What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[Sima Tuna]

So here's my "hot take" on that subject. I don't really believe much customization should be available. I believe developers should realise the "best way to play their game", and make that approach immediately obvious to the player via the game's inherent design. If the developer can't be trusted in their own vision, how does that reflect on the game?

The problem with this is when the developers are stupid and they think that, for example:

-party wide xp share for pokemon games should be non-optional
-wave dash should be removed from their fighting game because it's too competitive/sweaty
-higher difficulty modes should not be selectable in their game, period
-the game should have only a single save file which they continually try to make as hard to restart as possible, hiding all the options to do so behind what amount to secret inputs
-subsequent ports of their game should have all the speedrun/movement tech taken out because fuck speedrunners
-self-imposed challenges should never be catered to with game options because fuck people enjoying the game in a way the devs didn't think of

If you like games to be challenging, just know that Nintendo hates you with every breath in their hearts. Fuck nuzlockes, fuck speedruns, fuck the FGC, fuck people who play games on higher difficulties, fuck multiple save games, fuck restarting games from fresh for sequential full runs, fuck glitches, fuck anybody who wants to play and enjoy their game in a way that THEY don't like!

And you really think Nintendo knows the best way to enjoy their games? You think Game Freak does? I don't agree with that at all.

[Steven]

There is also

-can't customize controls at all

which is possibly the most baffling one of all of them in some cases. Not really a problem on PC or things without a whole lot of buttons like the Game Boy or PC Engine, but on more modern consoles sometimes you're just screwed if you don't like what they give you. You can use the system-wide remapping function that some of the newer systems have, but that's a pain because you might have to set it up just for one game and then undo it or redo it for something else.

[XoPachi]

Thing is, they have well designed gameplay mechanics and could function as good action games!
It's a self imposed challenge, sure, but I had a ton of fun playing Link Between Worlds on Hero Mode with the 3 hearts max (so basically, do anything you want, but don't ever pick up another heart container). When enemies actually become a threat, the game becomes a *lot* more enjoyable. By the last couple of areas anything can one-shot you, and it's really exciting. Compare the regular game where you can literally just bump into every single enemy in the final dungeon and be none the worse for wear. You wonder why the enemies are even there, or why they even bothered creating a functional combat system.
It's really sad this isn't just a built-in option from the start, for people who want it. They could do it and it would take nothing from the base game.

You're absolutely right honestly. I did the same thing in that and Link to the Past. It's just sort of unbalanced in it's own way because while it is exciting, it's not made for 3 heart runs and one hit deaths can be a bit wonky. But it makes you use more of your arsenal regardless. Attacks in Zelda are also fair enough that even dying instantly isn't terribly bullshit. Funny how, despite Worlds having the most broken sword in Zelda to date, a self imposed difficulty pressured me to consider all of my options. And I didn't need my sword to break to force me to do that. Isn't that a funny thing? Isn't that just so fucking interesting? :l

One thing that would have made these new Zeldas actually work for me is a time limit to kill Ganon as a difficulty mode. Something akin to Fallout 1. Either by in game days or like a 30 hour real time limit. I feel like that would have focused so much of the aimlessness, goofy mechanics, and given me a reason to give a shit about doing or not doing anything. Maybe a rare few safe zones that stop time flow but no way to reverse or gain more time. I just can't with these open worlds today and having no pushback or punishment for passive bumfuckery.

[Sumez]

The problem with this is when the developers are stupid and they think that, for example:

When developers are stupid they make stupid games, I don't like the idea that bad games should be fixed by the players.
Besides, Pokemon has way more problems than just the exp thing. As a tactical video game it's just poorly designed in general

[Sumez]

You're absolutely right honestly. I did the same thing in that and Link to the Past. It's just sort of unbalanced in it's own way because while it is exciting, it's not made for 3 heart runs and one hit deaths can be a bit wonky.

Honestly the crazy thing is I think it really feels like they are. When you play like that, it really feels like a perfect balance in terms of how combat, enemy placements and even healing options work.

[To Far Away Times]

I guess I play different games for different reasons.

I play Zelda for the “adventure” and figuring out the dungeons, but not really for the challenge.

I play games like Slay the Spire and pretty much all shmups because they’re challenging.

