Cheating scandals in the shmup community?

[DietSoap]

To me, it just means they played through the game.

[BurlyHeart]

Most arcade games have infinite continues. - meaning when you die, you can keep playing. If you are not trying to give the illusion of good play, why go to all the hassle of using save states, slow-down etc to fake a 1CC?

I do not care either way fwiw. But it is disingenuous to pretend the channel is not trying to give the illusion of a skilled playthrough.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Not something i've seen on Wol, Serg or similar, but very often I do randomly find a longplay video that just continues with no hesitation. It's neat. The point is that this is something that people are doing already.

[Nahar]

Most arcade games have infinite continues. - meaning when you die, you can keep playing. If you are not trying to give the illusion of good play, why go to all the hassle of using save states, slow-down etc to fake a 1CC?

I do not care either way fwiw. But it is disingenuous to pretend the channel is not trying to give the illusion of a skilled playthrough.

Indeed. If the goal is just showing all the game or just all the stages to the ending, why cheat and hide the disclaimer in the end of a long description (when it is present at all)?

[ryu]

If you wanted to watch a game from start to finish, would you really want to watch the 'Continue?' loop every few seconds a few dozen to hundred times....?

I see no problem with using save states and other tools to create demo videos, honestly. It's not like they're claiming any records. A disclaimer at the start of the videos would be nice, I agree on that though. But personally I'm fine with a note in the description. I assume that everyone who cares about legitimacy is aware that anyone can upload cheated material on youtube and is naturally critical and cautious of channels they haven't verified.

[Andrey Aritonov]

In order to advance more fast, I think.
Coins are endless, but the next time.

[Sumez]

Honestly, that's the best (only decent) "suggestion" I've seen in this thread, to deal with the longplay criticism - including the game over/continue loop of arcade games that support this. I'd still expect them, however, to still use savestates (in lieu of skilled play) to avoid hundreds of tedious game overs through a session, but demonstrating the game over screen at least once actually makes sense given the purpose of a longplay.

@ScHlAuChi
Your definition of cheating is exclusive to you. In absolutely no universe would anyone else consider slowing the game down and save stating your way through it to be anything but cheating.

Schlauchi's runs are using cheats.
The thing is, however, and somehow this is causing a shitstorm of multiple pages of posts that really was never necessary in the first place - that it doesn't matter than he cheats.
These aren't entries on a leaderboard, and YouTube isn't a superplay archive. It's a dumping grounds for billions or pointless videos, some of which feature video games.

The only real issue I have with "world of longplays", or the various other channels producing similar content, is that I can't use them for reference in terms of how a game is played, or cool new boss strategies, etc.
For example I'm still getting the grips on many beat'em up basics, and like to reference videos of 1CC players to figure out how to handle various situations. If I were to use a "longplay" recording, this would teach me really bad habits, since a player using savestates can employ really poor strategy and still magically make it out alive. While the same is true for STGs, I think it's a lot more obvious when the player is doing dumb stuff, but I also realise that for a less experienced player it might be much less obvious.
However, the fact that the description says very clearly that savestates were used, means I know that I can't use the video for such a reference. But hell, having been accustomed to these kinds of videos all over YouTube for decades now, means that I won't assume that about any video that doesn't claim to be an actual 1CC recording or score attempt. Would other people be less likely to apply the same insight? Possibly. But if you're not even willing to actually search for a *guide*, it's really your own fault that what you end up with isn't a guide.

Here's the thing. The videos aren't pretending to be a documentation of a score, or a 1CC, or anything. They don't state anywhere that a game is being beaten, or cleared, or even completed, whatever those terms might mean to the individual. They are a showcase of the game, and often run through multiple modes, menus and other elements of a video game in the same video, which would make absolutely no sense to include in a skill demonstration.
Occasionally they make pretty poor showcase for sure (keep in mind the channel probably has as many point n click adventures as it has STGs, some genres are easier to demonstrate well than others), but I think there's a pretty big step from pointing out that video game related content on YouTube is of poor quality, to ragging on a dude for "cheating".

[Sumez]

It's obvious why worst of longplays won't educate his audience, he wants them to believe his low effort videos are real.

snip

If he wanted to be honest he's just put "tool assisted longplay" in the title of every video. He won't do it because he wants casual viewers to think what they are watching is real.

