikis usually report accurate information on their main webpages, and history of edits in the "history" file; we do not have this tool here.

If you want, you can copy and paste the ST and open a new ST thread for it. I will delete this and the other STs for the aforementioned reasons. Perhaps, you may update the wiki directly and open a new ST using the wiki as a main reference, too. Or maybe, the "shmups historians" (three cheers for self-attributed titles!) behind the shmups wiki can think of yet another solution. Outside a handful of threads from which I also extract the shmups reviews, I have no desire to maintain other threads on the forum. Younger generations could take this responsibility, take flak because people constantly complain about imperfections in documents involving unpaid work and generally learn how unpleasant is to deal with childish attitudes. I do research for a living, so I am willing to take flak at minimal rate per hour, PayPal payments accepted.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Randorama wrote: Sun Sep 07, 2025 8:57 amI will delete this thread by the end of this month anyway, as per original plans.
Don't do that; nuking an old thread isn't really necessary and it's sometimes interesting to see how information has been updated and changed from our original knowledge. It can also be handy to have old threads as reference material in case a new thread introduces errors. You can simply edit the original post with a large disclaimer at the top that the material in question is old and not necessarily current and to please refer to a newer ST guide. You can also change the text size of the post to shrink it down so it's clear it's not regarded as current, but the data therein remains accessible.

If you don't want to be pinged about posts to old ST threads I believe you can disable notifications per thread as well.
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

Roo:

I am dissatisfied with the old STs because many were poorly written (e.g. no spaces after commas, no references) and a few contain wrong information I never bothered to double-check (e.g. the "Pig moves" in this ST). Re-writing them would cost me more time and patience than I currently have. I

have uploaded research material of mine on papers' repositories before actual publication in the past, but I always deleted intermediate versions after publication. More in general, once a version of an article can be considered "ready", it is up to the authors to decide if previous drafts including mistakes can remain online. I do not like the idea, so I do not like having these STs lying around also because I do not want to have final versions of them. Again, there are better sources around (other STs, the wikis, etc.), and people with apparently more time and titles for the task.

Anyway, personally believe that the shmups wikis could provide way more flexible and useful tools for recording and updating information: the main/front pages report what is known to be correct about a game, and the history file can report historical facts about information gathering, as "back-end" material. This whole section could use a general overhaul, but such a project would require a few people coordinating the effort and actually doing some unpaid work as a hobby.

As I mentioned in my previous posts, younger generations could also take responsibility and work on the STs for free, while possibly copping flak from the occasional trolls who complain about information not being perfect or even ordering authors around (e.g. "don't do that"). This would entail that people would need to spend some (serious?) time writing these documents in an intelligible manner, for the good of a community of...oh, just read a few posts and you know what I am not going to write down. Basic fact: most people here would rather die than actually make an "effort for the community". If you disagree, please let me know how the new Giga Wing ST is shaping up. 2018? I was still in Guangzhou, I guess?

I will delete all old STs of mine by the 30th of September, and I will put on ignore all users who will post comments that are not pro-active statements showing the will to preserve and improve whatever information is actually correct in the STs (e.g. explanation of basic mechanics that might be more accurate than those in the wikis. For once in two decades, people can show that they can be arsed to sit down and write meaningful posts, instead of begging me not to delete obsolete materials and actually work on edits because people cannot be arsed to take matters in their hands.

Love the hobby? Do something for the "community" yourselves, and enjoy the results of your hard work.

EDIT:

I will delete this ST on the 2025/09/30. Anyone who is willing the incorporate information from this ST in future STs is welcome to do so before that date. The STG wiki page for the game represents a simply superior source, but some readers might want to preserve parts of this now obsolete ST for their own personal reasons. Readers who wish to complain about this decision can read Sistem11's message in the DonPachi ST from 10 years ago for some background.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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BareKnuckleRoo
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Randorama wrote: Wed Sep 10, 2025 9:34 amBasic fact: most people here would rather die than actually make an "effort for the community". If you disagree, please let me know how the new Giga Wing ST is shaping up. 2018? I was still in Guangzhou, I guess?
Dude, in the kindest possible way: what the fuck's wrong with you?

Apparently writing three separate STs for the forum, two of which I crossposted on Shmups Wiki (I suck at Wiki formatting and there's sadly limited interest in SideLine) isn't good enough for you. My scoring, much as I love Giga Wing for survival play, is still embarrassingly low and until I improve I still feel many other people could do it better justice. That doesn't mean you need to nuke old forum posts, that defeats the point of a forum's archival benefits and sometimes it's fun to go back over old posts. Instead of suggesting people simply can't be bothered to make an effort, consider that a lot of people have imposter syndrome and feel uncomfortable writing authoritatively on something they're not fully knowledgeable about.

You're an asshole.

edit:
I hope that one day you will grow up and learn manners; your posting history suggests that I am cultivating a chimeric hope, with men-children like you.
and a massive hypocrite, goddamn



the super edit of superedits:

I won't waste my breath expecting an apology (he's lying about the date, the last conversation about Giga Wing we had was April 2021), but for the record Rando's suggestion that I'm not making an "effort for the community" because there's no new Giga Wing strategy thread is rather obnoxious.

Writing is hard, as he well knows and has commented. He keeps lamenting that nobody else has taken over any of his many threads, but really, being confident enough to make an authoritative and relatively accurate thread is a challenge, and suggesting it must be laziness that stops people from making guides on the forum is intellectually dishonest and devalues the people who've developed the skills to make some really, really damn good guides. He wants more accurate, up-to-date guides that don't appear half-assed, but even if you have the skill and game familiarity, writing something useful for a high-speed action game can be difficult. We should consider ourselves fortunate to have some amazing guides available and generally good threads with reference material compiled! Video guides in a lot of cases can be more useful or are simply popular, and there's a lot of players that have started making guides in that format. The forum format also means that the initial poster ends up having the responsibility for the guide and edits, unlike a Wiki where there's less responsibility on one writer to "lead" and revise the information, which likely makes it more pressure for someone to be the one to make and run a thread compared to a Wiki entry where someone can make a short entry and then leave it to be fleshed out by others.

