We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Anything from run & guns to modern RPGs, what else do you play?
Randorama
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We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

It seems like we spent quite a few decades without having a thread dedicated to sports games that have 2D graphics, Wacky Physics Mechanics, Definitely Fictional Rules (shortened into "2DWPMDFR", obviously).

You may ask:

"What kind games of games are those?"

And my answer would be:

Anything that is 2D (or maybe polygon-based but with a 2D perspective), often 20th century arcade or old console, features balls or other objects moving in wacky ways, and does not exactly stick to the official rulebooks of the discipline the game attempts to simulate. The less realistic, 2D-ish and old-ish, the better. Pseudo 3D games are in, especially if they are wacky and have an arcade feeling. Let's just avoid the realistic stuff (e.g. EA/Konami titles) and we should be set.

Some examples:

I grew up having loads of fun playing brilliant classics such as Taito's Kick'n Run, but never developed a burning passion for Association Football (...by Italian standards, anyway). Baseball? no clue about the basics, but Baseball Stars 1 & 2 on the Neo-Geo were glorious stuff. I remember pestering a friend of mine who had this savagely fun Hockey game on FC. The first Kunio-kun dodgeball game drove me nuts because of its difficulty and addictiveness; I am pretty sure that I played some of the Kunio-kun FC sport titles and adored them to bits.

So, this thread is for this kind of games: no "pure" 3D stuff and no realism, though I think that the Virtua games are borderline OK (e.g. Virtua Tennis). No accurate physics for crosses, passes and lobs, but see the previous comment on borderline cases. If players can do silly stuff, then the games are definitely welcome (hey, Taito's Hat Trick Hero series has super-shots and a punch button!). The more flippant the game, the better!

In doubt, if it has that arcade/FC feeling and it is thus a Videogame rather than a "simulation of some sport to sell console units to the masses", it is probably in :wink:

See you on the field, champion :wink:
Last edited by Randorama on Wed Aug 14, 2024 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by sunnshiner »

Would Sega Soccer Slam be allowed here? Borderline case maybe- it's 3D but it's definitely not football as we know it, Jim (ie it's actually fun to play!) I usually shy away from sports games because, well, ugh, sports and TMFB* but arcadey ones are quite good fun. I'm enjoying the 2K2 series on Dreamcast at the minute too, but I get that they might be too 'serious' for this thread. There's definitely a cut off for me for sports games (games in general, to be honest) that have a fun element to them rather than just feeling like working at a job I hate (and am shit at) and I think it's around the 6th gen. Seems that as DVDs and downloads became the norm games just became bloated with filler marketed as 'depth'.

* Too Many Fucking Buttons. Guaranteed to put me off any game, no matter how good it's supposed to be. I just can not be arsed to learn that shit.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

I never played the game but from the videos it's a perfect match for the thread: Sega wackiness at its finest, and real-life physics seem gloriously ignored. Thanks for bringing this one up: it might be 3D-ish, but it seems to be the type of game we can include by being flexible enough with the "visuals". Also yes: 3 buttons tops for me too (4 for Neo-Geo games, OK), and if a 1-CC is possible, it's even better. We want to be world champions by playing 2-minutes matches, I guess :wink:
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Licorice »

Tecmo Superbowl for the famicom was the one sports game I really loved.

At some point I want to get into Sensible world of soccer.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Marc »

I just want another I.S.S. game. That, and WWF No Mercy on N64 was myself and my friends' multiplayer session every Friday before we went out for a good year or two.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by sunnshiner »

Marc wrote:I just want another I.S.S. game. That, and WWF No Mercy on N64 was myself and my friends' multiplayer session every Friday before we went out for a good year or two.
One of the best new year's days I've ever had was back in 1990-something. There was a load of us, all hungover, just sat there playing ISS on PS1 with each of us taking turns to walk out for McD's or Burger King when we got hungry. A couple of our friends just lived on our sofas for a couple of days after, we were all like, er, Stu, Ste, are you going home ever? :lol:
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

OK, I am resurrecting this thread because I believe that I could spam long-winded rants on a number of silly arcade sports titles, for the joy of the global masses. Please stay tuned.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Sima Tuna »

Oh man, I have been thinking about sports games recently! Maybe this thread could become a place for all arcade and unrealistic sports games?