I like the way Nintendo balances the newer Mario games, with the first half being pretty easy and getting a credit roll halfway through. Then you get a long “post game” of increasingly difficult areas and eventually a secret world and capstone level that are pretty challenging.

[Air Master Burst]

It was actually meant as a fairly major release for the 64DD, and was apparently almost complete before all the 64DD stuff was scrapped, but there's a great deal of debate about how much of Ura Zelda (if any) actually made it into Master Quest.

Crazy how they just never went for it again. Like with any game.
Hero Mode is such a lame sidestep. I end up having to make further self imposed challenges just because dOubLe dAmAge in a post SNES Zelda game doesn't really mean much of shit.
But I don't even really want combat challenges as much as I want frustratingly brain melting temples. Harder enemies and bosses would be nice, but I don't exactly play Zelda for action, cool as it would be to get one with good action.

Anyway, speaking of action... I've been playing Fight'n Rage a lot tonight. The bosses are annoying but I've been figuring the game out. The mechanics aren't nearly as hard as the tutorial made it seem like it would be. I want to say I wish there were more combo options. I kind of prefer Panzer Bandit to this (not that they're terribly similar, but it's the only other beat em up I've played recently).

Between this and Zelda, it's clear we have very different takes on games. Fight 'n Rage is one of the best belt-scrollers ever made, whereas Panzer Bandit is basically just great value Guardian Heroes. It's not a combo game at all, though. Streets of Rage 4 might suit you more, or if you want something flashy, Spyro Eternal Night on GBA is fantastic as well. Just don't get any non-GBA version of Eternal Night, because they all kinda sucked.

There's also Linn Kurosawa in AvP, but she has a fairly high skill floor, and also you basically have to emulate it since the only port was that stupid Capcom Home Arcade thing.

[To Far Away Times]

Oracle of Ages is done. Overall, I think I liked this one a little bit more than Seasons, which surprised me. Ages does a much better job of telling you where to go and what to do. I never got lost in the game. No guide or hints needed and a very smooth progression through the whole map. There are a couple of bits with some jumps in logic, like leaving the Zora area to go back to the graveyard, but I remembered the Witch's hut was at the graveyard. Or having to do the sixth dungeon in both the past and the present was something that could have been a disaster, but made surprising sense with how it was presented. That's not to say it's all better than Oracle of Seasons though. I think Seasons has the better central mechanic. I could always tell what would happen when I would change seasons. But going back and forth through ages changes the geometry of the levels, which can feel a little random. Seasons' also has the more impressive visuals with its four color palettes, though Ages' underwater ripple effect does give it a run for its money. Seasons' has the better world map and overall scenario, as well.

I really liked Ages' puzzle aspect, since solving dungeons and puzzles is my favorite part of these games, but I didn't like it when the puzzle aspect crept into the boss fights. Dungeons six through eight all have pretty bad boss fights. Each one requires that you damage the boss with a specific item or at a specific time, without communicating what you need to do. Bosses will also hit flash like they took damage and will go into a very brief stunned state, but they only take damage when you follow up with a different attack while they're stunned. It's really not intuitive because tons of games do a brief invulnerability state just to reset the boss after it takes damage. It’s not like you’re ripping the armor off the boss or something else that would make them look vulnerable. The last three bosses are all poorly communicated and trial and error.

I played a linked game, so there was a three part TLB section at the end. There are more unintuitive fights in this section. The first form can only be damaged by reflecting its shots back with a charged attack. No where else in the game is a charged attack required to do this. In fact, twice earlier in the game there was a minigame where you reflect projectiles back with a basic sword slash. The game literally teaches you the wrong thing to do. Ugh. The second form does more of the hit flash but didn't really take damage nonsense, which lead to me dying several times as I hit the boss 30+ times. The final form was decent though.

Overall, better than Seasons but not enough to give it a different rating. 8/10.

[XoPachi]

Between this and Zelda, it's clear we have very different takes on games. Fight 'n Rage is one of the best belt-scrollers ever made, whereas Panzer Bandit is basically just great value Guardian Heroes. It's not a combo game at all, though. Streets of Rage 4 might suit you more, or if you want something flashy, Spyro Eternal Night on GBA is fantastic as well. Just don't get any non-GBA version of Eternal Night, because they all kinda sucked.

