What [not shmup] game are you playing now?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Sure I could draw a real life map and cross off every single tile that I checked, but does that make for an enjoyable experience? Maybe if I played it in the 80's I would have looked at it differently, but through a 2024 lens it's pretty rough.

You're not wrong that mechanically it's rough around the edges, but consider the scale and scope of the game at the time it was made (2 loops with entirely unique game worlds and dungeons!) and how freeform progression through dungeons could be, and I think it can be forgiven for its imperfections. Also note that at the time many games already existed that expected the player to draw their own maps (dungeon crawlers such as the Wizardry games) so I suspect there was some degree of expectation that the player would make notes while playing. Or, that you'd chat with friends playing the game and compare notes.

For what it's worth, trees can be ignored until you have the red candle, which vastly speeds up finding secrets in trees. It's only finding entrances via bombs that's really a nuisance (though the Red Candle shows up in Level 7, positioned too late in the game imo). If the game had some way of poking walls or trees to figure out if there was a secret under it, that would've entirely solved the issue. Once you have an idea of where everything is, that removes a very rough element, and you can appreciate the freedom of which dungeons to do in which order more easily. Using a guide just for the world map and not for the dungeons would be a good compromise.

Dungeon rooms are much less of a hassle as there's only a handful of walls to check in each room and often bombs are easy to refill in dungeons (moreso than from random enemies outside).

edit: The only really mission-critical stuff you can find by bombing or burning stuff are heart containers and dungeons, and you don't even need all the heart containers to beat the game. There's only like 2 hidden behind bombing and 1 behind a tree, with the dungeons in the first quest being more conspicuous. One of the dungeons in loop 2 is particularly rough to find, being in a very nondescript wall, but at least you don't have to bomb it each time you enter the screen or something!

I agree with the comments about Link's Awakening being high quality. My only complaint was that it was a bit too easy, and also that the items that provide power or defense boosts until you get hit 3 times change the music so you can be stuck hearing that way too much.

I actually never got to own a copy of the GBC games so I'm currently playing through them on Switch. Question for vets: is there a recommended order? Do I play through them both twice, alternating which I start with? I've been made aware there's a password system as well, anything weird worth knowing about?

[Air Master Burst]

Link to the Past and Link's Awakening are what all other Zelda games are judged against, and the Oracle games are as close as they ever got.

Bumped the cart or something?

Stepped on the reset button like a punk.

The spin attack isn't frequently useful but has moments. I usually use it against the train boss.

[To Far Away Times]

Which did you play again?

The NES games, the N64 games, Awakening, Skyward Sword, Wind Waker, and...?

The only ones I have left are the two Oracle games Minish Cap, and Spirit Tracks.

I didn’t do any master quests or second loops.

[Sima Tuna]

I actually never got to own a copy of the GBC games so I'm currently playing through them on Switch. Question for vets: is there a recommended order? Do I play through them both twice, alternating which I start with? I've been made aware there's a password system as well, anything weird worth knowing about?

It's been a really long time since I played, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I BELIEVE the correct way to play them is to pick your starting game of choice, play that to the end, then go to the next game with carry-over. Beat that game to get the 2-game conclusion. Then you can decide if you want to go back and beat the 2 games in the reverse order to what you did the first time. There might be extra content (TLB) for doing a double completion but I don't know. I know there's a TLB for the end of the 2-game series, but I don't know about any extra content beyond that.

Basically, I would see if you like the games first, before worrying about getting perfect completionist runs. Beating the two games (in either order) is a long enough job. These are big games for GBC.

My personal play order is to start with the game you like the least, so you can end with the game you like the most. They're both good games, but everyone is going to have their own preference. If only based on the gimmicks being different in the two games (seasons vs time travel.)

[Lander]

I actually never got to own a copy of the GBC games so I'm currently playing through them on Switch. Question for vets: is there a recommended order?

I remember this coming up before, with deets courtsey of Sumez:

They are two complete and thorough games, entirely different from each other. And if you do the linking thing to play them on order, I really recommend starting with Seasons.
The reason being that you'll be a bit OP on the second game you're playing, and that would mitigate some of Seasons' strengths. Ages works fine with it.