As far as I'm personally concerned, the reason I haven't written anything is not laziness, but rather something far more embarrassing I've told him before: I suck at Giga Wing. I know several people IRL who can score vastly higher than I can. It feels weird to be writing a guide when my score is below 50 trillion when people on the forum here can quadruple that. Sure, I can write for days about survival play, but neglecting to talk about scoring in a game with tons of scoring depth feels rather half-assed, and while I was feeling ambitious and wanting to improve, I simply haven't been able to. I'm still not terribly good at the scoring side of things though and trying to write a definitive guide on a game with a really fun scoring system while neglecting said scoring system makes me feel like a poser. By the way, thanks for the reminder Rando that I suck at a game I love, my self-esteem appreciates the hit. :/

When he complains that people "don't wanna write stuff" what he neglects is that I've told him I don't want to write stuff about GW yet. If he'd really bothered to pay attention, I do try to write about games I love, specifically after I obsessively play them to the point where I feel I'm an authoritative figure on them, and usually play them well enough to have good video reference material. Once I've really, really gotten good at a game do I feel comfortable passing myself off as some kind of authority on the game. For reference, here's a list of things I have written guides for and the circumstances:

Iffermoon: Clearing everything and meeting the superboss requires 4 playthroughs on increasingly hard difficulties. I got damn good at it before I ever sat down to write my first FAQ.

Wild West C.O.W. Boys of Moo Mesa: A friend got me into this and I played it a massive amount for a long period of time until I had 2-ALL clears of both major revisions on Youtube including one that gets through loop 1 deathless. I've talked about it extensively under the R2RKMF thread, documented version changes, and can crank out 1ccs without breaking a sweat. I know this game damn well.

SideLine: I fell in love with this game and played it to the point where I got to nearly the end of the 8th loop in a game. I can absolutely talk anyone's ear off about the game, I have quality footage on Youtube, I know where all the secret 1UPs are, weapon and boss strats, etc. I've not seen any Youtube footage that has as high of a score, there's a few people who've played a few loops but not to the point where the high score entry screen appears to glitch out like it does!

Raiga Strato Fighter: I've been told my 2-All nomiss clear has the highest known scoring on recorded footage. There's higher scores players in Japan have managed (wish I wish I could see, I frustratingly can't puzzle where to squeeze out more points) but my skills at this when I was playing extensively were damn good. I still wonder if writing a text guide for the levels is helpful or if simply having the video reference is sufficient, but there's a strategy guide there at least.

Halley's Comet: I got into this game in a big way, ended up getting 2 separate counterstop clears that beat loop 2, the first live at a gaming meet that wasn't recorded, and then again privately so I had something for Youtube. Haven't managed to counterstop the Switch port sadly, the added input lag due to Switch hardware has made it a bit difficult for me to clear Loop 2.

Gunstar Heroes: Wrote about beating the Genesis and Game Gear versions on max difficulty as well as the arcade version. The Genesis ver on Expert is by no means a free 1CC. I'm not as good as that one player that did it without taking damage though!

Bayonetta: I'm one of the best players in the world. Not quite the best, but I have a clear I've not seen anyone else replicate and have a full story run that doubles as a walkthrough with details on how to tackle each fight that gets the best ranking on the hardest difficulty without resorting to a commonly used exploit people normally use to get Pure Platinums. I've also taken the time to extensively respond to viewers asking for advice on my most-commented video, the first Lost Chapter: Angel Slayer clear I got as a Pure Platinum

Obscure: I went to the effort of making a full video based walkthough of the Hard mode complete with text commentary.

Dark Souls: Fully commentated challenge run.

None of my Youtube stuff is monetized by the way; it's all because if I'm getting really good at a game I figure I should probably serve as a resource for others, the way other great channels have helped me out in the past (like Tomatyesc's Bayonetta focused channel).

I also have other various other miscellaneous videos like a quick Progear primer that wasn't intended as a proper guide but rather something I could show to people who kept asking for explanations on how to play when I was hanging out in a friend's stream, and some really old stuff like a Streets of Rage 3 playthrough as Roo that was commentated before anyone else had recorded a run as him (much better players have since put up SoR3 runs that beat it with Roo deathless). But these aren't as in-depth or detailed as the stuff I've mentioned above.

My point is: I really, really want to know a game inside out before I start writing a guide about it, and sadly I just don't feel I've managed to get to that point with Giga Wing yet (thanks again Rando for the utterly tactless remarks, real motivating). It's not laziness; it's me sucking and feeling utterly unqualified to do so. Like, I can watch a high scoring superplay but I can't knowledgeably discuss what's happening and the timing as well as I'd like, and I definitely can't replicate it properly. :/ As per our last discussion in his thread (in 2021, not 2018), I was hoping I'd be able to play more Giga Wing and feel like I'd improved good enough to take it over and try writing about it since he didn't want to be responsible for the thread... but my attempts at improving my scoring have largely fallen flat the past few years. Rather embarrassingly, I might add. So I figured if someone else better got to it before me they could take over the thread and potentially do a better job. Maybe I'll get better someday, I don't know. :/

After consistently failing to improve at Giga Wing's scoring, having to wake up today to someone insinuating that I haven't been making enough of an "effort for the community" with respect to Giga Wing really fucking stings. I still feel I have tons to learn with Donpachi for that matter, I can reach the 2-5 TLB with Type-B but I've hit a wall and I can't quite beat the damn thing despite many, many attempts. :(

