Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

[MJR]

Did I just read someone comparing mainstream gaming to a destruction of biodiversity?!??



Never change, lunatics of shmups forum!

[Kino]

ScHlAuChi's here defending himself and his channel from assorted accusations of cheating and other foul play with hardly anyone grasping that the "cheating" described would not be perceived as such to virtually anyone outside of this obscure little bubble.

Sorry, in what universe is the usage of savestates and slowdown not considered a form of cheating? Remind us who's inside a bubble again?

[banjoted]

ScHlAuChi's here defending himself and his channel from assorted accusations of cheating and other foul play with hardly anyone grasping that the "cheating" described would not be perceived as such to virtually anyone outside of this obscure little bubble.

Sorry, in what universe is the usage of savestates and slowdown not considered a form of cheating? Remind us who's inside a bubble again?

I genuinely don't know if you're being willfully obtuse or if you genuinely have so spectacularly missed the point.

[maximo310]

There's nothing obtuse about what he just said lmfao

[Kino]

I genuinely don't know if you're being willfully obtuse or if you genuinely have so spectacularly missed the point.

You didn't make one.

Now, if you'd like to substantiate the "real, tangible things" Schlauchi has done for this community, or how the belief that savestating/running a game at 10% speed being a form of cheating is a "niche view", I'm all ears.

[Eyvah_Ehyeh]

To cheat, one has be in a space that has clear stipulations concerning what is, or isn't cheating. I guess the problem comes down to what space a thing is made in, what rules such a space has, and, related to that, what assumptions can be made concerning the knowledge of the people within that space, and whether they even care enough to have given it any thought how the footage has been created, meaning why the people watch it to begin with.

It would be interesting to make a poll on the youtube channel we've been discussing to see how many people realize what it is that they're watching, if they know that for example save states have been utilized in the production of the footage in question. Now, one could argue that insofar as nobody has clearly stated that a run isn't cheated, then the onus is on the viewer for making assumptions that it's not, but that brings up the question whether such an approach is tenable, honorable, or what have you - transparent enough to be considered honest, and productive. At the very least *I* would have made a "check" of some sorts amongst my subscribers. Like maybe the opinion of people in this space doesn't matter since it seems that it's very niche compared to the total sum of viewers in question, but I for one would be curious to understand more clearly just what is actually communicated clearly, and whether the precautions already taken are enough - not as a response to this here little community where the whole thing is infected, but as a responsibility toward the majority of the viewers. At some point one has to let idiots be idiots of course, rather than seeing their ignorance as a failure of communication from one's own part, but yeah, that would be my tentative approach for the channel we've been discussing, just make a poll, and take it from there, if nothing else then to satiate my own curiosity.

[Sumez]

Sorry, in what universe is the usage of savestates and slowdown not considered a form of cheating? Remind us who's inside a bubble again?

In a world where the usage of savestates and slowdown aren't being used to produce any sort of supposed demonstration of a feat.
I've used both savestates and slowdown in order to reverse engineer arcade games and analyze their inner workings. Is that cheating? I've used savestates in order to debug my own game projects developed for old platforms. Is that cheating? It's a pretty helpful tool for many purposes outside of cheating - including that of simply gathering footage of a video game, which is what is happening here.

Try to escape that silly "it's us vs. them" bubble, it's not serving any purpose. People are correct that Schlauchi's videos on YouTube aren't legit runs, but Schlauchi himself is also correct that it doesn't really matter, because people don't use his videos to see a demonstration of skilled play. And the exact same logic applies to every single other video on YouTube labeling itself as a "longplay".
I really don't care if you call it cheating or not, and trying to argue over it is a waste of time. But at least stop acting like it's some kind of massive problem.

Given that we, going forward as a community, have a demonstrable obligation, in view of the fact that our views are divergent from those of the mainstream, to express our opinions and adjust our discussions accordingly, without losing sight of the fringe nature of our views, I suggest the following:

We send requests for forgiveness to the team at Hardcore Gaming 101 - Kurt Kalata, Michael Plasket, and especially Nick Zverloff - for all the denigrating remarks we've made about their work. The mainstream cares nothing for our delicate and effeminate notions about genre knowledge or supposedly "accurate" information and representation. The same goes for all the authors we've slandered in the several topics dedicated to so-called embarrassing or ill-informed shmup reviews. Although many of you have suggested they do not understand the genre, they're writing for a broader audience who doesn't want to spend their hard-earned money on a 30 minute experience. The same goes for the YouTube popularizers you self-indulgently mock as 'sick grabbers.' Heavy Metal Jesus - whose influence is incomparable to yours - is waiting for your apology.