[Air Master Burst]

Yeah Sumez nailed it, start with Seasons. I personally prefer it to Ages but it's a much easier game, and won't be nearly as satisfying if you do Ages first.

[XoPachi]

Seasons is kind of crazy, because on top of the season switching and the region that changes based on your animal partner, there's also Subrosia making for absurd variety in world design. Genuinely impressive what Capcom pulled off.

[Sumez]

I really need to get around to Returnal - had an eye on that shiny PC version for ages now. Roguey stuff isn't usually my bag, but it looks awesome, and Housemarque are a studio well worth their salt for pure action.

I know it's a tired old subject to compare the modern Roguelike trend with classic Arcade style design, but in the case of Returnal it really did feel to me like the dev's primary objective with structuring it as a "roguelite", was entirely to condition players into accepting that dying as a boss fight will send you back to the beginning, and not just respawn outside the door. The boss fights aren't particularly hard, but the stakes being higher just makes them way more exciting.
Returnal is a great game despite being a roguelite, not because of it. All of its qualities lie in the core gameplay, and they are unmitigated.

[Sumez]

I knew coming down harsh on Zelda 1 wouldn't go over very well, but I just felt the game's mechanics were at odds with it's goals of exploration. It's not even the good kind of discovery where you have an "ah-ha moment" and solve a puzzle. It's literally just checking nondescript wall and forest tiles in a very time consuming way and the relief that this random tile was the right one. Sure I could draw a real life map and cross off every single tile that I checked, but does that make for an enjoyable experience? Maybe if I played it in the 80's I would have looked at it differently, but through a 2024 lens it's pretty rough.

Don't worry, I'm on the same page as you about Zelda 1. I just don't talk about it a lot for the same reasons
I love Zelda 2 however.

[XoPachi]

Playing Big Catch's prologue again and I cannot wait for the full game, my God.
I know collecting stuff is generally looked down among niches these days. But I like finding stuff sometimes. Especially in a game like this where there's a final, difficult challenge steeped in mystery as a reward for finding everything.

[Turrican]

Are the Cladun games worth a try?

Specifically in their PSP/PsVita portable incarnations?

Yes, they are still on the EU PSN store which may or may not shut down this year. So I figured out, let's have a look.

I'm a bit torn where to start though, as the third entry (Sengoku) seems to have been kinda ignored by the fandom (not being by System Prisma themselves): is that a case of a bastardization of the original offer, or more simply a case of enthusiasm waned after three too similar entries?

[To Far Away Times]

Ok, five dungeons in on Seasons. I am getting lost after every dungeon, but… no guide so far.

If Ages is that much tougher I may have to bite the bullet.

[Sima Tuna]

Ok, five dungeons in on Seasons. I am getting lost after every dungeon, but… no guide so far.

If Ages is that much tougher I may have to bite the bullet.

In my opinion, Ages has harder puzzles but the same or slightly easier combat.

[Sumez]

I don't remember getting lost in either game. You pretty much need to go anywhere you can anyway.
Seasons is the tougher game for sure, but that's in terms of pure gameplay. Ages is typically reported to be the more puzzle-heavy game, but I think both of them has great puzzles.

[Air Master Burst]

Are the Cladun games worth a try?

It's basically an ARPG Disgaea that focuses on character customization. If you don't want to spend hours digging through sprites to find the perfect hair and clothing combo probably don't bother. If you DO want that, it's phenomenal.

Haven't played 2 or Sengoku, though.

[XoPachi]

Cladun is a throwback. I used to play that in high school a shit ton.

[To Far Away Times]

Just finished up Oracle of Seasons. Fun game. Was a little more difficult and exhausting than I expected. I got lost a bunch too, but I didn’t use a guide. I did get one hint but it was fairly subtle. Some of the dungeon items were pretty great, in particular the magnet gloves were amazing. Some very good puzzles in this too, especially towards the back half of the game.