So yeah. Instead of wallowing in misery at not having seen the progress I'd hoped for in Giga Wing and Donpachi, I've been taking an extended break and just focused my efforts on other games... My current projects include a Starcrawlers guide where I need to replay it a few times to cover as much as the alternate story paths as possible, and a video walkthrough of Wrath of Earth. I've learned some really cool new strategies and figured out one puzzle I used to brute force so now it's just a matter of getting good footage, I'm hoping for one run deathless with no reloads but because I tend to take the levels slow I'll likely have to segment it...
Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Wed Sep 10, 2025 11:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Randorama
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

BareKnuckleRoo wrote: Wed Sep 10, 2025 1:56 pm
Dude, in the kindest possible way: what the fuck's wrong with you?
Please avoid asking stupid questions like this one and please refrain from ordering people around.

Actually, please ask this question at whoever you see in the mirror. I wonder what he/she might answer you (ah, De Se attitudes jokes are my favourites).
Anyway, I actually am enduring junior colleagues at work who display worse attitudes on crucial work matters and dare to ask that I do their job because they lack the relevant skills.

The whole "I don't wanna write stuff! You do it!" attitude from younger people at work and at home gets grating, in the long distance. Young men, these days...

Oh, and this:
You're an asshole.
Reported, and you go on the ignore list. I hope that one day you will grow up and learn manners; your posting history suggests that I am cultivating a chimeric hope. Best of luck, anyway!

EDIT:

I actually deleted the material in the first post(s) of each ST/GD, as threads cannot be deleted once there are replies. The rest of the thread will remain in place, this being a measure of some sort that prevents people from doing something illegal (e.g. posting links to roms and such) and then deleting proof of their heinous crimes. Since I also want to retain control over my own posts, especially when they do not infringe any rules, I have deleted them now in order to avoid that somebody may quote them and keep them online without my consent.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Speaking of your junior colleagues, I certainly hope for their sake that you don't behave this pretentiously towards them, though given nearly everything you write seems to come off that way (the "squibs" thread in particular...), I seriously doubt it. Still can't figure out what possessed you to make such an unbelievably snide remark directed at me then act like I'm the rude one here. How dare I not possess a heart of stone and take offense, right?

Honestly, I think it's possibly the nastiest, most mean-spirited comment anyone on this forum has ever directed at me, and that's including the My-Little-Pony obsessed weirdo who wrote that infamous fanfic and openly fantasized about having an excuse to shoot me dead. :lol:
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

You can write whatever you want, Roo, but I am ignoring your messages. I am definitely curious about how long you wish to proceed with the 808 style of post, and about how long your behaviour will go unmoderated. Day 2: I hope you will deliver!
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Faith »

Randorama wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:07 pm2025/09/10 (...) I have deleted them now in order to avoid that somebody may quote them and keep them online without my consent.
I think it is unreasonable to post something and then have worry about someone quoting it and "keep them online without consent."

Does that not go against... a lot of the basis of the internet?

And forums especially? @_@"...

Also, does it not contradict your original statement when you said we can copy and paste it?

Could you please clarify your position? So may we copy and paste it or not?

See:
Randorama wrote: Sun Sep 07, 2025 10:04 amIf you want, you can copy and paste the ST and open a new ST thread for it.

Edit: Sorry, really don't want to be "that person" and to come across to needlessly provoke, but this needs to be said:
Randorama wrote: Wed Sep 10, 2025 9:34 amThe STG wiki page for the game represents a simply superior source
That is simply untrue and shows that you read neither your own ST nor the Wiki. To be clear: I would not expect this of you, but, if you want to make a claim, then the duty falls on yourself to research that claim. I would expect more from someone claiming to "do research for a living." The STG Wiki Page for this game does not even show how or where to score the pigs, it does not even contain most of the information from the "2.0 SCORING TRICKS" section of your original post which I had already archived because you did originally say "you can copy and paste the ST."

Just because something is "prettier" does not make it better.

And, above all: people are diverse, we have many ways to archive information, and many people prefer one, or another, or yet another. I agree that Wiki is good to see past information, but a lot of people really prefer forum, and I respect and understand why. And as a researcher, you should know how important information archive is.

If you do not agree with using certain format or forum for that, that is fine. But other people prefer it. So to delete information just for such a disagreement? I cannot agree.

When I posted the updated info in this thread, this is not how I saw the thread go.

I agree maybe Roo could have said some things a bit better or nicer, but I have to agree and side with Roo's sentiment. I think it is unfair for you to make such blanket statements, and I think, even for me, I can see you have some broad resentment (young people this, young people that) which is uncalled for.
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

Faith wrote: Thu Sep 11, 2025 2:03 am
Randorama wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:07 pm2025/09/10 (...) I have deleted them now in order to avoid that somebody may quote them and keep them online without my consent.
I think it is unreasonable to post something and then have worry about someone quoting it and "keep them online without consent."

Does that not go against... a lot of the basis of the internet?

And forums especially? @_@"...

Also, does it not contradict your original statement when you said we can copy and paste it?