Truly, we must learn not to attack our betters. And we simply can't afford to lose sight of the fact that our community regularly expresses opinions that the mainstream gamer might find objectionable. Every oblivious utterance makes this community more unwelcome to the mainstream gamer and the real movers and shakers of this community.

Way to miss the entire point there
But at least your post was funny

[Rastan78]

One question about the whole longplay idea is why are they usually 1CC or no miss clears? If the goal is simply to show the game why not just credit feed? That's a more accurate depiction of the game itself to see a human playing it normally.

In terms of efficiency it's got to be easier and less time consuming to credit feed than play slo mo, record back the inp etc.

What's the motivation for making them tool assisted clears and how does that mesh with the original longplay demonstration concept?

[MJR]

One question about the whole longplay idea is why are they usually 1CC or no miss clears? If the goal is simply to show the game why not just credit feed? That's a more accurate depiction of the game itself to see a human playing it normally.

In terms of efficiency it's got to be easier and less time consuming to credit feed than play slo mo, record back the inp etc.

What's the motivation for making them tool assisted clears and how does that mesh with the original longplay demonstration concept?

Read the thread. This has already been discussed.

[neorichieb1971]

I don't consider shmup beaters human most of the time so I don't worry about cheating.

[XoPachi]

Try to escape that silly "it's us vs. them" bubble, it's not serving any purpose. People are correct that Schlauchi's videos on YouTube aren't legit runs, but Schlauchi himself is also correct that it doesn't really matter, because people don't use his videos to see a demonstration of skilled play. And the exact same logic applies to every single other video on YouTube labeling itself as a "longplay".
I really don't care if you call it cheating or not, and trying to argue over it is a waste of time. But at least stop acting like it's some kind of massive problem.

That's what I've been stuck on when reading this thread the last few days. I'm not understanding these grim conclusions. If some casual viewer watches a Battle Garegga video and gets a false perception of the game (they won't because they literally don't understand the game) so what? More likely, is if it appeals to them, they'll seek out the game because it looks cool. I highly doubt there's common enough cases of someone being bamboozled by something they couldn't even perceive when watching. I'd like to think the most casual of gamers understand they'll need to learn a game on their own and -any- video online is not a representation of how their learning experience will go.

Maybe it's not great content, fine. But there isn't any harm being done.

[Kino]

In a world where the usage of savestates and slowdown aren't being used to produce any sort of supposed demonstration of a feat.
I've used both savestates and slowdown in order to reverse engineer arcade games and analyze their inner workings.

In context, it was quite clear my quote was solely referring to demonstrations such as the videos Schlauchi has uploaded to his channel. Don't be deliberately obtuse.

People are correct that Schlauchi's videos on YouTube aren't legit runs, but Schlauchi himself is also correct that it doesn't really matter

That wasn't the argument he made. Or did you miss the parts when Schlauchi and Banjoted both ignored the fact that words have definitions, and tried convincing us that splicing together savestates & running games at 10% speed doesn't qualify as "cheating"?

For us Savestates and Slowdown are not technically cheats as they do not modify the game itself

If he was sticking to the argument of "yes it's cheating, i dont care lolololol", everybody here would've accepted it, myself included. Just show the slightest amount of intellectual honesty, that's all I ask for.

at least stop acting like it's some kind of massive problem.

No one is asking for Schlauchi to be drawn and quartered lmao. I'm perfectly satisfied with the disclaimer he added to his descriptions (only took him, what, 15 years? Better late than never, I suppose. )

What I'm seeing his detractors object to (and it's a sentiment I share) is that his following is massive, his low-effort videos get pushed to the top thanks to the omnipotent Youtube algorithm, he was dishonest about the methods used in the production of said videos until recently, and his content is useless for anything other than seeing what a game looks like in motion. On the contrary, I don't agree with him that he's "done more for the shmup community" than any of us just because he gets more eyeballs on his vids. If anything he does a disservice by misrepresenting the strengths of the genre & how shmups are supposed to be played. I pity the poor soul whose first introduction to the world of Cotton 2 was this. Where do I even begin?

[Some-Mist]

Try to escape that silly "it's us vs. them" bubble, it's not serving any purpose. People are correct that Schlauchi's videos on YouTube aren't legit runs, but Schlauchi himself is also correct that it doesn't really matter, because people don't use his videos to see a demonstration of skilled play. And the exact same logic applies to every single other video on YouTube labeling itself as a "longplay".
I really don't care if you call it cheating or not, and trying to argue over it is a waste of time. But at least stop acting like it's some kind of massive problem.

