6th Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time! - Discussion thread

[system11]

which one are you thinking of?

Cybattler

Oh, yeah I used to own that. Definitely an acceptable vote in my book, but a strange one - I'd be surprised if it made it into the top 100 to be honest.

[system11]

Hands up who has played Espgaluda 2?

(I'm putting my hand up now but you'll just have to take my word for it)

Surprised it ranks lower than the original in your votes! I personally think it's the best game Cave have done so far, for various reasons - one of the biggest being the mix of accessibility and depth.

[Herr Schatten]

Surprised it ranks lower than the original in your votes! I personally think it's the best game Cave have done so far, for various reasons - one of the biggest being the mix of accessibility and depth.

I played a few credits of Galuda II at the last London meet, but I'd rank it lower than the first, too, and even that didn't make it in my list.

However, I'm sure that if I'd spend a little more time with Muchi Muchi Pork, it'd easily enter my top ten, because from what little I've played it seemed that it's a fantastic game.

[Shion]

My Galuda II board should arrive this week. Luckily, I can always change my votes before the poll closes

[henry dark]

Hands up who has played Espgaluda 2?

(I'm putting my hand up now but you'll just have to take my word for it)

Surprised it ranks lower than the original in your votes! I personally think it's the best game Cave have done so far, for various reasons - one of the biggest being the mix of accessibility and depth.

To be honest, while I've always enjoyed it, for whatever reason I've never managed to get around to devoting real time in the arcade to playing it.

I really should look into rectifying that!

[MX7]

I've played it, but only about 10 credits. I did get an amazing feeling from it though: the patterns are incredable. The thing about the Glaudas are that for me at least, the setting is horrible, as is the music. Such a shame.

[Ed Oscuro]

To keep UPL games like Nova 2001 in the running, right?

Lol.

I wasn't part of the mod team back then, so I have no idea what the motivation behind the inclusion of said games really was, as it always struck me as an odd thing to do, but I think you're on the right track. :wink:

I realized earlier this morning that Nova 2001 isn't a single-screen arena game. Ah well.

[Turrican]

More useful links :

Inaugural annual had 21 voters, according to Ko.oS

2nd annual had 39 voters, although I don't think we know who they were.

3d annual votes (56 voters: Rob, NTSC-J, MadSteelDarkness, DarkWolf7, nZero, Ganelon, Shatterhand, Kiel, BrianC, Edge, Thunder Force, Bydobasher, Ghegs, jp, Ord, Angrycoder, Anarchos, BulletMagnet, parodius, Zach Keene, Herr Schatten, cigsthecat, Accutron, Blue Lander, Tar-Palantir, gs68, raiden, tehkao, mirkvid, GaijinPunch, IlMrm, jslithy, nullstar, alpha5099, uwfan, The Vagrant, bloodflowers, BUHA, chtimi-CLA, randorama, SPACE HARRIER, shmup-o, badaro, Super Laydock, CMoon, shiftace, sven666, SheSaidDutch, visuatrox, fraggore, zhon, sininenat, professor ganson, MovingTarget, Tychom, ST Dragon)

3d annual discussion

56 people voted a total of 261 games.

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4th annual votes (106 voters: Rob, zinger, Blade, IlMrm, Thunder Force, theevilfunkster, PlasmaBlooD, Turrican, chtimi-CLA, nZero, bVork, crithit5000, Neon, DC906270, BulletMagnet, jp, Lone Deranger, Dale, Ganelon, professor ganson, Fighter17, Gakidou, battlegorge, agony, raiden, sven666, russ, circuitface, Bydobasher, Shocky, Alpolio, Herr Schatten, shiftace, Marc, Ord, Edge, Fenrir, LSU, Grinning Cat, Shatterhand, NTSC-J, azathoth, chempop, ROBOTRON, bloodflowers, Shapermc, angrycoder, freddiebamboo, Neo Rasa, T-hawk, 5parrowhawk, llabnip, visuatrox, SPACE HARRIER, No_not_like_Quake, Vincere, Louisg, Ed Oscuro, sjewkestheloon, Tychom, j^aws, UnscathedFlyingObject, SteevTee, Dandy J, Valgar, elvis, ~Kid Icarus~, howmuchkeefe, Tar-Palantir, Thunderforce222, roker, AndyLee, Frogacuda, MOSQUITO FIGHTER, AGC, miroku, Ko.oS, Zach Keene, GaijinPunch, tiktak, ST Dragon, thefox74, Keranu, Ceph, BenT, MadSteelDarkness, uwfan, ghibli99, captain ahar, RoninBuddha, rolins, Super Laydock, ill6, Nullsleep, Ghegs, tehkao, BrianC, cigsthecat, dai jou bu, gameoverDude, nullstar, FraGMarE, plasmo, shmup-o, MovingTarget, oxtsu)