One of my favorite movies of all time is the original Rollerball. And one of my favorite manga is Battle Angel Alita, most especially the volumes where characters are playing Motorball. I love dangerous, futuristic sports matches. What especially impressed me about Rollerball in the original film is a developer commentary discussing how these stunt men would actually play Rollerball for fun. The stunt team for the film with one of the best in the world at that time, and still it was just about barely possible for them to play and enjoy Rollerball. I think that excitement of watching a sport that required an excessive amount of physical fitness and knowledge, balanced on the razor edge of extreme danger, stuck with me. When you watch Rollerball, you're watching a sport that is both "realistic" (in the sense real people CAN theoretically play it) but also dangerous as hell and therefore unrealistic/untenable as a real sport.

Arcade video games capture that feeling for me. I don't like real sports very much (Dakar Rally is cool, for the same reasons Rollerball is cool,) but I love arcade sports games. One of my earliest gaming memories is playing the original Mario Kart on Snes, as well as F-Zero.

In the interest of getting some discussion going about what makes arcade sports games work so well, and what are some pillars of the genre, I'll post a picture of my favorite sports games of all time:

Image

I have a very strong preference for arcade racing over other sports genres, but I also love Kunio and SNK's takes on arcade sports games.

Some notes about my list:

-mx vs atv unleashed could also be read as mx unleashed, they just didn't have mx unleashed on the list
-all sports games with both arcade and nes versions are meant to be the nes/fc versions since those are usually superior
-katamari IS a sports game, fuck you dad!
-so is unreal championship, it has a ton of sports modes with different rules

FYI for those who haven't purchased the kunio-kun collection from arc system works, the best thing about that package is NOT the various beat em ups. Oh no, but best games on that collection are 100% the sports titles. You get all of them. Hockey, Soccer, Dodgeball, everything. Soccer and Hockey deserve special mention because of the sheer amount of violence you can unleash upon unsuspecting enemy sportsballers.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

Yes, the original intention was that. I remember playing the Rollerball-like game on Amiga to death, but I don't remember much of it: do you remember anything, in case?

I don't like driving games much, but I'd consider them a distinct genre. I am still very tempted to include some titles here (e.g. Mad Gear by Capcom) for the simple reason that I am not sure in which thread we could slot them, otherwise. The Kunio-kun games were absolute ace, and the only titles for which I'd bother to visit my rich, ultra-snobby friend who bought import FC games (..or so I believe: did they ever receive EU/US releases?). The whole concept of beating adversaries to a pulp seems to have permeated a lot of early arcade sports games: Taito created the glorious Hat Trick Hero series just for that purpose, apparently :wink:

I will write a mini-article on the two Dodge Ball arcade titles once I play them again. SNK titles were also glorious, so we could go through many of their titles as well. I am proof-reading one mini-article for a soon-ish double post, anyway :wink:
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

Capcom Sports Club (Capcom, 1997) is a mixed sports game that includes “mini-versions” of (association) kick, Dunk and Smash. The game is notable for its colourful, late CPS-2 graphics, mix of Latin Samba/Calypso music (pseudo urban techno for the Dunk game) and cartoon-like characters. Players can play against the CPU or in vs. mode. Upon starting a credit, players can choose which sport/mini-game start first. If a player wins a single tournament, the game will offer a prompt allowing players to end the credit or continue with another sport/mini-game. Players who can win all three tournaments (i.e. clear each mini-game) will be treated to the credits, effectively having 1-CC’ed the game. After each victory, players receive a prize that represents their cumulative score. Interestingly, players can choose three-letter moniker and sex after the first match won, and thus aim to get the best score/prize money by clearing each mini-game.

The idea of combining three games in one was not new for Capcom: Three Wonders in 1991 included an action game, a shmup and a puzzle. This conceptual successor focuses on three sports, and allows players to complete each game if they have the skills and interest to do so. In this mini-article, however, I will discuss how this game manages to handle the three sports in a delightful way and should find some time in your gaming schedule. Before I continue, though, a simple consideration: arcade sports games never pursued realism, at least until the advent of 3D titles such as Sega’s Virtua Striker. This title clearly aims to offer an entertaining mix of mini-sports and offer a quirky experience to players. If you need EA/Konami levels of detail and realism in your sports game, you can stop reading now….unless you are curious anyway, of course.

The three mini-games are called Smash Stars, Kick Stars, Dunk Stars. Once starting a credit, players can choose one of the three games, and then choose a team (Dunk, kick) or player (Smash). Smash Stars offers a choice between eight “beginners” and “advanced” players (i.e. 16 players in total), but only features ladies. Each character has differing skills (e.g. strength, control, “miracle” shots), even though one skill prevails over the others in each character. You will probably notice that the Chinese advanced player “Li Li” resembles another famous Chinese Capcom character. Kick Stars is actually a street foosball game: choose one out of eight national teams and their respective modules (defensive, offensive, balanced). Dunk Stars is a 3-on-3 street basketball game, also with eight teams, and with different combinations of power guards, forwards and centre players.