While it’s very much based on the Link’s Awakening template, and has amazing production values, I don’t think this one hit the same high notes as Link’s Awakening did for me. Something about how it kinda expects you to get lost and traverse the same areas over and over drags it down a little bit for me. I would have appreciated a bit more direction in a few spots. But all that backtracking meant I was only 1/4 of a heart piece away from the whole set (I have no idea where it is). There was a ton of great stuff crammed into this game, but at the same time, I would have appreciated if it was a little leaner. Still a very good game though and impossibly good for a Gameboy Color game. 8/10.

[XoPachi]

You are really blowing through these games. lmao

[To Far Away Times]

You are really blowing through these games. lmao

Yeah, going through an unfortunate bit of unemployment as well as a knee injury, so I’ve had more time on my hands than usual.

[Gamer707b]

Been playing Shadow Of The Ninja Reborn since it came out a few days ago. I will say each game that comes out from Tengo Project is better than the last. This might be there best release yet. The other 3 were remakes of 16-bit games. This is a reboot of an old 8-bit NES game. They even put new sections in the game and a whole new level. Sorry for the gushing guys. Anyway, I'm on the last level. Tough, but very fun game. Love the trial and error gameplay. Bosses are also really fun and satisfying to learn.

[Gamer707b]

Just finished up Oracle of Seasons. Fun game. Was a little more difficult and exhausting than I expected. I got lost a bunch too, but I didn’t use a guide. I did get one hint but it was fairly subtle. Some of the dungeon items were pretty great, in particular the magnet gloves were amazing. Some very good puzzles in this too, especially towards the back half of the game.

While it’s very much based on the Link’s Awakening template, and has amazing production values, I don’t think this one hit the same high notes as Link’s Awakening did for me. Something about how it kinda expects you to get lost and traverse the same areas over and over drags it down a little bit for me. I would have appreciated a bit more direction in a few spots. But all that backtracking meant I was only 1/4 of a heart piece away from the whole set (I have no idea where it is). There was a ton of great stuff crammed into this game, but at the same time, I would have appreciated if it was a little leaner. Still a very good game though and impossibly good for a Gameboy Color game. 8/10.

I've had the cart for years and go back and forth with it. Definitely not as smooth an experience as LttP or Link's Awakening. Not sure either if I like it as much as Oracle Of Ages. Maybe it's my age, but I just don't have the patience to get lost for hours trying to figure everything out. I do use a guide in this game just to nudge me in the right direction. Hey, sorry to hear about your job loss btw. I hope you can get yourself going soon. One good thing about it is you get to catch up on some old games.

[To Far Away Times]

I've had the cart for years and go back and forth with it. Definitely not as smooth an experience as LttP or Link's Awakening. Not sure either if I like it as much as Oracle Of Ages. Maybe it's my age, but I just don't have the patience to get lost for hours trying to figure everything out. I do use a guide in this game just to nudge me in the right direction. Hey, sorry to hear about your job loss btw. I hope you can get yourself going soon. One good thing about it is you get to catch up on some old games.

Thanks

I started Oracle of Ages yesterday and made surprising progress through the first four dungeons. Ages seems to be much better about telling you where to go, at least so far. I've also learned to take copious notes of what NPC's say and I'm also keeping a list of things to track in both the past and the present. I like the puzzle focus as well. If the second half of this game is as strong as the first half I think this one would be a bit above Oracle of Seasons. We'll see how it shakes out.

[Sumez]

You did start Oracle of Ages with carry-over data, right?

[XoPachi]

I didn’t do any master quests...

OoT Master Quest is really not worth the time to me as much as I wish they would do something like that again (and better).
I went through it last year because I realize I never did and it's not even particularly more difficult. It's purely an arrangement and only the temples as far as I'm concerned. But the arranges aren't harder so much as they're just sort of...memes.
Jabu will have cows lodged in his stomach lining and you have to think to shoot the poor things to open the door. Or they put enough Armos in the room to bring the game to single digit frames if you wake them all at once. But they're Armos, so it looks intimidating, but it's nothing 3 bombs won't clear.