4th annual discussion

106 people voted a total of 336 games.

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5th annual votes (80 voters: DJ Incompetent, IlMrm, Ceph, battlegorge, freddiebamboo, Turrican, Edge, j^aws, Dale, bVork, Ganelon, Rob, nZero, zinger, BulletMagnet, LSU, professor ganson, Bloodreign, szycag, Dandy J, Twiddle, Herr Schatten, adam76, DEL, theevilfunkster, NTSC-J, AGC, angrycoder, Gorecki, javel, louisg, SPACE HARRIER, jp, Cyarc, rolins, Last Guardian, JoshF, Icarus, Arvandor, brianon, Danny, The Coop, Belmont, circuitface, Sonic R, crithit5000, Thunder Force, Damocles, jpj, rockaroller, HeWhoGoverns, Ayanami, MX7, SNKJorge, roker, PlasmaBlooD, maxi, RekLeSS, SteevTee, Ko.oS, ahnslaught, MA7, Krooze L-Roy, Zaarock, Batman34, bloodflowers, llaoyllakcuf, romanista, toby, Asherdude, Acid King, jeremycarrier, Michaelm, ST Dragon, Zach Keene, Radiant, cigsthecat, CIT, Super Laydock, Limbrooke)

5th annual discussion

80 people voted a total of 329 games.

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6th annual votes
MX7, Ceph, professor ganson, BulletMagnet, nZero, Herr Schatten, captain ahar, ForceDevice, kozo, kengou, HardcoreOtaku, Rob, jp, Dale, LSU, budloc, Arvandor, Sonic R, Enhasa, Ed Oscuro, -Bridget-, Ganelon, Neo, evil_ash_xero, IlMrm, Turrican, henry dark, skykid, GaijinPunch, it290, Shion, Master O, Fenrir, PROMETHEUS, jpj, nimitz, bkk, PlasmaBlooD, DeSangre, mikwuyma, maco, Mortificator, RGC, rolins, The Coop, szycag, Bloodreign, Dandy J, bloodflowers, BrianC, cigsthecat, ayanami, DJ incompetent, Michaelm, Josh F, ratlhead, Shatterhand, NTSC-J, Kindgrind, Gameoverdude, Ridley, Marcel1cc, oxtsu, zaarock, louisg*, bVork, SteevTee, Zach Keene, Thunder Force, Lowemark, maxi, Diogenezcharias, Coffeejoerx, Asherdude, Acid King, Krooze L Roy, Limbrooke, sycada, Slateman, MA7, ROBOTRON, J^aws, Super Laydock, CIT, DEL, P_HAT, Tempest, sioq, Zebra Airforce, zhoul, Spadgy, Seattlexc.

[Ed Oscuro]

I have some questions/comments on the graph of previous polls, Turrican:

- The hollow arrows are only the ones where a game moved up, right? Down arrows are always solid. I don't understand why this is, and it's confusing at first glance.

- It says "new entry in Shmups Top 25 charts (2002 and on); shouldn't this be "2003 and on" since all the games were new additions in 2002? No white dots in 2002, after all.

- It might be helpful to mention that darker entries fell off the list entirely in the next poll.

[Turrican]

I have some questions/comments on the graph of previous polls, Turrican:

- The hollow arrows are only the ones where a game moved up, right? Down arrows are always solid. I don't understand why this is, and it's confusing at first glance.