The games distinguish themselves in having quirky visual designs and adorable but somehow appropriate OSTs. Smash Stars features “chibi” (i.e. cute/miniaturised) Smash player ladies with small bodies and big, adorable hairstyles and eyes. Matches are played in quaint locations such as forests and beaches, while samba and other vaguely Latin-sounding music plays in the background. Kick Stars features lanky male players with disgruntled faces and comical running gaits. Samba themes go in full swing, and matches take place in down-to-earth locations such as beaches and small squares at night. Dunk Stars features triplets of male players with heads vaguely resembling Duplo characters but switches to 90s style Euro/techno beat, with the final stage apparently being a court on a skyscraper’s construction site. Players need to win three matches to clear a single game, for a total of nine games. A tenth match may occur under certain conditions: I discuss them after explaining the game systems, though.

In Dunk Stars, players can shoot for points with the A button, and pass it from one player to another with the B button. Three pointers are possible, but follow rigid rules. Depending on the type of team you are using, characters must be next to the 3-point line and at certain fixed spots (e.g. the lower right corner for 1P players). Shooting from a “non-designated” position will usually end in missing, though players can fight for the rebound anyway. Players can then shoot or dunk for two points, depending on the distance from the net. The B button is used for passing the ball or performing a “steal”, which is a thinly disguised slap on the hands of the other character (…or face, in some cases). Hold A for long distance shots and powerful dunks: you may even smash the net, in some cases.

A general impression that should emerge after playing the three games, or even just reading this mini-article, is that the Dunk and Kick games are really easy. In Kick Stars, a simple technique to score goals is to shoot at goal from an angle, close to the goal keeper, and then tap in the bouncing ball. Bash and mown down adversaries as soon as they catch the ball, and keep them under pressure by scoring goals. In Dunk Stars, let adversaries attack, then steal the ball before they shoot, and pass it to another player. A bit of footwork to dodge defenders, and dunk as you wish. Both games can however be incredibly fun when played in 2P mode, from my experience. Matches can be very balanced and involve a mix of dirty fights but also decent technical skills: players can enjoy the zany experience insofar as they do not worry about realism.

Smash Stars is a quite more refined game, instead. Each player has a mix of strengths and weaknesses, and there is a definite difference between the beginners and the advance players/courses. The CPU is also smarter: while the Kick and Dunk games can boil down to slug- and score-fests once players master the right tricks, Smash Stars offers a quite more advanced challenge on at least two fronts. First, the game has a flexible rank system. Adversaries will become faster and more tenacious if players core quickly and aggressively, but will suddenly lower their skills if players drop sets or simply play poorly. Second, dcoring points is not a matter of using one-two techniques, as in the other two games. Players must make an effort of controlling the flow of the exchanges and be sure to place the ball beyond the reach of adversaries. Aggressive baseliners will nevertheless have an advantage.

Depending on players’ skills and tastes, the longevity of the game can be surprisingly high. Perhaps the easiest way to achieve a 1-CC is to choose Smash Stars, beginners course, and then move onto Dunk Stars and Kick Stars. By playing the games in reverse order of difficulty/challenge, players should have an easy time to 1-CC the whole game. Changing order increases this difficulty, since the second and third games become harder (but Kick Stars is really a push-over). Throw in the beginner/advance distinction for Smash, and players have quite a few combinations to test their skills on. The really dedicated players can then 1-CC the game with each of the 16 characters, and eight plus eight teams: the game is easy enough and perhaps entertaining enough to warrant all this dedication.

Another aspect adding replay value to the game is the possibility to play against the secret characters: Melody (i.e. the girl appearing in the cut-scenes) for Smash Stars, the golden team(s) for the other two sports. The conditions for triggering these encounters are interesting even if flexible. Simplifying matter a bit, players must not concede any sets/goals/dunks, and must score points awarding high money prices after each match. When these conditions are met, the much stronger Melody/golden teams will enter the fray. Melody is a very strong, very punishing character who can only be beaten via specific patterns. The two golden teams are very aggressive, but also fairly manageable adversaries (…they just put up a decent fight). If you want a challenge, leave Smash Stars as the last game, choose the advanced course and trigger Melody after winning the championship: good luck on returning 1-frame aces :wink:

By this point, the obvious answer you will have is: is the game fun? My answer is: yes, why not? Smash Stars was ported as Netto De Tennis on Dreamcast, even though it was a fairly obscure release. As a stand-alone tennis game, it might remind you of many previous titles (e.g. Mario titles on the GBA, I guess). However, it is well-designed, simple and yet deep enough to be a full game on its own. Dunk Stars and Kick Stars are simpler games that vaguely resemble previous arcade titles (e.g. Street Hoop by Data East, Hat Trick Hero titles by Taito). They can be hilariously fun in 2P mode, given their flippant attitude to the sports they represent. Case in point, I had the pleasure to play these games with friends under various degrees of inebriation, and enjoyed their silliness immensely (“F!@#$ing hell ref, it’s a bloody penalty!”).