Could you please clarify your position? So may we copy and paste it or not?
Please see my latest message, but also please see my last post below.
[...]
That is simply untrue and shows that you read neither your own ST nor the Wiki. To be clear: I would not expect this of you, but, if you want to make a claim, then the duty falls on yourself to research that claim. I would expect more from someone claiming to "do research for a living." The STG Wiki Page for this game does not even show how or where to score the pigs, it does not even contain most of the information from the "2.0 SCORING TRICKS" section of your original post which I had already archived because you did originally say "you can copy and paste the ST."
I have no idea on which metric are you using to compare ST and wiki, but you can improve the Wiki with material from the ST. For the rest of your comment, my "duties" are defined by my employment contract with my employers and my marriage contract with my wife, plus other duties I might have as a citizen. Please refrain from using words at random, and please keep in mind that my skills as a researcher are evaluated by my employers and the research community over periods of decades, not by random citizens on the internet who cherry pick single statements for misnterpretation. Something I warmly suggest you to do is to get an education, instead of NEETing your life away on the interwebs.
I agree maybe Roo could have said some things a bit better or nicer, but I have to agree and side with Roo's sentiment. I think it is unfair for you to make such blanket statements, and I think, even for me, I can see you have some broad resentment (young people this, young people that) which is uncalled for.
So, you justify another user personally insulting me but find inappropriate that I voice my own resentment; congratulations on the double standards. I will not share anything with someone like you: your behaviour disgusts me.
Last edited by Randorama on Thu Sep 11, 2025 12:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Faith »

Randorama wrote: Thu Sep 11, 2025 5:56 amFor the rest of your comment, my "duties" are defined by my employment contract with my employers and my marriage contract with my wife, plus other duties I might have as a citizen. Please refrain from using words at random, and please keep in mind that my skills as a researcher are evaluated by my employers and the research community, not by random citizens on the internet.
Oh I see, so you are one of those people who needs contracts.

lol.
Randorama wrote: Thu Sep 11, 2025 5:56 amSo, you justify another user personally insulting me but find inappropriate that I voice my own resentment. Congratulations on the double standards. I will not share anything with someone like you: your behaviour disgusts me.
lol^2.

I never did justify anything.

I did directly say Roo could have said things better, but his sentiment is not wrong. Roo had a problem with you with what you said. You have a problem with groups of people because you generalize.

Maybe you need to be the one to stop with random words and assumptions? Haha. You really do have a big victim complex.
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by BareKnuckleRoo »

Rando wrote:I will not share anything with someone like you: your behaviour disgusts me.
You really are a massive hypocrite.

Anyways, as I'm sure other readers are well aware, Rando's guides were nice general overviews for new players as an entry into the game and a place for strategy discussion, but honestly none of them have ever approached anything as in-depth and useful as some of the really polished guides here such as the one for Garegga or even the one for Eight Forces. That, and all of Rando's writings are still accessible on archive.org so if you really want to read them his temper tantrum has had zero material impact on the forum whatsoever. :lol:

edit: Yikes, I just saw the Mars Matrix thread, for a guy who keeps insisting on how much older and wiser he is, Rando is really behaving childishly.
Last edited by BareKnuckleRoo on Thu Sep 11, 2025 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

Day 2, post 2? I may need a scoreboard for you two. I wonder what you might be writing, though. The foe/ignore function is really beautiful, because it shows an empty space in place of the relevant message. Apt representation for the actual content of your messages, I guess? I must say that people desperately holding onto 20-years old texts which were not even formatted properly strikes me as...actually, it does not strike me at all. Laziness and entitlement seem a defining factor of modern generations. Ah, back in my old days...
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by aak »

Hey, these threads still show up on searches, so although you may think they're useless, it's still better to have them up and be able to get information from them rather than clicking the link and just being greeted by a blank post. It's more useless this way than just having somewhat outdated info on there. And they're all still on Archive.org so really if someone wants to read it you're just making them take an extra step. You could at least link the shmups wiki from here if you want people to use that instead. I just joined to post this after using this thread for a few days and noticing that it's gone now, so I don't really understand the dynamic here, but this really feels like unnecessary neuroticism.
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

aak wrote: Fri Sep 12, 2025 5:35 am Hey
Hello, and welcome onboard.
these threads still show up on searches, so although you may think they're useless, it's still better
Better, for who?
to have them up and be able to get information from them rather than clicking the link and just being greeted by a blank post.
Oh, but there is some text in the first post, why do you say that it is blank?
It's more useless this way than just having somewhat outdated info on there.
More useless, to who? While I am happy to be useful to a variety of individuals, "average Joe on the internet" has gone beyond my scope these days. Especially when they cannot say "thanks" and act like they're entitled to tell me what to do with my own posts.
And they're all still on Archive.org so really if someone wants to read it you're just making them take an extra step.
So? Is this a life-or-death situation for anyone? If so, I vote pollice verso.
You could at least link the shmups wiki from here if you want people to use that instead.
Heavens no! I don't want people to do anything. Freedom for all.
I just joined to post this after using this thread for a few days and noticing that it's gone now, so I don't really understand the dynamic here, but this really feels like unnecessary neuroticism.
Feels to who? What is your point exactly, that I am supposed not to act as a neurotic because you implied so, in a remarkably roundabout manner? And if I want to be a neurotic, what are you going to do about it, tell me that people on the interwebs must work for free, and declare that you will not consent me to...do something? (I cannot possibly be bothered to remember what Faith wrote, sorry)?

...I had a good larf out of this post, thank you. Off to ignore list, sorry (in the English sense of the word, of course). Please let me know if you die off a few extra clicks; I will toast to another Darwin award having met its goal. Though I will not know it; the ignore function, etc.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by aak »

Is there a rule against being the most obnoxious person to ever live
Randorama
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

Ah, how much I love the ignore function! Day 1, aak?
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Marisquizo »

Randorama wrote: Sat Sep 13, 2025 2:40 am Ah, how much I love the ignore function! Day 1, aak?
I made an account because this thread was linked somewhere else. You sound like a redditor
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

Another user joins the list!
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by aak »

"Everyone who encounters me thinks I'm annoying as shit but actually I win because I can ignore all of it" lmao cope
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

Keep goings, lads, it's all in good fun. Whatever you are posting, that is.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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aak
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by aak »

DISCLAIMER:

This ST has survived the reddit boomer's meltdown because of archive.org's brilliant work! Thanks very much for your fundamental contribution :wink: !