- It says "new entry in Shmups Top 25 charts (2002 and on); shouldn't this be "2003 and on" since all the games were new additions in 2002? No white dots in 2002, after all.

- It might be helpful to mention that darker entries fell off the list entirely in the next poll.

Thanks, excellent feedback! I will correct "2003 and on" and I will add an explanation about the darker titles;

About the hollow/solid arrows: that doesn't have any hidden meaning as you guessed. I just couldn't find both hollow or solid characters in my font book.

[Ed Oscuro]

Thanks! I really do like the graph's layout (since years past), and in my view it'll be perfect now. :)

[Arvandor]

Of course the big issue this year, as with other years, is that certain games which would -definitely- hit the top 25, and potentially even the top 5, are held back because people can't vote for what they haven't played.

This is indeed the problem alrighty. I'm certain, what with me being such a fanboy and all, that if I could play Ketsui, ESPgaluda2, and the Futaris, I'd probably have all of them on my list =P

[Turrican]

Hey you! Yes, you with the shaky hands and the nervous glare in the eyes... What is it guy, can't find enough good shmups to fill your top 25? This time you must vote for 25, no less. So, do you need an advice? I suspected so.

Here, a couple of links you'll find useful:

2006: A Plea for Salamander

2007: PARODIUS SECRET COVENANT / Cute'em up Affirmative Action

2008: Winds of Thunder and NEXZR Affirmative Action

Your vote is important, don't waste it!

Edit: what?? You still have empty holes in that chart of yours? Try these as well!

For EGA lovers: Major Stryker Petition

Be a good catsitter! Support Cats in Shmups!

[jp]

I voted for Abadox in the 3rd shmup voting thingy.

[professor ganson]

It's painful to watch people fail to adhere to the simple rules of posting a top 25.

Of course, this is stated by someone who routinely violated the rules for voting for games in our annual team scoring competition.

[Ed Oscuro]

Turrican: You forgot my Commander Stryker thread :(

I am serious about that one.

[Turrican]

Turrican: You forgot my Commander Stryker thread

I am serious about that one.

Redirect me to the game... I'd like to know more.

[cigsthecat]

This year I think it'd be nice to get a bit of background from each voter in this thread discussing the criteria used for creating their personal list.

I'm referring to your general theories that led to your current list, not an entry by entry explanation.

I wrote up my theory on this thing in the 4th annual thread I believe but I'll be updating that a bit later here.

[Ceph]

Pretty simple for me: I select the 25 games I enjoy most. No other theories involved.

[Turrican]

This year I think it'd be nice to get a bit of background from each voter in this thread discussing the criteria used for creating their personal list.

I'm referring to your general theories that led to your current list, not an entry by entry explanation.

Theories involved in my list:

A) Based on my experience. This is self-explanatory, of course I won't vote a game I didn't have the chance to enjoy fully.

B) A matter of taste. This is also quite obvious, I'll put on my list the games that I enjoyed the most among those I've played.

C) Balance in the list. Of course, I love a lot of games, this being my favorite genre. And I can't really do a strict top 25, because I couldn't choose among many of them. So I at least try to have a top 25 which is "representative" of what a like in certain quota. That is, if Ceph's criteria is direct democracy ("I put what I like, stop"), mine is representative: I put there a certain number of arcade titles, home titles, a certain amount of hories or verts, and so on for setting (cute, fantasy etc.) developer (Compile, Kaiko etc.) and so on. So, like in ikebana, the composition too must have some beauty, not just the singular entities.

D) Pioneers, Classics and Extra. This criteria affects long-living franchises. There are many games that I love that have gone under a long series of different incarnations. Just like chess, the fundamentals of the game stay usually true, but there are gameplay chages nonetheless. I'm talking of stuff like Gradiuses and R-types. For each of these brands it's usually a toss between voting for a "pioneer" title, a "classic" or an "extra" one.