There's also Linn Kurosawa in AvP, but she has a fairly high skill floor, and also you basically have to emulate it since the only port was that stupid Capcom Home Arcade thing.

I don't mean to say Rage needs to be like Jitsu Squad or DMC with crazy juggles and Marvel combos. Because lord knows I'm kind of sick of endless combos myself. I just feel like I'm kind of doing the same one or two strings. It feels nice because the enemies are all different and the game is crazy hard, but I wouldn't mind a few more moves to be able to start a string or mix things in.

Also please stop talking bad about Panzer Bandit. Hurts my feelings.

Honestly the crazy thing is I think it really feels like they are. When you play like that, it really feels like a perfect balance in terms of how combat, enemy placements and even healing options work.

How'd you handle fairies in your run? You just skip them entirely?

[To Far Away Times]

I fucking love Streets of Rage 4. I think it’s the best belt scroller of all time. The art, the music, the gameplay, the difficulty curve, the boss battles, the online features… it’s perfect.

Fight ‘N Rage is solid. Cool combat system but I wouldn’t consider the game essential.

[XoPachi]

Hang on...this fucking Spyro game. What the fuck?
How have I never heard of this?

[To Far Away Times]

Hang on...this fucking Spyro game. What the fuck?
How have I never heard of this?

Yeah the Spyro GBA devs didn’t understand the assignment and went extra hard and made whatever the fuck they wanted to, but I wouldn’t have it any other way.

[Lander]

It feels nice because the enemies are all different and the game is crazy hard, but I wouldn't mind a few more moves to be able to start a string or mix things in.

Each character has an undocumented secret move or two, if you're not already familiar.

Always seemed kind of weird to me; the moves are the fun bit, so they could at least have put the secret inputs in as the reward for getting a black belt in training or something.

[ryu]

Mega Man on Gameboy. Man, I almost got past the 4 robot masters in Wily stage 1. Don't think I ever did that when I was a kid.

The game definitely gets easier as you acquire boss weapons. But then, it's a pain to use them because switching them in the menu is really slow. Especially since you can't open the menu right after shooting. It wasn't easy for me to switch from playing Buster only, but some stages feel plain impossible like that.

[Air Master Burst]

Also please stop talking bad about Panzer Bandit. Hurts my feelings.

Great value Guardian Heroes is still pretty good!

I fucking love Streets of Rage 4. I think it’s the best belt scroller of all time. The art, the music, the gameplay, the difficulty curve, the boss battles, the online features… it’s perfect.

Fight ‘N Rage is solid. Cool combat system but I wouldn’t consider the game essential.

SoR4 is a solid attempt, but the combo system is too strict and it's way too long to make for an enjoyable 1CC. Don't get me wrong, I still bought it day 1 and sunk 100 hours into it, but Fight 'N Rage is still the only essential belt-scroller of this century (with apologies to Final Vendetta). I mostly stick with SoRR these days, with the occasional run through 2 on actual hardware. That's gonna be your premier SoR experience.

[To Far Away Times]

I fucking love Streets of Rage 4. I think it’s the best belt scroller of all time. The art, the music, the gameplay, the difficulty curve, the boss battles, the online features… it’s perfect.

Fight ‘N Rage is solid. Cool combat system but I wouldn’t consider the game essential.

SoR4 is a solid attempt, but the combo system is too strict and it's way too long to make for an enjoyable 1CC. Don't get me wrong, I still bought it day 1 and sunk 100 hours into it, but Fight 'N Rage is still the only essential belt-scroller of this century (with apologies to Final Vendetta). I mostly stick with SoRR these days, with the occasional run through 2 on actual hardware. That's gonna be your premier SoR experience.

Yeah I would probably trim SoR4 to be under an hour long but there really are no bad stages or anything that is deserving of trimming. I think a Darius (or Final Fight 3) like branching level system would have elevated it that much more. Replays are already incentivized through the sheer number of characters, and additional level routes would really put it over the top with almost unlimited permutations of runs that could be done, without losing good content and keeping the run time lean.

Mega Man on Gameboy. Man, I almost got past the 4 robot masters in Wily stage 1. Don't think I ever did that when I was a kid.