EDIT - 21-09-2011

Added exact scores for stage 4 and stage 5 tricks, corrected instructions for pigs (Contribution by PLASMO)

INDEX OF CONTENTS

0.0 INTRODUCTION
0.1 TOAPLAN'S LAST MOMENTS
0.2 SHMUPS PHILOLOGY 1.01
0.3 RANDOM TRIVIA
1.0 BASIC MECHANICS.
1.1 A NOTE
1.1.1 NORMAL VERSION
1.1.2 SPECIAL VERSION
1.2 EXPERIENCE SYSTEM
1.2.1 NORMAL VERSION
1.2.2 SPECIAL VERSION
1.3 SHIPS
1.3.1 TYPE A
1.3.2 TYPE B
1.3.3 TYPE C
1.4 AUTOFIRE
1.4.1 TYPE A AND AUTOFIRE
1.4.2 TYPE B AND AUTOFIRE
1.4.3 TYPE C AND AUTOFIRE
1.5 PIGS
1.5.1 NORMAL VERSION.
1.5.2 SPECIAL VERSION
2.0 SCORING TRICKS
2.1 STAGE 2
2.2 STAGE 4
2.3 STAGE 5
3.0 ROUNDS AND DIFFICULTY
3.1. DIFFICULTY
3.2 ROUNDS AND SUICIDE BULLETS
3.2.1 FIRST ROUND
3.2.2 SECOND ROUND
3.2.3 THIRD ROUND
3.2.4 FOURTH ROUND
4.0 CONCLUSIONS

0.0 INTRODUCTION

Batsugun, as you may know, is the last game by Toaplan and the first without infinite loops:the normal version ends after 5 stages,the special version loops four times,starting at second stage on second loop,at third on third loop,at fourth on fourth loop.It was the first game featuring human characters, drawn by Junia Inoue (Joker Jun), a reduced hit box, and a set of other features we'll discuss at length during this shmup treatise. What's the game about? On a distant Star, a human colony is being abused by its tyrants,who made a coup-d'etat and started a wacky project to colonize outer space.Six mighty warriors, the "skull hornets" brigade, will put an end to this weird project...

0.1 TOAPLAN'S LAST MOMENTS

The original game was produced in 1993, whereas the Special version had to be released for the AOU show in 1994, if Toaplan didn't bankrupt.Boards of the special version started appearing on second-hand markets after a while...even if the best solution you can get is the Saturn port, since emulation is pretty bad (it lacks sound and,i think, in MAME has graphical glitches,dunno about emulators).While the normal version PCB shouldn't be very expensive ( i think less than 100$), the special version should cost a lot.Let's say that "The Sheep" (the guy posting here) may help you in this regard,but that's all i can tell you (i suppose he can burn the extra roms and then you solder those to your board). You may actually be interested in the PCB or emulation because the Saturn port (done by Gazelle,ex-Toaplan members) is actually an optimized version, id est, it doesn't slowdown when there are a shitload of bullets on screen.
This factor becomes very important in the third and fourth loops of special version, mainly...yes,there's even a third and a fourth loop, but more on this later.

0.2 SHMUPS PHILOLOGY 1.01

Now,one thing about Batsugun is its striking resemblances to Cave games...This is because The main programmer behind this game was Tsuneki Ikeda, who also was the main programmer behind Tatsujin and,along with Kenichi Takano,Cave's founders and programmers of all Cave shmups.This also means that any rants on Cave games are to be made knowing that ALL of their games have been done by two persons and a varying number of free-lancers/temporary grunt programmers.
Those striking resemblances have only partially been carried to Cave games...aside the graphical aspect (i don't remember Joker Jun to appear in Don Pachi's credits, for instance), what's more obvious is the almost identical flow of enemies, attack patterns and style of boss battles.The original gameplay of Batsugun, that can be defined as "bombs and bonuses", was actually the main source of inspiration (gameplay-wise) for BATTLE GAREGGA. Why? Battle Garegga's main programmer is S.Yagawa, who worked on many Toaplan games (dunno which ones, sorry) and thus was inspired by his friend for his game (and by Gun Frontier...but this is another story).Also,There's an interesting case of "inspiration cycle" ( in literature, i would talk about philological issues): The type-A is obviously inspired by raiden's ship (in its wide attack/frontal missile combination), a game who is in turn based on early toaplan games (in fact, stage 2 and 7 BGM of Raiden, "Gallantry" is a "cover" of Flying shark stage 2's BGM...not to mention gameplay ).

0.3 RANDOM TRIVIA

An interesting rumour (completely unconfirmed, so don't look at me for more info) is that Joker made a parody of himself by designing Iceman: he should also have provided the voice for said character. This because Joker Jun seems to have the habit of ALWAYS wearing sunglasses.As i said, this is a rumour, and it's more or less useless...but if true, it's hilariously funny

Now, as a rule of thumb i'll expose the common aspects between the two version, and after every paragraph, write the differences between normal and special version.

1.0 BASIC MECHANICS.

Batsugun is pretty an immediate game to play: you shoot up stuff, collect bonuses and power-up your ship.This is basically the whole core of the game.On some points, though, there are some tricks to dramatically increase your score, which basically revolve about bombing the proper enemies (or other actions). Before explaining these tecniques, let's analyze how ships/planes work.