Another question that you may have floating in your head is whether the game looks and sound good, of course. My answer is that you must really be into cartoony design, pastel palettes typical of late CPS-2 games, fluidly animated characters and cutesy sambas and techno beats. I am sure that you can grow a taste for these aspects quickly, also because they are all well executed and accompany quite entertaining games. Be sure to buy a Capcom Home Arcade and have some friends around. I would also suggest to choose a summer day, or at least a holiday day that allows you to relax, drink, and in general approach the games in a completely careless manner. Perhaps you could play them at the pub, if there is a MAME cab around (we implemented an alternative, not-so-legal approach, back in the day…). Have fun, and do some real sports outside: you will be happier, I daresay.

(1916 words; the usual disclaimers apply).
Last edited by Randorama on Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Sima Tuna »

Randorama wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 9:13 am Yes, the original intention was that. I remember playing the Rollerball-like game on Amiga to death, but I don't remember much of it: do you remember anything, in case?

I don't like driving games much, but I'd consider them a distinct genre. I am still very tempted to include some titles here (e.g. Mad Gear by Capcom) for the simple reason that I am not sure in which thread we could slot them, otherwise. The Kunio-kun games were absolute ace, and the only titles for which I'd bother to visit my rich, ultra-snobby friend who bought import FC games (..or so I believe: did they ever receive EU/US releases?). The whole concept of beating adversaries to a pulp seems to have permeated a lot of early arcade sports games: Taito created the glorious Hat Trick Hero series just for that purpose, apparently :wink:

I will write a mini-article on the two Dodge Ball arcade titles once I play them again. SNK titles were also glorious, so we could go through many of their titles as well. I am proof-reading one mini-article for a soon-ish double post, anyway :wink:
I unfortunately have never played the many rollerball copycat games. The best of these looks to be Speedball. Ubisoft put out a free2payus 3d roller game that also looks very similar to Rollerball, called Roller Champions. Roller Jammer is on ACA, but I haven't played it.

One could consider racing its own genre (separate from sports games). But there are some caveats to that. Tony Hawk, Burnout, SSX Tricky and MX games are not just "racing." They encompass a variety of activities. There are normal race events, but also destruction derby-like events, technical courses (where the challenge is to not crash, think Excitebike) and points tricking. There's also the giant elephant in the room: Rocket League, which is a racing game with a ball.

Some of the Kunio games were released under generic names, like "Crash 'n' the Boys: Street Challenge" or "Nintendo World Cup." They are instantly recognizable as Kunio games, so I don't know why the names were changed. I don't know if the Kunio Hockey game was ever released in English.

There are quite a few nes, snes, genesis and amiga era sports games worth discussing. Even the humble Golf on NES is pretty amazing for its time. I assume because it is the prototype bone structure used later by Nintendo in creating Mario Golf. The GBC and GBA Mario Tennis and Golf games are well worth playing too. They're sports rpgs. Another sports RPG is Legend of the River King, which I've heard about but not played. Definitely not a high-octane arcade experience though. The best of the arcade fishing games is probably Sega Bass Fishing.

OG Xbox had a game called Deathrow on it that seems worth a look. Another one I haven't played.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Air Master Burst »

The only game that matters for this thread is Windjammers.

Okay, I will also accept Sanrio World Smash Ball.

ETA:
Sima Tuna wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 11:07 am OG Xbox had a game called Deathrow on it that seems worth a look. Another one I haven't played
Deathrow is a ton of fun, but definitely a fully 3D game. If we're doing full 3d games I can add a ton to this list, but I figured that was outside the scope of this thread.

ETA2: if Virtua Tennis is borderline then Cosmic Smash squeaks in, right?
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Sima Tuna »

Air Master Burst wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 11:48 am The only game that matters for this thread is Windjammers.

Okay, I will also accept Sanrio World Smash Ball.

ETA:
Sima Tuna wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 11:07 am OG Xbox had a game called Deathrow on it that seems worth a look. Another one I haven't played
Deathrow is a ton of fun, but definitely a fully 3D game. If we're doing full 3d games I can add a ton to this list, but I figured that was outside the scope of this thread.