The actual rooms themselves aren't switched around at all, there's just switched up puzzle orders where possible within the layout and sometimes a ReDead will be in a box or something.
The points where you could get stuck, it's only because they'll put a crystal or torch you need to hit WAAAAAY up high and out of sight. But you just look around in first person and you'll likely find what's impeding progress in like 10 seconds. In some cases the game is actually even easier, like getting the Megaton Hammer. The whole of the Water Temple was shockingly easy. A relief to many, I'm sure.

Some puzzles and combat scenarios are very clearly not meant for the areas they're shoved in because the camera is often pushed beyond what it's meant for. It was definitely just some cheeky side content to further justify a GameCube port of the game. Feels like something fans would do honestly.

[Air Master Burst]

It was definitely just some cheeky side content to further justify a GameCube port of the game. Feels like something fans would do honestly.

It was actually meant as a fairly major release for the 64DD, and was apparently almost complete before all the 64DD stuff was scrapped, but there's a great deal of debate about how much of Ura Zelda (if any) actually made it into Master Quest.

[To Far Away Times]

You did start Oracle of Ages with carry-over data, right?

Yeah, it’s really cool how the second game will reference what happened in the first one. I got a few items too, a larger ring box, the biggoron sword and a few others.

[XoPachi]

It was actually meant as a fairly major release for the 64DD, and was apparently almost complete before all the 64DD stuff was scrapped, but there's a great deal of debate about how much of Ura Zelda (if any) actually made it into Master Quest.

Crazy how they just never went for it again. Like with any game.
Hero Mode is such a lame sidestep. I end up having to make further self imposed challenges just because dOubLe dAmAge in a post SNES Zelda game doesn't really mean much of shit.
But I don't even really want combat challenges as much as I want frustratingly brain melting temples. Harder enemies and bosses would be nice, but I don't exactly play Zelda for action, cool as it would be to get one with good action.

Anyway, speaking of action... I've been playing Fight'n Rage a lot tonight. The bosses are annoying but I've been figuring the game out. The mechanics aren't nearly as hard as the tutorial made it seem like it would be. I want to say I wish there were more combo options. I kind of prefer Panzer Bandit to this (not that they're terribly similar, but it's the only other beat em up I've played recently).

[Sumez]

Crazy how they just never went for it again. Like with any game.
Hero Mode is such a lame sidestep. I end up having to make further self imposed challenges just because dOubLe dAmAge in a post SNES Zelda game doesn't really mean much of shit.
But I don't even really want combat challenges as much as I want frustratingly brain melting temples. Harder enemies and bosses would be nice, but I don't exactly play Zelda for action, cool as it would be to get one with good action.

Thing is, they have well designed gameplay mechanics and could function as good action games!
It's a self imposed challenge, sure, but I had a ton of fun playing Link Between Worlds on Hero Mode with the 3 hearts max (so basically, do anything you want, but don't ever pick up another heart container). When enemies actually become a threat, the game becomes a *lot* more enjoyable. By the last couple of areas anything can one-shot you, and it's really exciting. Compare the regular game where you can literally just bump into every single enemy in the final dungeon and be none the worse for wear. You wonder why the enemies are even there, or why they even bothered creating a functional combat system.
It's really sad this isn't just a built-in option from the start, for people who want it. They could do it and it would take nothing from the base game.

[Sima Tuna]

It's really sad this isn't just a built-in option from the start, for people who want it. They could do it and it would take nothing from the base game.

You could be talking about any Nintendo game with this criticism. I've said these exact same two sentences repeatedly about Pokemon and Smash Bros. Nintendo's big thing (that I wish they'd stop doing) is their refusal to allow people to customize their play experience with Nintendo games.

[Sumez]

So here's my "hot take" on that subject. I don't really believe much customization should be available. I believe developers should realise the "best way to play their game", and make that approach immediately obvious to the player via the game's inherent design. If the developer can't be trusted in their own vision, how does that reflect on the game?

The more you can customize a game, the less of a clear-cut objective is provided. Link Between Worlds already does allow you to customize the experience by doing the thing I said. What I'm missing is a laser-focused mode that actively restricts the player in what they can do. Also for a game of this length, it shouldn't be required to complete the game before the ability to do so even gets unlocked.