This

I simply refuse to believe you guys seriously believe that.
I know you're smarter than that.

If a game video mentions in the description that it was not played genuinely then shouldn't it be OK? At least I would think so.

There really is no satisfying these trolls.

It doesnt matter how much effort you put into educating your audience if the audience doesnt want to be educated.

Just responding here to tell you that I admire you patience in dealing with these people.
I'm not really a fan of World of Longplays, but I sincerely respect that you care enough to try informing people about your perspective.

[Sumez]

I immediately regret trying to engage in this dumb debate again

[Van_Artic]

The only real issue I have with "world of longplays", or the various other channels producing similar content, is that I can't use them for reference in terms of how a game is played, or cool new boss strategies, etc.

my issue is that they ALWAYS show up on top of searches (which is probably some form of algo manipulation)

either way, i've seen the term TAP (tool assisted playthrough/playaround) thrown out before, but it's more convenient for WoL to keep tucking the savestate comment in the video description, you know, the place nobody bothers to click

[iconoclast]

Schlauchi's runs are using cheats.
The thing is, however, and somehow this is causing a shitstorm of multiple pages of posts that really was never necessary in the first place - that it doesn't matter than he cheats.
These aren't entries on a leaderboard, and YouTube isn't a superplay archive. It's a dumping grounds for billions or pointless videos, some of which feature video games.

This is true, it doesn't matter if he or anyone else cheats. The "shitstorm" only started because he popped in to defend his videos against the people making fun of them for being cheated.

Everyone agrees that theyre cheated, so why is he so uppity? If you're not going to address the criticism, then just accept it and shut up. Oh wait, his way to address it is for the people making fun of him to play the game right and send him videos for his channel. Thankfully no one is stupid enough to do that.

[ScHlAuChi]

This is true, it doesn't matter if he or anyone else cheats. The "shitstorm" only started because he popped in to defend his videos against the people making fun of them for being cheated.

Oh right, how dare anyone defend themselves from bullies! You are supposed to stay silent and just let it happen!
Seriously, listen to yourself....

Everyone agrees that theyre cheated, so why is he so uppity? If you're not going to address the criticism, then just accept it and shut up. Oh wait, his way to address it is for the people making fun of him to play the game right and send him videos for his channel.

It is ironic that you call me uppity when you´re the one trying to force your views onto us.
We addressed the criticism several years ago as good as we could, and yet that still wasnt enough.
Instead of accepting that - you keep harassing us until we do exactly what you want.

Thankfully no one is stupid enough to do that.

Want to bet on that?

my issue is that they ALWAYS show up on top of searches (which is probably some form of algo manipulation)

The only reason why we always show up on top is because we were the first channel to do longplays. We started in June 2006, roughly one year after YT was started!
That you imply some sort of manipulation is laughable.

Either way, i've seen the term TAP (tool assisted playthrough/playaround) thrown out before, but it's more convenient for WoL to keep tucking the savestate comment in the video description, you know, the place nobody bothers to click.

TAP is a completely unknown unestablished term. We are not going to change "Longplay" to "TAP" just because you think its better for you.
You´re saying that no one looks at the description, but at the same time people will look up what "TAP" means? Right....

I simply refuse to believe you guys seriously believe that. I know you're smarter than that.

They dont want to be smart, they want to be offended, and nothing will stop them from being offended

Here's the thing. The videos aren't pretending to be a documentation of a score, or a 1CC, or anything. They don't state anywhere that a game is being beaten, or cleared, or even completed, whatever those terms might mean to the individual. They are a showcase of the game, and often run through multiple modes, menus and other elements of a video game in the same video, which would make absolutely no sense to include in a skill demonstration.

But that´s the thing, it does not matter what we are or arent pretending, it only matters how THEY interprete it. That is the only view that matters.

Occasionally they make pretty poor showcase for sure

I completely agree with that, there is a few videos that are poorly played - but we are a big community - random users can submit videos, and as long as we dont have a video for a game and the submitter adhered to our quality standards, we accept it. We usually assume that whoever played the video knows what they are doing, which isnt always the case.
Due to that, those poor videos do get replaced over time when we realize that they dont do the game justice.
Unfortunately the YT algorithm prefers the older videos, but one way we tried to fix that is by removing the number from the old video and give the new video the name of the old one.