ETA2: if Virtua Tennis is borderline then Cosmic Smash squeaks in, right?
I believe Rando said in his reply to me that all non-realistic sports games were fair game, excepting possibly racing games (as that niche may be somewhat exclusive to itself.)

Windjammers brings up an interesting question: how necessary is it for an arcade sports game to have fun solo gameplay? Because Windjammers does not. The Windjammers cpu is a huge cheater and there's slim to no actual 1p content in Windjammers.

As much as I have fond memories of playing Super Dodge Ball with childhood friends, that option no longer exists for me and it's nice to know I can boot up Super Dodge Ball and still have a reasonably fun time slaughtering the cpus with overpowered special attacks. Likewise, Mario Golf and Neo Turf Masters are enjoyable as hell in single play.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

ST:

I would consider Out Run a driving (simulation) game but the type of games you mention as Sports games, since they attempt to re-create certain sports in various manners. Genres in videogames tend to overlap a lot, so it's generally easy to discuss the game and then eventually decide in which thread it can attract the most discussion.

Kunio-kun games are legion, and I wouldn't be surprised if we could *just* discuss the sports titles in this series for months on end. The Hockey game was not released in the US, apparently. To be honest, any starting point is a good point for me :wink:

AMB:

I'd prefer not to discuss full 3D games if only because they may become prevalent in the thread. Old-school sports arcade games tend to be a relic of the past: this thread was a intended (and is intended) to be a silly exercise in gaming archaeology :wink: In the RM2K-whatever-is-called-thread, we also don't have 3D action games: we have a specific thread for those, somewhere. Nevertheless:

Virtua Tennis is definitely in, since it's that kind of liminal game ("3D" graphics, but essentially 2.5D mechanics) that I had in mind when creating the title for the thread. Besides, the basic game is as arcade-y as it gets, whereas training modes on console should be very RPG-like, if I remember correctly (but yes, let's count them in). Cosmic Smash is a bit outside this porous border (arcade? Yes! 3D? Mostly so), but I'd move it in a different thread at some later stage, honestly. This thread lay dormant for 18 months or so, and thus I'd rather split threads at a later time (if needed) than "close our borders!" now (but don't tell the local MAGA people!).

Of course, Wind Jammers and Sanrio World Smash Ball are in, and write-ups would be much appreciated. :wink:
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Air Master Burst »

Randorama wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 2:19 pm Besides, the basic game is as arcade-y as it gets, whereas training modes on console should be very RPG-like, if I remember correctly (but yes, let's count them in). Cosmic Smash is a bit outside this porous border (arcade? Yes! 3D? Mostly so), but I'd move it in a different thread at some later stage, honestly.
Cosmic Smash uses the Virtua Tennis engine and handles pretty similar. The only major difference is that you hit the ball at breakout boxes instead of other players.

If anything it's MORE applicable here than VT because you can't move on the Z-axis at all.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

Then it's all in! (I had to check a video because I was thinking of some other game, honestly). Old age and such :wink:
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Lander »

Oh, I do love to see the (re)genesis of a good thesis thread :mrgreen:

A tasteful list, Sima - Super Dodgeball Advance is always the first game to mind when wacky sports enter the picture. Had a little browse around the rest of the Technos Dodgeball games over the years; I recall the PC engine version had huge neanderthal dudes acting as heavies, though hadn't yet implemented irreverent OTT super moves.

Come to think of it, I ran across what looked like a doujin incarnation of the series some time later - a PC release, japanese-only, with all the spritework and modern style of Advance. Nifty for a bit of couch competition, but I must have mislaid my copy at some point. Might have been Nekketsu Kōkō Dodgeball Bu Remake, going by that Kunio mega-list.

Though I'm not sure I follow the logic for Katamari - it has ball, therefore is sport? I suppose I can get down with that, out of a general spite for non-wacky sports :)

Though Unreal is tricky ground - even if we're eschewing 3D, surely bloodsport would end up qualifying Street Fighter and the rest of the fitegame world?
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Sima Tuna »

Lander wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2024 5:53 pm Oh, I do love to see the (re)genesis of a good thesis thread :mrgreen:

A tasteful list, Sima - Super Dodgeball Advance is always the first game to mind when wacky sports enter the picture. Had a little browse around the rest of the Technos Dodgeball games over the years; I recall the PC engine version had huge neanderthal dudes acting as heavies, though hadn't yet implemented irreverent OTT super moves.