[Some-Mist]

I’d also like to see Schlauchi stick around since it’s such a small community, but after the way he’s been attacked I would understand not wanting to stick around personally

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

I'm seriously sick of this thread.

The only truth is that wol videos are misleading to anyone that decides to go shmupping. That's it. You can wax about it for 20 hours for all I care but that's all there is to it. It needs a better disclaimer. Case closed. Problem solved. Get the fuck out already.

I haven't read so much bullshit since the Perikles thread itself. What makes me particularly fed up with this is that reasonable posts have been made since the start so many times, but they're being ignored. This thread should've died thrice already.

I don't know what the shmup people did to you guys, and I hope it's clear who I'm addressing here, but as someone who's seen the worst of it, here's what I can tell you: Go read some books. I don't know which fucker/s got you so pissed and vengeful, but open your damn eyes - you're turning into the very assholes that you hate. Get some self-awareness.

I’d also like to see Schlauchi stick around since it’s such a small community, but after the way he’s been attacked I would understand not wanting to stick around personally

He's not coming back after this shitfest, I bet.

[DMC]

We can only learn from this 'til the time Shadowserg pops in.

[EmperorIng]

I’d also like to see Schlauchi stick around since it’s such a small community

No offense (really) to Schlauchi, but I am not so desperate for company! It'd be different if he (or them, whoever makes all the vids) just wanted to chill here and talk shmups but judging by some of these posts I do not think that was ever in the cards.

If you need some parasocial-izing with big names, you can always hang around MarkMsx or ShmupJunkie's channels and discord servers, ha.

I don't consider shmup beaters human most of the time

Whoa bro, maybe cool it with the anti-japanese racism?

[Some-Mist]

It’s not so much big names but rather being more embracing and sharing even if we play differently

I’m sure there’s good stories to hear

(But give me the bananamatic discord)

[Sumez]

We can only learn from this 'til the time Shadowserg pops in.

Shadowserg is a much more prevalent issue than Schauchi.
His videos actually present themselves as someone beating a challenge (boss fights), and there is nothing that would make anyone think they aren't demonstrations of skilled play until you start actually paying attention to the player. The videos even qualify themself as "no damage" alongside other similar game-specific modifiers which only make sense in the context of skill demonstrations.
First time I saw his videos I'd actually try to use the footage as a reference for boss strategies until I started realising that the player clearly had no idea what they were doing and often just relied on blind luck.

It's basically all the things people are acting like WoL is, and it most definitely is cheating. But at least we're aware of it, so once you know, you can stop worrying.

[Lemnear]

For us Savestates and Slowdown are not technically cheats as they do not modify the game itself

Unplanned slowdowns in the game ARE a form of cheating .
The game was created to go at a certain speed, altering this speed also undeniably alters the game, especially in difficulty.
SaveStates are also cheating, the developers created the game with specific stages and sessions, and fragmenting that session alters the game.

[MJR]

I have to admit that I don't mind if this thread goes on for another 20 pages. The insanity here makes for terribly entertaining reading

[BBH]

I'm sorry for the necro bump on this thread... nah, no I'm not. I came across this thread looking for a rundown of one of the cheaters mentioned in this thread, but instead mostly got a Schlauchi vs. The World argument.

Forget all that though. I noticed there was no mention of one person who got banned from another community, so let me tell the tale of a man named PAC.

............

This doesn't involve the shmups forum per se, but a website that's been on the internet since 1998 - the MAME Action Replay Page. Most people here have probably heard of it, it's a scoreboard for everything supported by MAME where you have to upload input files to back up your scores. I know some people don't like the site because autofire isn't allowed. But I've been somewhat active there since 1998, and I talk about it all the time on streams, as it serves as a good resource for finding viewable high scores on arcade games when YouTube doesn't come through.

The site's had its incidents of drama over the years, some users would come into question but often there was no way to prove they weren't on the level. I can think of one name (that I don't know if I should disclose) in which a user here was begging for any proof that they were cheating, but we couldn't prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. While the versions of MAME primarily used on the site (TGMAME, AlphaMAME, and then finally WolfMAME) did things like log recorded speed, and disable pausing and in-game save states, it's never been 100% at stopping dedicated cheaters. But we always hoped people wouldn't be petty enough to use outside means of cheats just for the sake of trying to gain glory.

So now for PAC. He was a player from Spain who'd been on the site since 2010, and had uploaded some great scores/replays here and there. Nothing too extraordinary, nothing to really make himself stand out as being one of the best players on the planet, but a great player. He did get a couple replays DQ'ed for autofire, which again I have to remind you is not allowed at MARP (I know anybody here reading this will think that's crazy), but he wasn't really a troublemaker. But then in 2015, he decided he wanted more... at any cost.

