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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:21 am 



Joined: 10 Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Hi, I haven't seen a AA-1A done. I've studied the BA-5 mods, and this one looks different. I'm used to seeing OSD go into the jungle, but I think the tap point here would be closed captioning. I don't care about that, would I even need to bother with a switch or muxing?


https://ibb.co/VN1tvCN


Last edited by Spud on Tue Apr 28, 2020 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:07 am 



Joined: 18 May 2017
Posts: 807
Spud wrote:
Hi, I haven't seen a AA-1A done. I've studied the BA-5 mods, and this one looks different. I'm used to seeing OSD go into the jungle, but I think the tap point here would be closed captioning. I don't care about that, would I even need to bother with a switch or muxing?


https://ibb.co/VN1tvCN


The only way to do it is to hijack the Close Captioning RGB because the OSD RGB is a digital input.

Can do a Closed Caption Mux if you want or likely you can remove the Close Captioning Chip/snip the lines. Would likely only put a switch for blanking.
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OSD/External RGB Mux Diagram
OSD/External RGB Mux Resistor Value Table 0.7Vp-p : 0.5Vp-p

"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2020 1:29 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2019
Posts: 9
I'm a little fuzzy on syncs. I'm using a Wii that I have softmodded, and I plan to shift it to pal and use a scart cable. If I get a CSync cable, I can put csync into the svideo pin?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:53 am 



Joined: 18 May 2017
Posts: 807
Spud wrote:
I'm a little fuzzy on syncs. I'm using a Wii that I have softmodded, and I plan to shift it to pal and use a scart cable. If I get a CSync cable, I can put csync into the svideo pin?


Most likely will work. It's normally a suck it and see approach. Results vary.
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MarkOZLAD
OSD/External RGB Mux Diagram
OSD/External RGB Mux Resistor Value Table 0.7Vp-p : 0.5Vp-p

"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:08 pm 



Joined: 30 Apr 2020
Posts: 1
Hi as a European reading all of these RGB mods, may I ask, why do you use a external switch? There is no need to.

The way our TVs work here is when you have an RGB enabled device the device sends the 3V blanking voltage through pin 16 on the SCART plug. There is also a signaling pin that makes the TV switch to AV on its own when you turn on the device but it's unnecessary you can just switch to AV (video in) on the remote.

So instead of supplying the 3V to the jungle IC from a voltage source in the TV with a manual switch why not just let the device switch it on for you like our TVs here? I think it makes a much nicer setup instead of having to reach for a switch.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 8:10 pm 



Joined: 02 May 2020
Posts: 4
Need some help figuring out if RGB is possible on this set. I picked up a Sharp 20A-M100 and the datasheets I can find are fuzzy at best. The TV is RF input only, so I was wondering if I could RGB it and add a composite for the syncing. All help is greatly appreciated.

Top side of board showing IC201 ( X1712CE ) and IC1001 ( X1709CE )

Image

IC201 ( X1712CE ) I see pins 19 and 20 going to OSD I/F, but that is only two pins. I also see 15, 16, 17, and 18 are the RGB going out to the tube, but that doesn't help me.

Image

IC1001 ( X1709CE )

Image


Last edited by lopazopy on Wed May 06, 2020 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 8:38 am 



Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 100
Location: Denmark
t0nito wrote:
Hi as a European reading all of these RGB mods, may I ask, why do you use a external switch? There is no need to.

The way our TVs work here is when you have an RGB enabled device the device sends the 3V blanking voltage through pin 16 on the SCART plug. There is also a signaling pin that makes the TV switch to AV on its own when you turn on the device but it's unnecessary you can just switch to AV (video in) on the remote.

So instead of supplying the 3V to the jungle IC from a voltage source in the TV with a manual switch why not just let the device switch it on for you like our TVs here? I think it makes a much nicer setup instead of having to reach for a switch.


RGB does not necessarily equal SCART. Many tend to use the easier to mount BNC, which thus requires a separate switch. Also, as I remember learned by superg during gscartsw development, many SCART plugs aren't necessarily wired for this, at least not when homemade. In Europe we more or less have zip of these "issues" which is also why I do use the blanking pin in my mods, but US *is* vastly different in this context.