Come to think of it, I ran across what looked like a doujin incarnation of the series some time later - a PC release, japanese-only, with all the spritework and modern style of Advance. Nifty for a bit of couch competition, but I must have mislaid my copy at some point. Might have been Nekketsu Kōkō Dodgeball Bu Remake, going by that Kunio mega-list.

Though I'm not sure I follow the logic for Katamari - it has ball, therefore is sport? I suppose I can get down with that, out of a general spite for non-wacky sports :)

Though Unreal is tricky ground - even if we're eschewing 3D, surely bloodsport would end up qualifying Street Fighter and the rest of the fitegame world?
To be fair, I kinda just threw in Katamari. It has rules and you can play it against another person IIRC. The default mode is more equivalent to a rally race, with you vs the clock. Another game like it is Bonito Days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTiw-nywzLE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz7jWLQLA_0

Bonito Days is like darts, only you can fly/roll and you are the dart. It's a score chasing game and I can't think of a genre that fits it other than weird video game sports. :lol:

Unreal Championship 2: Liandri Conflict has a lot of sportsball modes. It's very much a sports game pretending to be FPS. I don't just mean capture the flag or territory control. There's nali slaughter, overdose and some other ball game you can play.

There is an arcade/neo geo kunio dodgeball... I guess it's sort of a sequel to Super Dodge Ball?
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I haven't played it, but have heard it's generally not as tight on the gameplay front as nes super dodge ball.
I could probably provide some write-ups for kunio dodgeball and hockey after I refresh myself on them a bit. Hockey is amazing and fits Kunio perfectly.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5DWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Sengoku Strider »

Baseball Simulator 1.000 and its Super NES sequel were probably missed by a lot of people who thought it was what it said on the box - a sim. It was actually full of crazy superpowered players throwing flaming pitches. That and Scheherezade were the only Culture Brain games I ever got into, it was a lot of fun.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

All good suggestions, folks.

ST:

Re: Katamari: to be fair, I would not consider it a full-fledged sports game, though I'd wouldn't wonder too much about classifications, once more. Sometimes it's easier to discuss a game and just decide that it does completely fit a thread than not discussing the topic at all.

Write-ups are all good, of course - I had to close the Kunio-kun wiki because I was moments from spending the whole night reading all the entries and doing some "arr matey!" things about the games.

Fun tangent: I know that some games have enough fighting/violence that that they could be discussed in a fighting games thread, but the spirit of this thread is definitely "all in for violence!". I mean, the hat trick hero series features punch and kick macros to floor adversaries AND the ref. If anything, we could spend a few months down the Kunio-kun rabbit hole of sports games precisely because of this reason. :wink: Besides, I played rugby when I was young and watched Ice Hockey when I was in Sweden. Rule-sanctioned violence is generally in, and usually only the ref knows the rules: players mostly follow fictional ones, when playing :lol:

I have edited the first post a bit so that we can avoid getting worried about classifying games - let's focus on discussing games instead. Please feel free to suggest a better acronym and title: I'd say that the thread is about "2.5D-PSeudo 3D wacky sport games", but everything else in the original slogan ("2D graphics, Wacky Physics Mechanics, Definitely Fictional Rules") is open for discussion.

Speaking of which: thoughts on the various Kunio-kun dodgeball games? I always thought that the final stage on the original arcade/FC version was impossible. I wonder if there are 1-CC videos showing how to handle the 6 ogres on the final stage with just 3 minutes (!).

The Neo-Geo title was over-reliant on super moves and counters (and counter-counters...) but it is absolutely hilarious when played at higher skills levels. We had situations while playing the game in VS mode in which we just laughed our asses off, due to the mild absurdity of the hits involved ("who has hit who?! I have no f@#$ing clue on what is going on the screen!").
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Sima Tuna »

I did a quick quarter of Kunio Hockey. Still fun. You have two buttons: one to pass/shoot and one to swing your club. The purpose of swinging your stick is to beat the shit out of your opponent! There is a strange quirk with the game... I think it's the same as other Kunio games, but I'd forgotten how it works. You kind of control the entire team at the same time (including movement controls) and the game will try to hot-swap you to whichever character is closest to the ball. Sometimes it takes too long to do this and ends up swapping you into bodies you don't want to be in. And it can be disorienting when you see yourself controlling the movements of 2 characters at the same time and not sure which one is going to become "your" character next. Catching a cpu who has the puck is therefore a little difficult, since you have to figure out first which character the game will body-hop you into, and then how to intercept the puck. There's probably an alternate control method that locks you to a single character. But this has the entirely separate problem of the characters all moving relatively the same speed... Thus it's impossible for a character on the other end of the map from the puck to chase down the cpu carrying the puck across to your goal. So I think the body-swapping is almost required in order to have any hope of effective defense.