The game definitely gets easier as you acquire boss weapons. But then, it's a pain to use them because switching them in the menu is really slow. Especially since you can't open the menu right after a shooting. It wasn't easy for me to switch from playing Buster only, but some stages feel plain impossible like that.

Each game in the Mega Man GB series is better than the previous one. You rarely see a continuous quality ramp across a series like this. Mega Man V for GB is legitimately one of the best Mega Man games ever. That game rules. I'm going through the entire Zelda series right now, but I did something similar with the Mega Man series too many years ago, finishing 30+ games including the 11 mainline games, 8 X games, 4 Zero games, Rockman & Forte, 2 Xtreme games, and 5 GB games, and Megaman V for GB was definitely one of the best ones and certainly surprised me the most. I guess I should get around to playing the DS games, but with the genre shift to being a metroidvania they don't really feel like they belong.

[XoPachi]

This Spyro game is a bit rigid but I can see this massively opening up later. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I admittedly just avoided later Spyros as a teen. They all seemed like shovelware cash grabs and he just got progressively uglier. There was also seemed to be this weirdly serious tonal shift that put me off.

[m.sniffles.esq]

I fucking love Streets of Rage 4. I think it’s the best belt scroller of all time. The art, the music, the gameplay, the difficulty curve

Actually, the one nit I would pick with SoR4 is that there's some weird, annoying difficulty spikes (these may of been smoothed with updates, I haven't really played since it was like six months old, and I know they kept tweaking things via updates)

For whatever reason, I was kinda interested in Star Truckers on Gamepass. Within 15 minutes I could tell it was the nadir of a certain corner of 'faux-indie' game development.

"Check it out! The interior of the cab looks like a Peterbuilt from the '80s. But you're in space! There's a radio with an 8-track player than plays original lame fake country songs... In space! There's a CB that seems about the same age and is constantly brimming with 'colorful' claptrap. But in space! All in service of weirdly annoying/janky/unenjoyable gameplay"

The kind of game that starts with a short/vague tutorial, then instructs you to read a eight page manual for the rest. It's like Microsoft probably gave you 6 million dollars to have this as a day one release, and you even half-ass the tutorial?

[To Far Away Times]

This Spyro game is a bit rigid but I can see this massively opening up later. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I admittedly just avoided later Spyros as a teen. They all seemed like shovelware cash grabs and he just got progressively uglier. There was also seemed to be this weirdly serious tonal shift that put me off.

One thing that really stood out to me with the old Spyro games is that they spent a bunch of money to get Stewart Copeland (drummer of The Police) to do the soundtrack. I don't necessarily love those soundtracks, but Copeland is definitely chiseled into the Mt.Rushmore of iconic drummers. That's a swaggy move, for sure.

[m.sniffles.esq]

One thing that really stood out to me with the old Spyro games is that they spent a bunch of money to get Stewart Copeland (drummer of The Police) to do the soundtrack.

Weird... Literally ten minutes ago I walked into a conversation, and this band guy (there's one of those goth/metal/punx/some combination of the three bands recording) was emphatically telling a co-worker "No current rock drummer uses traditional grip, man"

To which I said "Stuart Copeland..."
"Who's that?"
"From The Police..."
"I said 'current', man"
"I believe he still plays"
"Yeah, well he's like 100... Or it's a fucking gimmick anyway..."

(I believe this all in response to band guy's snare being tilted)

[Sumez]

I guess I play different games for different reasons.

I play Zelda for the “adventure” and figuring out the dungeons, but not really for the challenge.

I mean, that's why I play them too. It's just that I find it interesting that the games are well designed enough that there actually is a potentially really solid and somewhat challenging action game in there. But they just never cached in on that, because Nintendo of course.

[To Far Away Times]

One thing that really stood out to me with the old Spyro games is that they spent a bunch of money to get Stewart Copeland (drummer of The Police) to do the soundtrack.

Weird... Literally ten minutes ago I walked into a conversation, and this band guy (there's one of those goth/metal/punx/some combination of the three bands recording) was emphatically telling a co-worker "No current rock drummer uses traditional grip, man"

To which I said "Stuart Copeland..."
"Who's that?"
"From The Police..."
"I said 'current', man"
"I believe he still plays"
"Yeah, well he's like 100... Or it's a fucking gimmick anyway..."