-the pioneer incarnation is the purest form you can vote for. Obviously a first episode, you might be amazed to play it again and see how many things it got right at the first attempt. Looked in the right perspective it will make the sequels pale in comparison. Of course, this isn't always true. That's why you'll see many willing to vote for the "pioneer" R-Type, less so for the first Raiden or even the first Gradius.

-the classic incarnation is usually the crystallization of a canon by which the series is defined. As such, a classic is usually a qualitative peak and a jewel, not only by the series standards. The obvious example here would be Gradius II ~ Gofer no Yabou, which literally paved the way for things to come. Some series might have never reached such a state of perfection, in which case it's probably best to vote for the first one if you wish to support them.

-the extra incarnation it's usually less accomplished in terms of aesthetics, compared to the other two kinds, but compensates by adding all what you possibly dreamed for from that gameplay. These games are abundant with options and game modes, so that playing them can be like mimicking the first episodes, but also a totally new experience. Examples here might be Oshaberi Parodius, Gradius Gaiden or R-Type Final. Sometimes the sheer quantity of features offered by these incarnations is such that you weight them over pioneers and classics.

since 25 is quite a small number, voting twice for the same series feels like a waste, and that's why for each franchise it's important to distinguish what's the incarnation you liked the most. Of course, voting for more than one is unavoidable at times.

E) the final theory could be summarized with the phrases: "it's just a game", "let's have some fun", or "you're not alone out there". It basically means that doing a top 25 each year just for the sake of doing it would bother me terribly. Even if you try to be completely objective, you obviously cannot be. You'll be influenced by last year's result and such. And it's perfectly fine, because that's how it works, what makes it fun. Let's make a clear example: I enjoy DoDonpachi quite a lot, despite sucking at chaining. I also consider it a stunning landmark for the genre. If I voted alone each year, I'd probably find a spot for it in my top 25. But since I'm doing this stuff with you guys, and I see DDP already gets a lot of support, I can sacrifice it and put something more quirky and less known on my list. It's perfectly fine because as I said, I like a lot more than 25 shmups at around the same level, so I feel free to alter my chart however it suits me best on the occasion.

And that sir is, in detail, the criteria I use to compile my top 25.

[JoshF]

What about Mr. Heli?

[Ed Oscuro]

Turrican: You forgot my Commander Stryker thread :(

I am serious about that one.

Redirect me to the game... I'd like to know more.

Crap! I got the title wrong! :o
Thread (doesn't say a whole lot about the game though)

and...

THE GAME!!!

and...

The attract sequence in YTMND form

[The Coop]

My list criteria, in detail...

I rank my top 25 ones I've played from beginning to end by how much I enjoyed them (visually, aurally, gameplay and challenge-wise, etc.), and continue to enjoy them to this day. The opinions of others never factor into it, and historical context only goes so far. If I hated R-Type, all the speeches in the world about its influence on the genre wouldn't amount to much in my considerations. This is a favorites list after all, not a "Most influential" one. And if you can't stand a game, it's historical relevance won't (in theory) bring you rank it above the games you're most fond of.

So there you go. Not scientific by any means, but choosing my favorite shmups as of today doesn't require science. Just good memories.

[Rob]

Criteria for top 12 placement, my list:
-completeness -- graphics count (no: Giga Wing Generations), as well as a proper difficulty curve (no: Zero Gunner 2). Gradius V feels the most complete.
-longevity -- something I have or can play for years (no: most limiting score-based shooters, since they have you playing in such a specific way). Enjoyable any day.
-bullet reflecting

Slightly back to basics. More Psikyo, no #1 pick, and a few high placed old, simpler games.

[nimitz]

First, I am not 100% happy with my list, to make a better list I would need more time to play shmups that I know have potential but havn't dug deep enough to truly be able to determine how is every aspect of the game. Also the sorting could have been done using a more complex process wich would have took more time to make (maybe next year).


The list was based on overall quality of the said shmups, not simply the enjoyement I get from playing but all other factors included with different weights(for example the "Music" gets points from my enjoyement of it, the overall quality of the composition and the quality of the music hardware). Pretty much everything you can think about has an influence towards the final ranking.