On September 15th, 2015, he uploaded a recording that was one of the craziest Golden Age game scores anyone had ever seen - 20 million points on Galaga, with only 3 lives used. This was mind-blowing! At the time, I think the record for 5 lives ("TG Tournament Settings") on Galaga was something like 4.5 million. And PAC just casually obliterated it by over four times that, with less lives used. He received many congratulations from forum members for his insane accomplishment. I did think it was a little bit crazy he just got this score out of nowhere without any buildup, but I didn't really think anything more of that. Maybe he really did have that dog in him.

He followed that up in October with a 2-loop clear of Salamander 2 (814,500) and a 2-loop clear of Bucky O'Hare (133,300), and a whopping 2,243,600 on Aliens (Japanese version) that must have been a world record? He also got a 1CC on Gunsmoke with 1.69 million - an important replay we'll come back to in just a second.

In November 2015, a tournament (T14) started on the MARP forum, a 10-game competition that PAC participated in. It was this touranment where people finally realized that something was up.

754,420 on New Rally-X (no replays had broken 250k at the time). 1,373,960 on Pengo (only one score had broken 300k in all the previous years of MARP). 700k on Gradius III (not world class but still impressive). 7.5 million on Twin Cobra.

An investigation started between editors on MARP and other users who noticed some weird things going on in his replays. His play on shmups like Gradius III and Twin Cobra did not show that he did not seem to know the games very well at all - who the heck is going to max out their speed on Gradius III? When I looked at his Gunsmoke replay, I immediately noticed something very bizarre - he was picking up all the skull icons as they appeared. Anybody who knows Gunsmoke knows to avoid those, because they take away one excess level of the three power-ups. He seemed willfully ignorant of this fact - or maybe he just wanted to show off? Still, these in itself weren't 100% conclusive proof - but eventually somebody noticed something very important.

As mentioned before, WolfMAME logs a player's recorded speed, to show if they're playing the game in slow-motion. If you're playing a game fairly, most of the time the displayed speed will be fluctuating between 99% and 100%. But something else was happening in PAC's replays - a lot of times whenever he stopped moving in a game, the speed would take a HUGE dip, often down to something like 30% or 40%. Now something like this might occasionally happen to a player if some other process in Windows decides to take over CPU resources for some reason, but it happened so frequently with PAC, and there was a clear pattern of it happening every time his character stopped moving. It was eventually determined (and PAC himself later confirmed it!) that he was using a virtual machine to make outside savestates during games.

A thread was posted stating that he was disqualified from the T14 tournament because of these findings. We had to be really careful in not disclosing the exact method he used so as to not give people ideas to do it themselves (although I'm posting about it now, so...)

PAC of course ended up denying it while most of the community cried for his head. Some folks in the Spanish community wanted to believe him and support him, including edusword (LOL). PAC fled from MARP, and made a thread on Twin Galaxies called "Please help MARP it is lying about me", that I now can't find because I don't know if the old threads got copied over to their new website. He tried drumming up sympathy for himself but eventually got laughed out when we explained the situation, and I think he was banned from Twin Galaxies as a result.

A month or so later he comes back and tries to upload new replays and act like nothing is wrong. Community members were confused and wondered why he wasn't banned. He responded to implications that his new replays were fraudulent by saying "Im a great player. If I made a cheat with any INP just invalidate it." and "When a INP is cheated just invalidate it , but you cant invalidate the right ones". Because of his unrepentant attitude, he was finally banned and all his scores were removed from the website. I think some of his Spanish friends were so angered by the treatment PAC got that they ended up leaving too, even though in the end we were right about PAC's cheating and he admitted as such. edusword at least listened to reason and believed us, which is kinda ironic now when you think about it... what if he ended up getting ideas from this...

Anyway, that's the tale of how the MARP community busted an arcade game cheater. Your reward for scrolling down this far, is a highlight of PAC's Gradius 3 replay. Please enjoy the funniest cube rush you will ever see, and feel free to play along at home and count all the speed dips on the recorded speed at the top-right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UmAVgH5duY

[BIL]

The sadness and regret of the Perikles fiasco, the ultra comfy mid-00s nostalgia of ScHlAuChi, and now a visit from LordBBH himself.

(I was gunning for your ACA Front Line 2 caravan score back at release, well played as always! I see even Clobter found the secret bonus input annoying, per his notes. I have been steeling myself for a return )