The system works okay in practice. I just thought I'd make a note of it as a clear concession to NES limitations. With more buttons, maybe body swapping could be set to manual mode with an additional autopause feature for 1p games, which would give you more time to decide whose body you want to jump into. But that's just a thought off the top of my head, of how I'd change the system in a more modern version.

Moment-to-moment, Kunio Hockey is still fun and full of the hilarious faces Technos are known for. Beating the shit out of your opponent at round start (before even looking at the puck) doesn't get old. :D I think at one point, either one of my characters or an enemy was given a card and time-out (represented by an animation of the character tossed into a garbage can) for excessive roughness. :lol: I'm not sure how that works exactly, considering all of the violence is excessively rough.

Imagine my surprise when I booted up my Kunio Collection and saw a street b-ball game in there I had clean forgotten. So yeah, there's Kunio street basket on famicom. I don't believe this one was ever released in the USA. The name is Downtown Street Basket: Dunk Heroes or something like that.

https://kuniokun.fandom.com/wiki/Nekket ... unk_Heroes

This game defaults to single player control and 2vs2 matches. I left it on default and regret doing so. Hopefully there's an option to change to body-hopping, because defense in this game appears to be completely and totally impossible. I did a quick match against New York and got clobbered. My AI partner couldn't nail the easiest lay-ups, but the opposing team was hitting 30-foot corkscrew dunks on the 3rd-story hoop. Whenever I had the ball, I'd be immediately knocked down by the opposing team's relentless sonic the hedgehog strategy! There's a move in Kunio games where you can roll into a ball and fly forward. Yeah, that's the move the enemy team would spam constantly. 2 opponents doing hedgehog spins over and over whenever they didn't have the ball. :lol: Far as I know, there's no counter to that move... At least, there never was in River City Ransom. It was one of those moves you got out of the way of.

Running is a double-tap input. Computers don't have to double-tap. So computers will outrun you every time. Makes defense hard, doesn't it?

Even limited to 2vs2, gameplay is very chaotic. This one would be more fun against another real person. In Super Dodge Ball and Nintendo World Cup, the computer will actually let you win a few matches before bringing out the heavy guns. When the game is going hard from round 1, it's not so easy to learn the ropes. I'll come back to this one eventually and see if there are options or a training mode.

I play all of these games with sprite flicker turned off in the emulation. I recommend you do the same for your own sanity. Can only imagine the difficulty of avoiding enemy attackers or finding the ball when the screen is flickering like crazy. One of the aspects that works so well with Dodgeball is the game has almost a turn-based element that slows down play a little. Makes the game easier to follow and defense is also more a matter of timing than frantically trying to chase down an opponent.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by it290 »

Neo Turf Masters is the best golf game ever to exist. Endlessly replayable and still has an active competitive scene going to this day. Not sure if it exactly fits the theme of the thread, but I figure it's arcadey enough and if stuff like Baseball Stars 2 counts then Turf should too. My only beef with the game is that past a certain (high) skill ceiling runs are highly dependent on RNG and you end up restarting a lot if you botch a single hole.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Air Master Burst »

DecAthlete and Winter Heat probably qualify since they're basically just Track & Field with that delightful mid-90s Sega AM3 vibe. It has a button for victory poses!
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by guigui »

Speedball 2 was my favorite for a long time when I was a kid, on the old Genesis.

Could never the management mode though, players kept doing bad things on the playfields no matter how I briefed them. Gotta try again now that I grew up maybe.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

ST:

thank you! It seems that the AI works in a similar manner across Kunio-kun sports games. in the original dodgeball game, the closeness principle also holds (you control the character closest to the ball). The problem is that swaps can sometimes be really detrimental, since you may suddenly control a character that has 5 frames or so to dodge or grab the ball. I guess that Technos recycled a lot of ideas and mechanics across those titles. Certaainly the senseless violence! The Dunk Heroes title sounds a lot like the almighty Punk Shot by Konami: do you know it?

it290:

I certainly agree on Neo Turf Masters, if only because I keep listening to the OST from time to time. I remember that we had absolutely splendid afternoons playing the titles as teens ("how can we like...golf, so much?!"). I do remember that we had a review/write-up on this forum. Am I recalling incorrectly? Of course it counts for the thread, even if it is extremely sober and lacks violence of any sort (but characters should break clubs if they double-bogey, right? :wink: )

AMB:

Which ones are DecAthlete and Winter Heat? I remember Sega AM3 goodness but on Saturn. To be fair, I think that *any* 20th century Sega game automatically qualifies as arcade-y, to a minimal extent. Sega teams had a design philosophy/approach that really permeated most of their titles, from what I can remember.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Air Master Burst »

Randorama wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2024 9:27 am Which ones are DecAthlete and Winter Heat? I remember Sega AM3 goodness but on Saturn.
They were both originally in arcades on the ST-V. DecAthlete was called Athlete Kings in Europe, though, so that might be part of the issue? They're fairly basic minigame collections, but the presentation is fantastic. I usually take em both for a spin every year or two.