(keep in mind the channel probably has as many point n click adventures as it has STGs, some genres are easier to demonstrate well than others), but I think there's a pretty big step from pointing out that video game related content on YouTube is of poor quality, to ragging on a dude for "cheating".

The number of shmups on our channel is probably less than 1%.

Just responding here to tell you that I admire you patience in dealing with these people.
I'm not really a fan of World of Longplays, but I sincerely respect that you care enough to try informing people about your perspective.

Thanks for your voice of reason - no one needs to be a fan of us - but I expect people to respect that our goals and viewpoints differ from theirs.
Bullying someone because they see things differently than you is just toxic behavior and a clear sign of intolerance!

I immediately regret trying to engage in this dumb debate again

Oh hey, we have something in common!

[third_strike]

More please!

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

snip

On stupidity on forums:

Spoiler

I'm going to be honest. I think that what we're seeing here is just people with too much time on their hands looking to make enemies and participate in drama for fun. This thread isn't even a good representation of the rest of the forums.

My advice is to call it a day and move on. There's plenty of actual fun to be had on sys11 outside of this particular, shitty thread.

On actually making a positive change on WoL:

Spoiler

TAP is a non-word and TAS is too unfitting. Ignore both and consider the more reasonable solutions from earlier:

• An intro bit for your videos that lasts like 2 seconds and simply says something informative. For example: "To showcase the game smoothly, save states and slowdown may be used".
OR
• A tag added at the end of video titles that just says (tool assisted).

Of the two, the former solves everything, doesn't impact online presence at all and makes videos unmistakable without doing any damage. The latter is cruder but still solves the problem (namely, people will realize why trying to do what players in the videos are doing doesn't work).

If you want to make a positive change, do one of these. Arguing with people here won't fix anything but it will just make both sides sour. Meanwhile, the above will actually be a good change and also shut up anyone who's opposing you.

On adding legitimate clears to WoL:

Spoiler

The proper way to handle it is to collab with shmuppers in an official capacity, just as you would with another youtuber. Even if WoL isn't a big name in the industry, the idea of asking for free content for your channel preemptively makes people refuse.

I'm aware that it's likely not happening because WoL simply has no interest in clear quality, nor is it a part of the actual shmup community, but this is the way to go about it, not what was done earlier.

Edit: On further posts by Banjoted and MJR:

Spoiler

I refuse to help keep this thread alive. Instead I will remark here in reply to these recent posts: For those saying that we're being unreasonable, I've read your posts, and I want you to consider how things would play out if this site was more populated. What you've written makes sense but only because we, as a collective, aren't big enough to be taken seriously. Sure, you can argue that bashing WoL is bad. I think that talking to WoL is fine and that we have some losers here overdoing it...but never was the goal stated by our respectable members something unreasonable, and now you say that we should all keep to ourselves because of, essentially, 'who'd ever listen to us to begin with?'. Clearly numbers dictate how correct a statement is...I spit at your argument.

[Eyvah_Ehyeh]

... well that's enough internet drama for the whole week. XD Now, only to not get sucked into any of the drama surrounding Trump's assassination attempt, where even labeling it as such is up for debate, and, yeah, Imma head out while I still can, and go play me some REDNEG ALLSTARS SWING-BY EDITION. Shmup of the year? Might be for me! Unless The Void Rains Upon Her Heart leaves it's 6 year old early access and actually gets released proper, that is.

[Andrey Aritonov]

He wrote: the people making fun of them for being cheated.
That is why

[MJR]

He wrote: the people making fun of them for being cheated.
That is why

Who wrote? Making fun? What and who are you referring to? If this was a joke post, what was the joke? The most confusing post of the year goes to this, now we only need to decide the prize.

[Andrey Aritonov]

Population does not know anything much

[MJR]

Population does not know anything much

I have seen some of these trolls popping up on youtube time to time. They write posts that are just vague enough to leave you confused if it's intentional if not. And when you confront them, they hide behind similar vagueness, as if leaving other people confused is some kind sign of "intellectual superiority".

Oh well, my bad for feeding the troll. We haven't had them here for some time.

[Andrey Aritonov]

But troll means King Frog Kong. For other reason...