1.1 A NOTE

Before talking about the main feature, the experience system, cover the other attack, the smart bomb: this because it basically never changes when you level up, but it's different between normal and special version. At this point, let's introduce a contrastive (for comparison) model:

1.1.1 NORMAL VERSION

In the normal version,you shoot a "ring of energy",that will expand to about half the screen in radius ,and deal a limited damage (like Flying Shark,for instance).It also cancels bullets in its radius.

1.1.2 SPECIAL VERSION

In the special version, you shoot a screen-covering blast (with a central ball of energy) that will cancel all bullets, destroy almost everything (save mid-bosses and bosses) on screen.There's also the pilot's hand with a pollice recto animation showing up.

These differences are important for scoring purposes,since the special version will be easier to perform a given trick at the fourth boss that will make you score a lot, given the different and more powerful bomb.Also, in the normal version the bomb will basically damage only touched enemies, and this means that you may need to be close to them,or that you can't damage all enemies on screen at once. This can be a problem when dealing with bosses!

Now,let's talk about the main feature, the

1.2 EXPERIENCE SYSTEM.

This game has an RPG element, the experience system,that basically works in this way: every enemy you shoot will give you a given quantity of Experience Points (EP from now on).On the lower part of the screen, you have the number of bombs on the lower-left corner and, beside it, the Experience Points Bar (EPB from now on).This bar is made of 24 blocks, and one block is filled every 12 EP you score (this means you need 288 EP to level up).You can level up to reach level 3, and the ships will change in form every time you do it (only the sprite will be altered,not the hitbox).

Now, you can actually also take power-ups: up to 5 per level. This means that you can make your shot more powerful by taking power-ups, and you can (partially) change its characteristics by levelling up.One example: on level 1, type C (Iceman and Olisis) shoots a wide-shot attack if tapping, and a sort of forward shot if holding down the button. At level 2,at the third power up, you will get pods that shot laser beams. At the second power up of level 3, the most external shots of the wide attack have the homing feature.Once you reach level 3, you stop getting new levels but the bar still can be filled up:why?Because you will get an extra bomb and a shield (on special version).Here are the differences:

1.2.1 NORMAL VERSION

You get an extra bomb once you fill up the bar,after you've reached level 3.

1.2.2 SPECIAL VERSION

You get an extra bomb once you fill up the bar,and you get a shield feature,you can be hit without dying.You will have a "white shadow" following you like the trail you have in Don Pachi (when using the laser). Also, you will get a multiplier equal to round's value for your EP, i.e. if you destroy an enemy worth 10 EP in the third round, you will get 10x3=30 EP.This means that in the last (fourth) round you will level up a lot...which is helpful, since you can't have more than one shield at time.This multiplier also affects the EP bonus given by secret piggies, which are lavander and to be found in given spots by entering a "special move" in key moments (more of this in the "secrets" section).While hovering near the lavander piggies,though, we can get 1,1 exp points per second,and this value is also influenced by the said multiplier (Round Multiplier, or RM). Now,once we've talked about the basic mechanics and experience system,let's analyze the different ships, or types:

1.3 SHIPS

There are three types of ships, but since Joker Jun did an excellent job in drawing very likeable characters,you may want to play with the 2p side characters.At any case, we'll discuss how the three types play and give some hints on characters.Before that,some common features to all ships:

1)Speed is the same for all ships.To my knowledge,this is the only case in shmups with more than one ship.This is true for both versions,actually.
2)Hit area is smaller than the sprite,but still pretty big, in the normal version, whereas the special versions introduces the "cockpit" only hitbox.
3)As we said, bombs are different between the two versions.

Once said that,let's talk about the ships:

1.3.1 TYPE A

This is an interesting case of shmups philology,like i said earlier,and also the ship with the biggest amount of firepower ever to grace a screen.At full power,it easily covers all screen!Now, the evolution of your shot is this:

LEVEL 1 - Normal spread shot.

LEVEL 2 - The spread shot becomes wider,more powerful:at the third power-up,you will trigger the secondary attack,frontal missiles.

LEVEL 3 - The Spread shot will become huge,and at the third power-up,the more external shots will sweep left and right while tapping.

This ship is actually pretty strong played the "Raiden" way, that is,trying to point blank bigger enemies.The amount of bullets you shoot,if all hit the same enemy, can be devastating. It can be the most difficult ship to use in the loops,for this reason.One note: you can't use full auto with this ship,you are forced to always tap the shot button, in order to shot,and this can be tiring...
Its two pilots are Jeeno(1p) and Schneider(2p). Jeeno has actually a sad past and he's trying to prove himself to be the best warrior around (even if he's now a cyborg), whereas Schneider is the "Fling Shark" pilot who was hybernated and moved on this planet during his centuries-long sleep. Some trivia:Type A will become Type C in Don Pachi, minus the secondary attack.


1.3.2 TYPE B

Type B is basically your typical "forward shot" type,and it's pretty powerful once at full power.Its secondary attack is an homing fluxus of energy,strongly reminiscent of Tatsujin's homing lasers.Its development is:

LEVEL 1 - One frontal laser,pretty powerful.

LEVEL 2 - The laser attack becomes more powerful: at the third power-up,you get the aforementioned spiralling fluxus,who basically works like an homing laser.

LEVEL 3 - Every becomes more powerful,and at the third power up the secondary attack increases the number of possible locked attacks, and works like the "toothpaste"(violet) attack in Raiden DX.

This ship is surely the most powerful and can take down bosses in no time,once you overlap the secondary attack onto them.You need to be careful with the secondary attack in loops though,often it can destroy too many enemies and thus you may have too many suicide bullets on screen.It's interesting that you can ONLY use full auto (better,tapping is useless) with this ship.
Its pilots are Beltiana (1p) and Alteeno (2p). Beltiana wants to have revenge for his family,killed by the main baddie,and Alteeno is the young skull hornets' mechanic, who finally has the chance to pilot the ships she always repaired.Some trivia:Type B became type A in Don Pachi,minus the secondary attack.