EDIT: Some people also tend to not liking supplying the blanking voltage as they feel supplying this increases risk of damaging the supplying console. I however find this somewhat silly, as using a 1K+ resistor and a diode or smth on the blanking line will dramatically reduce risks here.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:03 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Hi, working on my 32XBR85. I have the service manual but can't find the data sheet for the IC301 cXA1477as. In the service manual it has a black box diagram of the IC301 and it actually has TWO sets of RGB inputs, which I'm not used to seeing. Pins 16-18 are labeled "LR,LG,LB" and are the closed caption input. They have .1uf caps in series. The OSD is pins 19-21, are labeled "DR,DG,DB" and have 220R in series. Can someone demistify what is the best course here? Is my guess that the D denotes digital correct and that the closed caption is the better course of action?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 4:27 pm 


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Posts: 1617
Spud wrote:
Hi, working on my 32XBR85. I have the service manual but can't find the data sheet for the IC301 cXA1477as. In the service manual it has a black box diagram of the IC301 and it actually has TWO sets of RGB inputs, which I'm not used to seeing. Pins 16-18 are labeled "LR,LG,LB" and are the closed caption input. They have .1uf caps in series. The OSD is pins 19-21, are labeled "DR,DG,DB" and have 220R in series. Can someone demistify what is the best course here? Is my guess that the D denotes digital correct and that the closed caption is the better course of action?

L could mean "linear" which would be good (analog)


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 5:17 pm 



Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 100
Location: Denmark
Spud wrote:
Hi, working on my 32XBR85. I have the service manual but can't find the data sheet for the IC301 cXA1477as. In the service manual it has a black box diagram of the IC301 and it actually has TWO sets of RGB inputs, which I'm not used to seeing. Pins 16-18 are labeled "LR,LG,LB" and are the closed caption input. They have .1uf caps in series. The OSD is pins 19-21, are labeled "DR,DG,DB" and have 220R in series. Can someone demistify what is the best course here? Is my guess that the D denotes digital correct and that the closed caption is the better course of action?


The cap in front gives away it is meant for an ac signal, so an "analog" signal, thus this would be where you wanna inject. I guess a mux is in order, if there's a CC circuit.
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:13 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Do I have to mux? I have no interest in the closed caption.

Here's the block diagram. Closed caption on the bottom. Any clues here? Is YS blanking?

https://ibb.co/F5zMXmk


Last edited by Spud on Sun May 03, 2020 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2020 11:47 pm 



Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 53
Syntax wrote:
Or you could try doing it properly and putting your RGB signal into pins 15 through 18.

God knows why you decided to do an OSD switch on a set that has external RGB inputs... Oh yeah that crappy first post...


So I have this same CXA1865S in my Sony KV-13m10 and it has RGB In lines on 16 17 and 18. Do I need to seperate these from the 3.4 that is referenced in the red box below? I have RGB going in with the normal 75 resistor + 1uf Capacitor and I get a very very faint image with no color or green/red color bars. I soldered to the bottom side of 16-18 so I am wondering if wha I highlighted in red is screwing me up.
https://i.imgur.com/gOU5321.png

Service Manual for reference: https://www.manualslib.com/download/948213/Sony-Trinitron-Kv-13m10.html
Should I just desolder 16-18 , leave them de-soldered and then come in from the top? It looks like those three are fully bridged on the board unless I am crazy


Picture:Image


Last edited by flynnsbit on Mon May 04, 2020 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 12:13 am 


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Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 1617
Spud wrote:
Do I have to mux? I have no interest in the closed caption.

