We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

[Randorama]

it290:

Yes, that one, sorry. It is a great game with a completely over-the-top design style, huge and colourful sprites, special moves, super special moves, counter attacks, and...well, tons of stuff, really. Five captains are from past games of the Kunio-kun series (Kunio, Riki, Sabu, Misuzu, Shinji) and two are new characters (Kenji, Miyuki).

I generally think that it is a fun game, but players must really be careful about how they use counter attacks. In a nutshell: when a player performs an attack, you can counter the attack by performing a "ryuken/dragon punch" move (forward, down, down-forward+A or B, I can't remember). If the timing is right, the attack will be countered, and the attacking character will probably get the ball on the nose at a faster speed and with added damage. Now, counter-attacks can be countered, and counter-counterattacks can be countered, and...

OK, I think that the picture may be clear. Under certain conditions, matches can escalate into devastating counter-attack fests, often involving all characters in a team. Keeping track of the action might become a bit hard, as a consequence. An alternative is to simply land special attacks and get adversaries off-guard, but it becomes easier to win/lose due to timeout, in this manner (matches last one minute, on default dipswitches). Note that players can counter-attack super special moves, and deal tons of damage as a result.

Once you get used to the sheer chaos, it may be highly entertaining, even if the final boss/team is gloriously "cheap" (timing it out is the safest option, honestly). I definitely remember playing this in vs. mode and enjoying moments of pure madness, with one guy screaming "I have no fucking clue about what I am doing but I will win!" after a particularly intense counter-attack escalation

[Randorama]

Double post, but I think that Sima Tuna made a nice and highly relevant post in another thread (the original post is here):

[...] A lot of sports games use a timer, even really good sports games like baseball stars 2. You can't 1cc baseball stars 2 (I think) because you can't play a full game without putting in more money. It's a simple timer system. A game like that is, as others have said, unsolvable.

There are lots of arcade games like that, and others where your health always drains. Same basic idea as the credit timer for a sports game. Or I suppose, we could look at it as equivalent to those shitty mobile games that use energy bars that run down so fast to encourage you to feed in money. [...]

I was tempted to write that not many sports games use this feature, but I am not so sure about numbers. I am aware that Technos' V'Ball (i.e. their Beach Volley game) works like this, and that some early Neo Geo Sports titles also work like this. Examples I know are Riding Hero, which might qualify as a driving game with RPG mechanics, then Baseball Stars, Baseball Stars 2, Baseball Stars 2020, Football Frenzy. I remember that there were other sports games with timers or really strict conditions for progression, but does anyone remember other sports games that are "unsolvable", as ST defines them?

EDIT:

My apologies but Steven's point is really relevant to this thread:

If somebody is going to review arcade games from the perspective of credit feeding, you'd think they'd ALSO be aware of which games are possible to 1cc versus which are not possible to 1cc. There are plenty of arcade games you can't 1cc. A lot of sports games use a timer, even really good sports games like baseball stars 2. You can't 1cc baseball stars 2 (I think) because you can't play a full game without putting in more money. It's a simple timer system. A game like that is, as others have said, unsolvable.

Is it any different on AES or is it the same there too? Neo Turf Masters loses its timer on AES, so maybe this game does the same.

Well, Neo Turf Masters has really strict progression requirements, but in theory a player can 1-CC the whole four courses by staying well below the Par level. I believe that there are a few youtube videos of people achieving this feat (and, possibly clearing the game with "all Birdie/Eagle" scores). I am too lazy to check sources on the exact requirements, but basically a player always staying below Par should be able to play all 18 holes for a course, and a player winning one tournament can access a second, third and eventual fourth tournament. I believe that winning a tournament requires scoring Birdies/Eagles consistently, though, i.e. reaching final scores like -18, -19, -20 Par or so.

Still, Neo Turf Masters is an astonishingly beautiful but also incredibly hard game. I am by no means an expert on arcade golf games, but I suspect that quite a few other sports games (golf and beyond) might have similarly ultra-strictly but solvable solutions that lead to 1-CC's of some sort. As above: can you guys think of similar games?

[Sima Tuna]

I already posted in the other thread but yes, Neo Turf is totally 1cc-able.

I don't know why some sports games inexplicably use a shitty money timer that renders the game forever unsolvable, rather than anything else. It's a shame. I believe you can dramatically increase the time limit for sports games (and probably remove it for AES neo geo sports games that use a timer,) but most of the arcade titles still have a failure state you can't avoid if the timer still runs at all.

I believe that winning a tournament requires scoring Birdies/Eagles consistently, though, i.e. reaching final scores like -18, -19, -20 Par or so.

Yep. Birdies and Eagles will do it. I think you can Birdie every hole and you'll finish on a net 0 life loss. But you'll more likely need some Eagles to counteract spending a life here and there making Par for some of the asshole levels.

I don't know the complete list of arcade all sports games that are 1cc-able, but I bet LordBBH has a pretty good idea. He has a huge list of 1ccs and he's also made dedicated videos for a bunch of other sports games that either aren't possible to 1cc or that he doesn't feel like 1ccing.