1.3.3 TYPE C

Type C is the most original one of the trio,since it actually has two different attacks, depending on your actions (tapping or holding down the button).Basically,tapping will give you a wide shot,holding down the button a frontal stream of arched lasers.Its progressions is:

LEVEL 1 - Wide shot and simple frontal attacks.

LEVEL 2 - The wide shot becomes larger and more powerful,at the third power-up you gain two pods that will shoot piercing lasers when in laser mode.

LEVEL 3 - The two most external bullets of the wide shot become homing at the third power up.

This ship is the less powerful but the more versatile.The ability to choose which enemies to take down is excellent for the loops:Some Trivia:it's pretty obvious that the shot/laser attacks,perhaps the most famous feature of Don Pachi series, were inspired by type C.
Its pilots are Iceman (1p) and Olisis.Iceman is a mysterious mercenary with a cloudy past,Whereas Olisis is the prince of Batsugun's planet, and he fights to claim back his reign.

Once we have explained how ships work, let's talk about the

1.4 AUTOFIRE

The three ships all have one element of their firepower that makes them powerful: type A has the missiles, Type B the power surge at the beginning ot the fluxus, Type C the homing bullets in spread mode. The arcade versions were usually hacked with overclocked autofire, that made the said elements easily abusable to get more firepower. The Saturn version has two different options: button A is the normal automatic fire, which lacks the ability to intensify the fire rate unless you're using a joystick with variable autofire. Button C, though, is the equivalent of said hack, and basically substites the need of furious tapping to increase the firepower: if you don't use C, you will be forced to tap a lot, with your speed of tapping being equivalent of the power increase. Let's see how:

1.4.1 TYPE A AND AUTOFIRE

Type A, being Raidenesque in nature, needs tapping, and lots of it. If you want to spare your finger, you can easily use the C button all the time, and it's even better if you point-blank enemies: this because tapping and distance from your enemy rules the frequency of missiles.Of course, you can tap too, but it's difficult to reach the same speed as autofire. you can also turn on auto-fire on button A at maximum speed to have the same result.

1.4.2 TYPE B AND AUTOFIRE

Type B has a power surge at the begging of the fluxus: once it reaches an enemy, the power surge is produced again.By tapping, you produce said power surge more frequently, but you need to have the surge to hit the enemy to do any damage, or it will be useless.The best method is C button, as you will overclock the shot and have several power surges to hit an enemy at once, without damaging your finger.You can also tap with A, but some of the power surges will be cancelled by the continuous action.

1.4.3 TYPE C AND AUTOFIRE

The trickiest of the three: since tapping makes the ship switch to the spread attack, it's better to use A for normal frontal laser, and C button to use the spread attack. Like Type A, the spread attack at point-blank distance deals massive damage.One important thing: be careful when using the spread attack on rounds other than the first, the homing bullets can creat unrequested suicide bullets by destroying odd-placed enemies!

1.5 PIGS

That is,pigs offer you a good way to score a bit and increase your level bar in special version.This because:

a)Peach-coloured pigs are worth 110 points per 1/60th of second you hover near them;
b)Lavander-coloured pigs are worth 1,1 EP per 1/60th of second you hover near them;

Let's see how:

1.5.1 NORMAL VERSION.

Pigs are revealed in four points, and are only of the peach-coloured variety.

a) On Stage 2, hold right-down when destroying the turret on the right side of the island.The pig should appear there.
b) On stage 3, when you destroy the central battery on the main land, and the scroll slows down, hold down.The pig should appear in the falls.
c) On stage 5, there should be two occasions with the same command. Hold left+down, when the stage starts and immediately after you destroy the hangar and the tanks in it,on the left:two pigs.Then,after the section with the round tanks,after the first row of tanks, on the first horizontal road, as soon as it scrolls in, destroy the tanks and pigs should appear in their place.

1.5.2 SPECIAL VERSION

Same four points, same macros, but:

a)On stage 2 ,it's a lavander pig;
b)On stage 3, you get peach pigs instead of bonuses when you destroy the central battery,and the fall pig is of the lavander variety;
c)On stage 5, first one is worth two lavander pigs, second one 8 (if memory serves me right) peach pigs.

You should actually mantain a second or two the last direction,when inserting the macro,in order to be sure. Now,once we know how the pigs work, let's talk about the

2.0 SCORING TRICKS.

Basically,every small V is worth 3k points,and every big V 5k points,at the end of the stage.They are computed since your last death, i.e., if you die and don't get any medals from that point on,no bonuses.once you max out power ups (5) or bombs (7),you will get a bonus that will start at 1k and increase to 10k,1k at time.Also, normal peach pigs are worth 110 points per every 1/60th of a second you hover near them.Of course, all these factors are not enough to max out the score: how to do it, then? Basically,there are a few tricks based on careful bombing (and other stuff).Let's see how:

2.1 STAGE 2

One simple trick,destroy the plane near the turret (where the pigs are) when it's on the ramp, for 68,930 points.

2.2 STAGE 4

This is the most difficult and rewarding trick. A brief explanation is this:

Destroy the five cannons behind the laser cannons. Exploit the hole in the rotating attacks,by placing yourself between cannons the central turret shoots.Once done that,destroy the two laser cannons.Two hangars will be revealed and and tanks will come out of them. Let them "overcrowd" the ramps,they will become red:at this point, you need to bomb and each one of them is worth 56.930 points. Repeat until the boss goes down. This trick is worth 1,311,680 per bomb.