Here's the block diagram. Closed caption on the bottom. Any clues here? Is YS blanking?

https://ibb.co/F5zMXmk

There may not even be a closed caption decoder circuit present. You don't have to mux in either case, just cut the existing inputs if there are any

Ys is your fast blanking you will want to use. (Ym is half tone blanking)


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 8:10 am 



Joined: 18 May 2017
Posts: 807
I've not seen such close up views of solder blobs before.
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OSD/External RGB Mux Diagram
OSD/External RGB Mux Resistor Value Table 0.7Vp-p : 0.5Vp-p

"Imagine toggle switch OSD modding a TV in 2019" - maxtherabbit


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 11:34 am 



Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 53
MarkOZLAD wrote:
I've not seen such close up views of solder blobs before.

Lol, I distracted you with my picture so much that I didn't get an answer. It's a realitively cheap digital microsope from Amazon that I use to check my work and so I can see what I am soldering.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 1:38 pm 



Joined: 10 Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Quote:
There may not even be a closed caption decoder circuit present. You don't have to mux in either case, just cut the existing inputs if there are any

Ys is your fast blanking you will want to use. (Ym is half tone blanking)


There IS a closed caption circuit, and it looks like it has 5.6k's in series. Soooo.... It seems like it would be fine to just follow your mux method, no?

The only quirk appears to be that the CC circuit doesn't send blanking. The YS comes from another line that is built up from inputs all over the place. There isn't a simple 3.9k in series. How do I deal with that?


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 3:16 pm 


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Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 1617
Spud wrote:
Quote:
There may not even be a closed caption decoder circuit present. You don't have to mux in either case, just cut the existing inputs if there are any

Ys is your fast blanking you will want to use. (Ym is half tone blanking)


There IS a closed caption circuit, and it looks like it has 5.6k's in series. Soooo.... It seems like it would be fine to just follow your mux method, no?

The only quirk appears to be that the CC circuit doesn't send blanking. The YS comes from another line that is built up from inputs all over the place. There isn't a simple 3.9k in series. How do I deal with that?

you can mux with the CC decoder if you like, but I thought you said you don't care about CC functionality?

as for Ys, you can probably just tie straight to the jungle pin with a diode in series and call it good


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2020 5:31 pm 



Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 2
Hi, I'm experienced with electronics, but this is my first RGB mod.

I've got a ILO Dtv-2784 27" tv, with a DS-1107a chassis. It uses a LA76327M-MPB-E jungle chip which I found next to no info, but I did find the service manual to the tv.

Block diagram looks like this.

Image


Now the RGB and BLK1 and BLK2 run to jumper wires on the board. so they are very easy to work with and isolate.

The BLK 1 and BLK 2 pins coming from the 7144a run thru a 100ohm resistor before getting to the jungle. Scope shows a max of 4.09v after the resistors to the jungle.

Red and Blue go thru 10ohm resistors after the jumpers, but green is a straight shot.

My questions are,

1. Since the scope reads 4v on a very small signal (Input selection screen) I'm assuming +5 to active blanking?

2. I've seen alot about muxing the osd signal, is there a easy to follow guide on this?

3. Since red and blue go thru 10ohm resistors, should I remove these and just jumper to make everything equal?



Thanks.
Later,
dabone


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:34 am 


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Joined: 14 Apr 2020
Posts: 3
Since the LA7674 has a pin that shares both blanking and blue, so any ideas how can I get the RGB mod to work on a crt that I have? Mine was a Konka K1398U, and it has that chip.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 2:04 pm 


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Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 1617
dabone wrote:
3. Since red and blue go thru 10ohm resistors, should I remove these and just jumper to make everything equal?
dabone

judging by the block diagram and low R values, it sure sounds like those RGB inputs on the jungle are digital, and thus unusable for a mod

you might just have to content yourself with YPbPr


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:32 pm 



Joined: 27 May 2018
Posts: 2
Quote:
judging by the block diagram and low R values, it sure sounds like those RGB inputs on the jungle are digital, and thus unusable for a mod

you might just have to content yourself with YPbPr



So my two choices are..

Something like a retrotink scart to component, or a replacement chassis. Both will cost me about the same after cabling adapters and the like.

This is going to be in a arcade cab, so the tv would be decased anyway and the tube mounted in a recycled 27" monitor frame.