If it's appeared on his 1ccBBH project then by definition it's possible to 1cc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRg8T5nm3dQ

I know I've seen 1ccs of neo turf since long before BBH had his video up though. Neo Turf is a popular game.

Blazing Tornado, the precursor to Fire Pro that we talked about earlier, also has a 1ccbbh video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmG3KHWRfvk

I don't want to just repost bbh stuff here all day long, so I'll just say anybody who wants to know which sports games can be 1cc'd should probably just check the search bar at his channel.

[it290]

Still, Neo Turf Masters is an astonishingly beautiful but also incredibly hard game. I am by no means an expert on arcade golf games, but I suspect that quite a few other sports games (golf and beyond) might have similarly ultra-strictly but solvable solutions that lead to 1-CC's of some sort. As above: can you guys think of similar games?

NTM isn't particularly hard, it's just a matter of understanding the math behind the game. If you bone up on the wiki and practice for a couple of weeks a guarantee you'll be getting at least 7 or 8 under par every game and should clear it before long.

[Randorama]

Sorry guys, and a double post to boot...

...I actually remember a video from a someone usually posting on neo-geo.com who recorded how he cleared all four courses with mostly Birdies and quite a few Eagles. I do not recall if it is on youtube or not, but I do remember him playing him all four courses and getting the first place all the time, with scores in the -18 to -21 or -22 range...and then concluding the video with a "thumbs up" selfie, I believe. He was likely playing the home version.

I probably forgot that he starts a new credit after each course, but I do believe that he played all four courses in a row to prove the point that, stamina-wise, the task may be feasible. No luck in finding it again on youtube, but maybe I am overlooking it. But still, we are talking of a 2-hours something "run", I guess? I wonder if that would count as "predatory behaviour" from programmers, making a game so enjoyable that you literally get glued to it for hours on end

Specific comments:

ST: actually, the link to lordBBH's channel should be a goldmine by itself if people want to dig up info, so thanks a lot. Still, I am not sure that a 1-CC by LordBBH is proof that humans can 1-CC a given game. I mean, this "guy" has 1-CC'ed The Super Spy and Crossed Swords if memory serves me right, so we may still need proof that he's a human (BBH, I hope that you do not find the banter offensive, in case you are reading this!).

It290: I admit that didn't edit the comment on time but yes, I personally find the game very hard if only because I really, really suck at using gauge systems. It is one of those cases in which I repeatedly gave up on getting a 1-CC over the years (decades, even) due to how tricky I found the basic mechanics of the game, even after a lot of practice. I swear that I will try again, before reaching retirement age. Or maybe after, as golf sometimes really strikes me as a sport for pensioners. Nothing wrong with that, of course

[it290]

Stick with the German—it's significantly easier to hit his MAX gauge than with any of the other characters.

[Randorama]

it290, Thanks for the suggestion and sorry for the late reply. I tried a few credits and I was getting decent results indeed. One simple question: which is the easiest course, in your view?

[it290]

They all have some tricky spots, but overall I'd say Australia is probably the easiest. Not too many obstacles mid-course and while water hazards and out of bounds gaps do exist, most of them are not too onerous. If you're not sure about covering a gap and you have the opportunity to cover it in 2 shots, I'd advise playing conservatively and doing so at first as an extra shot is far less punishing than an OOB. I would also recommend, especially starting out, to default to hitting the ball more on the HIGH side of the altitude gauge (but not into the red zone), especially with low/moderate winds, as this will prevent your ball from rolling as far when landing (due to a more vertical trajectory downwards, while also helping you to clear hills, rivers, and other obstacles).

Generally speaking, the basics to learn are:

• Shot power and how that translates to gauge strength, including 100%, MAX, etc.
• How different ball surfaces impact shot power. This is a straight up mathematical equation that you can do in your head. You have greens, rough, heavy rough, and bunker surfaces. Greens are 100% shot power relative to where you hit the gauge, the others are all some % relative to that which is dependent on the golfer. Rough/heavy rough will have consistent numbers, bunker depends on how buried the ball is in the sand, but you can deduce this from the little icon that shows the ball lie.
• Aiming, particularly using the putter trick and 'aiming pixel' which you can learn about on the wiki. Other things to learn about aiming are the hook/slice mechanics and also using the hook/slice arrow to help with aim when you can't use the aiming pixel because the flag is behind a tree. Most importantly, never trust the arrow on the minimap!
• Using hook/slice themselves, generally more as a tool to counteract wind than as an aiming mechanic — you mostly won't need to hook shots in low wind. It can be useful sometimes but is more of an advanced tool that you need to have a good intuitive feel to use.
• Wind and how to counteract it. You can find exact numbers on the wiki, but generally speaking a good rule of thumb is 5m left/right is equivalent to one notch of hook/slice, and 5m up/down is equivalent to 10Y of shot power, which you will need to factor into your equation when selecting a strength. For left/right you can also often use the hook/slice arrow in the UI to aim, where aiming to the middle of the arrow is 0m wind, adjusting to aim at the center of the arrow's triangle is about 2m, and the tip of the triangle 4m — so in other words using hook/slice to compensate for crosswinds OR aiming a straight shot and using the arrow as an aiming tool, but generally not both. Also worth noting is that the wind direction is relative to the minimap and not the player's POV, so if your perspective is looking strongly east or west you'll need to compensate, most of the time you'll be facing fairly north though.