2.3 STAGE 5

You need,when you arrive at the central platform that has two walker mechas on it,to make it arrive at the other side of the factory.This is done by leaving one of the two mechas functional, since the platform will stop moving if you destroy them both.Once it arrives at the other side, it will give you 3,279,650 points.Then, there's a section with round tanks moving on two planes: bomb them for 59,630 points each.This trick can be repeated four times, it is worth a maximum of 1,3x4=5,2M (more or less) in total.

Now, these tricks work on special version, while on normal version, the first stage 5 trick gives you only 300k, and the second one doesn't work. Also,on stage 4, since you have a less powerful bomb,you need to be careful on how to use it (place yourself at centre of the two ramps, at about half of their length).

Some considerations: if you can avoid damaging the central turret at all,it will endure about 8 or 9 bombs.This means that you can suicide in order to score more on this boss.Also,On the platform trick, you should leave the left mecha (withot the lateral cannons) functional,it's easy to destroy other incoming enemies this way. On the round tanks part, learn what's the best bomb distribution,you may actually save one bomb.

Now, this is almost everything you need to know.The last part deals with

3.0 ROUNDS AND DIFFICULTY.

Now, aside the change of palettes, normal and special version differ mainly in length: Since the normal version was pretty short (a complete requires about 20 minutes), the programmers thought of adding a extra challenge by making the game loop 3 times.In this game, loops and normal part are called rounds, so you have to clear four rounds to complete it.You don't repeat all stages: you start again at the stage with the same ordinal value of the round,i.e you start at stage 2 at the second round,stage 3 at third round,stage 4 at fourth round.This gives you a grand total of 14 stages,which require about 80 minutes to be cleared (if you always do the trick at fourth boss).

Now,one important note: i will find a way to show what's the best method to dodge suicide bullets on different rounds.Complex explanations can't do justice,in this case we really need sound and vision. For the moment,though,i will try to explain how to deal with suicide bullets using words,since it's all i have,right now.

3.1. DIFFICULTY

Without much ado: Normal version is set at normal difficulty, and since it's just one round, no suicide bullets whatsoever.Special version starts at EASY difficulty, then goes one level up at every round, gives you an extra ship after every round completed, and has three different types of suicide bullets.This isn't a big problem on the original PCB, since the programmers had to work with a not-too-powerful hardware,and there's plenty of slowdown on round 3 and 4.This slowdown is completely absent on Saturn version, and this means that said port is quite more difficult than the original game.However, it's still doable,once we know how to deal with those nasty suicide bullets.

3.2 ROUNDS AND SUICIDE BULLETS

How we deal with those suicide bullets?First, what you need to know is that if you're near the explosion left by destroying any enemy, there will not be any suicide bullets.This means that the explosion animation must finish before there won't be any suicide bullets:this is *very* important, since bigger enemies will release a lot of suicide bullets,given their longer explosions.This also forces you to know the enemy sequence, and to plan the best way to be closer to all of them while they pop-up on screen.Moving in that sequence is the basis behind chaining in DP and other cases,point-blanking enemies is partially the base behind Esp.Ra.De, and to a lesser extent behind Shikigami games.
One last thing:when boss are destroyed, you're invicible,so,don't worry about their suicide bullets.Be careful on Madzella (second boss) between its first and second phase,you're not invincible,orbit around it to hoard bullets.

Now, how to approach those rounds?

3.2.1 FIRST ROUND

Pretty easy, literally.At some point i started doing it without even focusing, back in the day.

3.2.2 SECOND ROUND

Ok, this one may be tricky, but let's try to understand how to work on it.Suicide bullets will basically come in straight fluxi of red bullets,aimed at you.These fluxi will aimed again every 1/5th of a second,roughly.This means that only bigger enemies will be a serious threat,because they will change direction more than 2 times.The simplest trick is,aside point-blanking and chaining enemies, move only if you're about to be hit,by small taps.If they're going to close you in an angle,stop shooting,make a cut-back (abrupt change of direction)and then start again shooting.

3.2.3 THIRD ROUND

Now things get nasty: you will basically have the game on HARD difficulty, and every enemy will release three rows of orange bullets.One of this rows of bullets will aimed directly at you, the other two will roughtly be oriented at 30° on the left and on the right.This means that there will be a cone of suicide bullets with its generator axis aimed at you.The best trick is point blanking,but you also have to learn not to be exactly in front of enemies:slightly on side,so you'll be in the space between two of the rows.This also means that you have to be careful on cut-backs,since you can have the left (or right row) exploding on your ship.

3.2.4 FOURTH ROUND

Like the third round,but!There will be the "splashing" bullets this time.These bullets are first seen on 4th stage mid-boss:in its second form, it will shoot a salvo of big,almond-shaped orange bullets,then those other bullets that will partially go above your plane and then return to the plane of you ship.Now, all enemies wil release these bullets, and this means that you have a shorted distance to react.Also, the game is at HARDEST difficulty,and this means that every enemy will be very aggressive.The same rules for third round are to be applied, it will just be more difficult to point-blank enemies because of their enhanced aggressivity.

4.0 CONCLUSIONS

Batsugun is surely a nice game,and a good challenge:however, it allows enough freedom to the player to actually choose if he wants to play for score or survival,or any mix of the two.If you want good scores, you really need to learn stage 4's trick, but even the stage 5 tricks will grant you a more than dignitose score.The game becomes difficult from third round on,and its sheer length is also pretty taxing.Nonetheless, it features so many elements that i can suit the tastes of just any player.It's also one of the few cases (if not the only one) of a game that features all ships of the same speed,which lets you choose only on the attack types.I may add some guide to stages in the future, but this is just an hypothesis.
Randorama
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Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm
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Re: ST: BATSUGUN!

Post by Randorama »

Keep goings, lads, it's all in good fun. Whatever you are posting, that is.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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