So it is easier to point out the few thing that I did not take into consideration:

-If a game has things that stands out, and the rest of the game is relatively low rated the "stand out" points did not influence the overall ranking more than their basic values(for example Mushihime-sama would/should have been ranked about #22 for its great: patterns/dodging/level desing, but without these calculations it is at #27)

-The hardware the game was developped on was not taken into account, this means a 1987 NES game will be compared to 1987 Arcade games with no handicap.(mainly for this reason, my list only has 2 native console shmups)

-Influence a game had on the genre was not taken into account, at all.

-Also, I did not add factors to make the list diversified. having Gradius 1 doesn't influence in any way the inclusion of Gradius 2 and 3.

[Herr Schatten]

Criteria for my list: Basically, it's composed of personal favourites, shmups I had the most fun with. This includes old and obscure 8 and 16 bit shooters as well as more modern ones. Generally, I'm leaning towards simpler games this year. I also tried to somewhat "purify" my vote, so for example I exchanged Aleste/Powerstrike for the original incarnation of the game's system (Zanac).

However, the criteria Turrican described so beautifully also apply to my list. It's natural that if you like one part of a series, you'll like the rest as well. Therefore I only chose one Gradius, one Parodius, one R-Type as representatives of my love for each of the series.

The same holds true for developers whose output tend to be a bit same-y. So even though I like a lot more of their games, I tried to put only 2-3 from a single developer in my list, and only if those are not too similar: The three Compile titles on my list (Musha Aleste, Power Strike II, Zanac) all feel sufficiently different, as do Gunbird 2 and Dragon Blaze. Because I have put both of those Psikyo games in, I decided to leave out Strikers 1945 II and rather opted to represent the early Psikyo style, too (by including pseudo-Psikyo Sonic Wings Special, ironically). DonPachi, DodonPachi and Mushihimesama are my choices for Cave games. Given the fact that I try to diversify my vote, Mush seems an odd choice, but I'm mainly voting for Original mode here, so it makes sense.

I tend to like games that are somewhat original, so it might seem surprising that I put two obvious clones in my list, but for me, Shienryu is the better Raiden and Z-Out just needs more love, because it really stands out among the R-Type clones.

What about Mr. Heli?

It's considered on-topic, although it sits as close to the edge as In the Hunt does. Not that it really matters, since I'm pretty much the only one who ever votes for it anyway.

[Ed Oscuro]

Is Z-Out only for Amiga, or is there a comparable PC version?

I chose Shienryu for the same reason.

[Herr Schatten]

Is Z-Out only for Amiga, or is there a comparable PC version?

Unfortunately, there's no PC version of it. An Atari ST version exists, but it's supposed to be inferior and I haven't played that one.

[Ed Oscuro]

More evidence IGN sucks, then - they've got the game classified as a "PC" title. Hah!

Atari ST, eh, no thanks indeed.

[Shatterhand]

Criteria for my list: Basically, it's composed of personal favourites, shmups I had the most fun with. This includes old and obscure 8 and 16 bit shooters as well as more modern ones. Generally, I'm leaning towards simpler games this year. I also tried to somewhat "purify" my vote, so for example I exchanged Aleste/Powerstrike for the original incarnation of the game's system (Zanac).

This is OUTRAGEOUS BLASPHEMY . You should vote for Zanac and Aleste. Also vote for Aleste 2 because it's the best shmup ever.


Now seriously, I didn't vote last year because I wasn't around, but voted every other year. My criteria usually has to do with how much fun I had with the game when I played it, and how much fun I have when I play it now. It's simple as that. I usually tend to play all my fav shmups before voting, just to get some more real impressions of them instead of just memories (And that's how Battle Squadron kept losing positions year after year ).


And talking about the predictions for this year... if the voting goes anything like this year, I predict Dodonpachi finally losing its crown to Gradius V. If I had voted last year, Gradius V would had been in 1st place. Treasure probably will have 3 of the top 5 spots again, and Cave will have a fair amount of titles spreaded on the top 25... but that was easy to predict