Would Pyre qualify for this thread?
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

AMB:

Oh, OK, then I know them but I never had the pleasure to play them. How are they? Please feel free to be as biased as you wish :wink: I have no idea about Pyre, but we can discuss it. We decide on yellow and red cards after discussion, I guess :wink:
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by miwa »

Great thread. I have a few titles coming to mind.
Back in the day, my brother would almost exclusively play sports games.
So, in order to play together, we had a few sports games we both liked and considered "neutral territory".

1. NBA Hang Time
I'm not a big Midway fan, but we had sunk hundreds of hours into the fantastic NBA Hang Time (N64 port).
It's fun to play against each other, but even more so in coop. The rank is brutal, and there's nothing more satisfying
than being ahead and trying to score even more points while the AI goes batshit crazy.

2. 2020 Super Baseball
I can't wait for the year 2020, when machines and humans will finally join forces in the timeless sport of Baseball :lol:
I got the ACA port a few years ago, and it was just as much fun as I remembered.
You can exploit the AI and pitch them out constantly, which takes away some of the challenge, but I still love it.
I need to try Baseball Stars 2 at some point.

3. Neo Turf Masters
As it has been stated before, this is one of the best Golf games ever.
I was completely addicted and couldn't stop playing until I won a tournament.
Serve me a drink that's as smooth as the NTM swing animations.
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Randorama »

Monsieur GuiGui:

Sorry for the late reply (!). Is Speedball 2 the one also on Amiga? I remember having the same problem, to be honest. I never figured out to convince the players not to be pointlessly aggressive, but I remember that it was a problem in the second loop (=second championship after winning the first championship). Do I recall correctly?

Miwa:

Thanks a lot. NBA Hang time was a gold mine for my uncle, as it attracted the attention of those people who wanted pseudo-realistic games (and NBA fans, of course). I do remember a few people snapping when the rank reached...snap-inducing levels, indeed :wink: I never played 2020 Super Baseball but certainly Soccer Brawl, which was another "'80s cyberpunk-style game plus sport" title (the name says it all).

Those early Neo Geo sports titles were definitely ace. I think that the Neo Geo had plenty of association football ("soccer") games throughout its life, some of them being more realistic (but still arcade-y). Data East also released 1-2 street basketball games on Neo Geo, didn't they?

A small tangent: the 80s style cyberpunk game was also ace. I wonder why in the '80s people thought that huge prosthetics and more in general very bulky, very invasive technology were "the future" (simple answer: to show off that we're cyborgs and thus new and different, but still...).
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: We are the champions! The 2.5-PS3DDWPMDFR sports thread

Post by Sima Tuna »

Futuristic sports games are a great hook. I wish we'd gotten more of those. I found out not too long ago about a pc game called HyperBlade. Looking at it, you can see the potential. But it's limited by the very primitive visuals of the day, and possibly also by controls (being a dosbox era title.)
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It's essentially futuristic hockey, and also conforms strongly to the rules of the 1975 film Rollerball. One of my favorite movies ever.

I've always felt that (arcade) sports games need an excuse to make the players (and the game) move FASTER. A futuristic setting allows this. You can give the players skates, jets, rockets, spaceships or anything else you can think of, which heavily modifies the base game. Rocket League is a good example of taking a standard sport (soccer) and coming up with an excuse for the players to move faster/more smoothly compared to the conventional game.

Faster movement isn't necessary for all games, of course. Dodgeball and Baseball take a pitching/receiving framework that I don't think benefits from excessive player speeds. But soccer, basketball, hockey and (american) football absolutely would! I would love to play a version of football where my player has jet feet he can activate for an afterburner rush into the end zone. :lol: Maybe the defenders could fire a macross missile massacre my way while I'm flying in. :P

My point is futuristic sports games kick all kinds of ass. We need more of them. The biggest criticism of futuristic sports games I've heard is that sometimes they don't change the original sport enough, so it is still kinda boring. :D
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Kunio street ball update:

There's no easy mode or training options. I looked up some reviews/articles about the game and now I'm really confused, because the people reviewing the game said it was very easy. So I must be doing something wrong. :|
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