[MJR]

And boom, the account goes deleted

[Sumez]

You were arguing with a bot

[DMC]

A poetic summary of the thread. ^^
Cheating threads always get the best out of us. Shmups vs Italy (Falsificare), Fair competitive practices and shoot em ups (STGT'12), The Problem of Perikles - all classics.

[MJR]

I'd say the thread spiraled into it's inevitable conclusion.

Bots are usually more articulate than average troll, though.

[banjoted]

Realize one thing - we and our viewers dont have a problem with those videos - YOU do!

I occasionally frequent this forum because I love shumps and I value a lot of the input from users here. But one of the things many folk are hugely guilty of is failing to understand that the views expressed here are beyond niche and are essentially completely unrelated to the normal user experience of video games, the internet and/or just the the general world at large. Which is absolutely fine as long as it's understood.

ScHlAuChi's here defending himself and his channel from assorted accusations of cheating and other foul play with hardly anyone grasping that the "cheating" described would not be perceived as such to virtually anyone outside of this obscure little bubble. Certainly none of the actions demanded of ScHlAuChi are for the benefit of his audience, so why should he give even the slightest shit?

Here´s an uncomfortable truth for you - I have done more for the shmup community than you ever did in your life!

Nothing that's been said by anyone here has come close to disproving this statement. It really rankles that a guy who has done and achieved actual real, tangible things should be attacked because he's done so in a way that displeases an audience he knows nothing of and owes nothing to. I've got zero skin in this game but it makes us look like a bunch of fecking idiots, chaps, and that's really frustrating.

[MJR]

Realize one thing - we and our viewers dont have a problem with those videos - YOU do!

I occasionally frequent this forum because I love shumps and I value a lot of the input from users here. But one of the things many folk are hugely guilty of is failing to understand that the views expressed here are beyond niche and are essentially completely unrelated to the normal user experience of video games, the internet and/or just the the general world at large. Which is absolutely fine as long as it's understood.

ScHlAuChi's here defending himself and his channel from assorted accusations of cheating and other foul play with hardly anyone grasping that the "cheating" described would not be perceived as such to virtually anyone outside of this obscure little bubble. Certainly none of the actions demanded of ScHlAuChi are for the benefit of his audience, so why should he give even the slightest shit?

Here´s an uncomfortable truth for you - I have done more for the shmup community than you ever did in your life!

Nothing that's been said by anyone here has come close to disproving this statement. It really rankles that a guy who has done and achieved actual real, tangible things should be attacked because he's done so in a way that displeases an audience he knows nothing of and owes nothing to. I've got zero skin in this game but it makes us look like a bunch of fecking idiots, chaps, and that's really frustrating.

Agree with this post, I do

[Lemnear]

I occasionally frequent this forum because I love shumps and I value a lot of the input from users here. But one of the things many folk are hugely guilty of is failing to understand that the views expressed here are beyond niche and are essentially completely unrelated to the normal user experience of video games, the internet and/or just the the general world at large. Which is absolutely fine as long as it's understood.

Agree with this post, I do

No wait, the people who write here (even the Pros) also play normal games, you can very well read their posts in the Other Gaming section.
And no, they don't live outside the world of "experiences for ordinary players", on the contrary, they have such a profound knowledge of the medium that sometimes it impresses me, and i've been playing video games since i was a baby...and yet the level of technical depth they rattle off here it's impressive, they should be reviewing video games, not today's journalists.
So think about how many things they played (and for how long) to arrive at certain details that an ordinary user wouldn't even perceive.
Just respect for them. I won't name names but we know who the pillars of this forum are.

[jehu]

Given that we, going forward as a community, have a demonstrable obligation, in view of the fact that our views are divergent from those of the mainstream, to express our opinions and adjust our discussions accordingly, without losing sight of the fringe nature of our views, I suggest the following:

We send requests for forgiveness to the team at Hardcore Gaming 101 - Kurt Kalata, Michael Plasket, and especially Nick Zverloff - for all the denigrating remarks we've made about their work. The mainstream cares nothing for our delicate and effeminate notions about genre knowledge or supposedly "accurate" information and representation. The same goes for all the authors we've slandered in the several topics dedicated to so-called embarrassing or ill-informed shmup reviews. Although many of you have suggested they do not understand the genre, they're writing for a broader audience who doesn't want to spend their hard-earned money on a 30 minute experience. The same goes for the YouTube popularizers you self-indulgently mock as 'sick grabbers.' Heavy Metal Jesus - whose influence is incomparable to yours - is waiting for your apology.