Importantly, there are only a few RNG mechanics in the game:
• Your golfer's position in the starting grid, which doesn't matter much
• Wind is the big one — this is randomized on a hole to hole basis and will gradually creep up over the course of the round as a rank mechanic, but also some runs you will just have shitty luck and others you'll be blessed. Once you get to the point where you're pulling decent scores every game, it's generally worth resetting after 9 holes if the wind is being a dick.
• Hole position on the green and grain/direction also are random and this is why you need to pause and study the minimap of the green before starting each hole — there's no way to see it after the fact and you want to make sure your approach lands as close to the hole as possible.
• Topspin/backspin, which are an advanced mechanic, also have a random element in terms of how far they send the ball forward/back. I actually think this isn't really truly random, but there are enough factors at play that I think it's very difficult to calculate precisely so it might as well be random unless you're a total pro. One of the beautiful things about this game is how each layer from club selection to surface to power to wind to approach to bounce to spin adds a different layer of complexity to hitting the perfect shot, so by the time you get to spin I'd suggest just not using this mechanic unless you absolutely have to, because more often than not it will screw you over. Over time you will find ways to work it into your game more safely.

I know that sounds like a lot but it's really not that complex! LMK if you have any questions, particularly about the aiming pixel and aiming arrow mechanics as those are the most important ones to learn up front.

Also, I'd recommend going into the MVS BIOS and setting the shot clock to the maximum allowed value of 29m59s. This is allowed by the main online tournament for NTM, and doing so will allow you to think through your approach and experiment without the time pressure. Then if you do want to go back and get the 'true' 1cc with the 30s shot clock, it will be much easier to do so with a solid understanding of how to think through each shot.

Finally, if you use an AES memory card or enable one in your emulator, if you botch a shot you can reset the Neo Geo and reload your game at the beginning of each hole, which I think is a slightly more organic way to practice than using save states. Happy golfing!

[Randorama]

Splendid post, it290, I deeply moved by the huge amount of information about the game that you poured into the thread

I definitely need a better state of mind before I can play video games again without snapping easily (real life problems, etc. etc.), but this will now be a grudge that I will solve within the game's 30th anniversary. I am however listening to the OST these days, and there is something about the atmosphere that this game can summon that I find absolutely phenomenal. I would say that this is the ultimate "summer sports game", except maybe for Data East's Wind Jammers and probably some Sega sports games I am forgetting. I am definitely glad that I opened this thread, guys

[LordHypnos]

It would surely be an exaggeration to say that Virtua Tennis is a simulator, but I was recently talking to my brother, who was very into it back in the day, and he said that the more strategic elements of it, using ball placement to control the movement of the opponent in order to set up gaps, allowed him to do quite well in a badminton class that he took.

Do bowling games count? Any Hyper Bowl fans here? I haven't played it much, but it seems fun (I have the touchscreen iOS version). Would probably be at its best with a track ball (or the embedded bowling ball that the arcade machine seems to have), I'm sure.

[Randorama]

LordHypnos:

Yes, of course, Bowling counts, because it is a sport and we even have proof. Personally, I adored Neo Geo League Bowling as a kid, given that it has that bizarre charm of early Neo Geo games and uncomplicated, straightforward gameplay (i.e. it is the perfect arcade experience). There should be a few other arcade bowling games, but right now I can only think of Capcom Bowling, which was actually by Incredible Technologies, though Capcom distributed the game.

EDIT:

Puzzle de Bowling is an adorable combination of puzzle game (1-screen type) and bowling, too. We should discuss it in the “single screen games” thread.

Regarding Tennis: I believe that the Virtua series of games by Sega implemented basic movements and options that are relatively faithful simulations of a given sport. I recall that the Virtua Tennis series had some of the top seeds of the time listed as "consultants", in the game's credits. Of course, the "arcade" modes had to strike a balance between "realism", i.e. properly capturing the finer aspects of a sport, and "accessibility", i.e. giving players the opportunity to win without being professional tennis players. Nevertheless, the aim to create "Virtua(l)" replicas of a sport should have been part of these games

EDIT:

I admit that lately I have been mulling over the idea of going through all the arcade association football games released so far ("soccer", foe the miscreants). I find early football games (1980s, 1990s, and mostly 2D/2.5D graphics) endearing, even if I have this extremely schizophrenic relation with the sport itself (being Italian but not being "fanatic" about it, and so on). You have been warned

[1KMS]

I recently watched this League Bowling Perfect Game 1CC by Neo Jirou. Counterintuitive strategy. This guy's channel is a great resource for earlier Neo Geo.