(I believe this all in response to band guy's snare being tilted)

And I bet most people could identify The Police's radio hits with nothing but the drums. Try doing that with any other band.

I guess I play different games for different reasons.

I play Zelda for the “adventure” and figuring out the dungeons, but not really for the challenge.

I mean, that's why I play them too. It's just that I find it interesting that the games are well designed enough that there actually is a potentially really solid and somewhat challenging action game in there. But they just never cached in on that, because Nintendo of course.

Wind Waker has a sound effect that gets higher in pitch as you land consecutive hits in a combo and is such a great dopamine hit.

[Sima Tuna]

And I bet most people could identify The Police's radio hits with nothing but the drums. Try doing that with any other band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR-3r5Z9kqw

[To Far Away Times]

And I bet most people could identify The Police's radio hits with nothing but the drums. Try doing that with any other band.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR-3r5Z9kqw

Touché.

—

I stared on Minish Cap earlier today, and oh my god the sprite work and animation is beautiful in this. OST is tops too. This could be really special.

[m.sniffles.esq]

And I bet most people could identify The Police's radio hits with nothing but the drums. Try doing that with any other band.

I just know if that was the guy's response to "do you play underhand?", it's going to be a very long evening for someone (and I'm very glad it's not me)

[XoPachi]

I hate this bat boss in Fight'n Rage. This is not fun. I already didn't like the level. Felt like half my options were cut and I had to resort to tedious cheese tactics. Cannot stand levels like this.

[BrianC]

Great value Guardian Heroes is still pretty good!

Panzer Bandit takes after Mad Stalker, which shares much of the same staff and predated Guardian Heroes.

[Air Master Burst]

Great value Guardian Heroes is still pretty good!

Panzer Bandit takes after Mad Stalker, which shares much of the same staff and predated Guardian Heroes.

Panzer Bandit and Guardian Heroes both share a unique defining gameplay gimmick. "Plane-switching beat-em-up" describes like 3 games in existence and these are 2 of them. Mad Stalker doesn't really look or play much like either of them.

ETA: also Guardian Heroes was out almost 2 full calendar years before Panzer Bandit, and it's virtually impossible to find a mention of Panzer Bandit that doesn't compare it to Guardian Heroes, so I'm feeling pretty confident in my belief that Fill-in-Cafe probably just really loved Guardian Heroes enough to make a blatant homage.

And I bet most people could identify The Police's radio hits with nothing but the drums. Try doing that with any other band.

Mastodon, Rush, and maybe Blink 182.

[BIL]

Great value Guardian Heroes is still pretty good!

Panzer Bandit takes after Mad Stalker, which shares much of the same staff and predated Guardian Heroes.

Panzer Bandit and Guardian Heroes both share a unique defining gameplay gimmick. "Plane-switching beat-em-up" describes like 3 games in existence and these are 2 of them. Mad Stalker doesn't really look or play much like either of them.

ETA: also Guardian Heroes was out almost 2 full calendar years before Panzer Bandit, and it's virtually impossible to find a mention of Panzer Bandit that doesn't compare it to Guardian Heroes, so I'm feeling pretty confident in my belief that Fill-in-Cafe probably just really loved Guardian Heroes enough to make a blatant homage.

I always thought Mad Stalker (mostly familiar with its PCE ver) handled like a single-plane Guardian Heroes or Panzer Bandit, playing it some years after those games. The hit feedback and proto-ASW Gatling Combos, in particular, were unmistakably familiar. Of course as cfx recently mentioned, there's a good reason for that.

That established, GH and PB's planes seem less a Tenchi/Garou-poached gimmick, than a canny way to give Mad Stalking a little latitude without losing its sidescrolling brawler to the classic Technos belt.

This is something Dynamite Deka 2 ran afoul of, imo; sacrificing the original's unique "Virtua Chessboard" for more fluid but less tactically distinctive 3D combat. (I do think DD2 feels great to play, just needed correspondingly more aggressive AI+waves... the DC's Survival Mode is good stuff, especially since tearing through early waves brings heavy onslaughts to help close the gap)

[Marc]

And just like that, FUCK Returnal.