Truly, we must learn not to attack our betters. And we simply can't afford to lose sight of the fact that our community regularly expresses opinions that the mainstream gamer might find objectionable. Every oblivious utterance makes this community more unwelcome to the mainstream gamer and the real movers and shakers of this community.

[banjoted]

Agree with this post, I do

No wait, the people who write here (even the Pros) also play normal games, you can very well read their posts in the Other Gaming section.
And no, they don't live outside the world of "experiences for ordinary players", on the contrary, they have such a profound knowledge of the medium that sometimes it impresses me, and i've been playing video games since i was a baby...and yet the level of technical depth they rattle off here it's impressive, they should be reviewing video games, not today's journalists.
So think about how many things they played (and for how long) to arrive at certain details that an ordinary user wouldn't even perceive.
Just respect for them. I won't name names but we know who the pillars of this forum are.

Agree with this post, I do

No wait, the people who write here (even the Pros) also play normal games, you can very well read their posts in the Other Gaming section.
And no, they don't live outside the world of "experiences for ordinary players", on the contrary, they have such a profound knowledge of the medium that sometimes it impresses me, and i've been playing video games since i was a baby...and yet the level of technical depth they rattle off here it's impressive, they should be reviewing video games, not today's journalists.
So think about how many things they played (and for how long) to arrive at certain details that an ordinary user wouldn't even perceive.
Just respect for them. I won't name names but we know who the pillars of this forum are.

Oh my god people. That is not at all what I'm saying. Quite obviously so.

Of course we have an expertise here that's well beyond the norm. Indeed, I literally say that i frequent these boards because "I value a lot of the input from users here". In this very thread alone we've got PC Engine Fan X dropping actual gold - stuff like that is what's brilliant about us. Failing to grasp that this does not elevate our opinion beyond the mainstream lessers or perhaps those who dabble in shumps but 'don't really understand them' is far less brilliant.

[Lemnear]

No wait, the people who write here (even the Pros) also play normal games, you can very well read their posts in the Other Gaming section.
And no, they don't live outside the world of "experiences for ordinary players", on the contrary, they have such a profound knowledge of the medium that sometimes it impresses me, and i've been playing video games since i was a baby...and yet the level of technical depth they rattle off here it's impressive, they should be reviewing video games, not today's journalists.
So think about how many things they played (and for how long) to arrive at certain details that an ordinary user wouldn't even perceive.
Just respect for them. I won't name names but we know who the pillars of this forum are.

No wait, the people who write here (even the Pros) also play normal games, you can very well read their posts in the Other Gaming section.
And no, they don't live outside the world of "experiences for ordinary players", on the contrary, they have such a profound knowledge of the medium that sometimes it impresses me, and i've been playing video games since i was a baby...and yet the level of technical depth they rattle off here it's impressive, they should be reviewing video games, not today's journalists.
So think about how many things they played (and for how long) to arrive at certain details that an ordinary user wouldn't even perceive.
Just respect for them. I won't name names but we know who the pillars of this forum are.

Oh my god people. That is not at all what I'm saying. Quite obviously so.

Of course we have an expertise here that's well beyond the norm. Indeed, I literally say that i frequent these boards because "I value a lot of the input from users here". In this very thread alone we've got PC Engine Fan X dropping actual gold - stuff like that is what's brilliant about us. Failing to grasp that this does not elevate our opinion beyond the mainstream lessers or perhaps those who dabble in shumps but 'don't really understand them' is far less brilliant.

I'm not just talking about SHMUPS/S.T.G. but to the entire videogame medium and i have already expressed this fear several times.

The Japanese have made video games a cult.
Others have made video games empty entertainment...

This trend has already led to the death of some genera...which is not very different from the annihilation of terrestrial or marine biodiversity.
if people don't know that "there is something better", they will always remain playing in the mud, and the gold ends up buried under it and forgotten...deeper and deeper.
Every now and then some publishers remember that there are still some pearls of the past to be dusted off... but many others are still buried like fossils...then there are those who simply republish them carelessly and those who restore them properly.
A museum should be established, because after all this is "art" too.