How much worse is the quality of rgb to YPbPr vs a chassis swap? Or is this the wrong place for this kind of question.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:43 pm 


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Posts: 1617
dabone wrote:
How much worse is the quality of rgb to YPbPr vs a chassis swap? Or is this the wrong place for this kind of question.

it's not worse - YPbPr is capable of the exact same level of sharpness and color fidelity as RGB, in theory

in practice it comes down to your choice of transcoder and how good it is


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 2:13 am 



Joined: 06 Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Hey everyone! I’ve been reading this whole thread for weeks. It’s addicting. Haven’t come across anyone mentioning a JVC AV27D305 yet. Maybe for good reason as I can’t seem to find the usual RGB and blanking from micon to jungle in the manual. Would anyone care to take a look?

https://www.manualslib.com/download/162 ... eries.html


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 6:09 pm 



Joined: 11 Oct 2018
Posts: 13
Hello fellow Shmupers! Greetings from Argentina

I got my hands on two old family TVs (Sony Trinitrons) to mod.

First one.. Sony KV 21 XTR3. Its NO GOOD for RGB mod. Failed miserably with it, as it has a CXA1871S jungle chip that only accepts DIGITAL RGB.
I managed to get a nice picture from an AMIGA 500 using the DIGITAL outputs at the video connector. But as I only connected DR, DG and DB it could only show 8 colors. I guess if i could feed DI (Digital Intensity) into the jungle chip it could show the 16 colors palette.. But that was not the idea.
I can confirm that this jungle (Sony CXA 1871S) wont accept ANALOG RGB, as i got no picture (only a veeery dim image) when feed the analog lines. I believe that this was also confirmed in this thread before.

Next step for this TV is adding S-Video (its only Composite), but thats OFFTOPIC for this thread.

I leave datasheets and diagrams for future reference of this model

http://www.mediafire.com/file/k6kypvm6vpc3cei/Sony_CXA1871S.pdf/file

http://www.mediafire.com/file/41qcptvzv6ediof/Sony_KV-21XTR3_Diagrams.pdf/file



The other TV is a Sony KV21FE12A (BA5 chassis) which will be giving the MUXing treatment. I´ll report back when succesfull. Progress and diagrams will be posted in the other thread.(MarkOZLAD's one)

best regards!


Last edited by Gonzalo on Fri May 08, 2020 1:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 11:38 pm 



Joined: 02 May 2020
Posts: 4
lopazopy wrote:
Need some help figuring out if RGB is possible on this set. I picked up a Sharp 20A-M100 and the datasheets I can find are fuzzy at best. The TV is RF input only, so I was wondering if I could RGB it and add a composite for the syncing. All help is greatly appreciated.

Top side of board showing IC201 ( X1712CE ) and IC1001 ( X1709CE )

IC201 ( X1712CE ) I see pins 19 and 20 going to OSD I/F, but that is only two pins. I also see 15, 16, 17, and 18 are the RGB going out to the tube, but that doesn't help me.


IC1001 ( X1709CE )



It took a couple of days for my first post to be approved above. Weird that when it does get approved, it goes in the original spot and may get missed. In the mean time, I've done some more digging and came across a chip equivalent that has better data sheets. The NTE7010 shows an OSD input for the R and the G, but no B. It has a FBP input, which I've figured is the Fast Blanking Pin, but I don't think it shares this input with the B.

Can the OSD only have Red and Green?

https://weisd.com/uploads/product/sheet_pdf/23590/NTE7010.pdf

Image


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:15 am 



Joined: 08 May 2018
Posts: 100
Location: Denmark
lopazopy wrote:
Image

Looking at the datasheet, I am quite sure that is digital OSD and only red and green...
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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 11:24 am 



Joined: 07 May 2020
Posts: 3
Damn, this is a very cool topic !!


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 3:58 am 



Joined: 02 May 2020
Posts: 4
skum wrote:
Looking at the datasheet, I am quite sure that is digital OSD and only red and green...


Thanks for looking! Time to button it back up and pass it on. The search continues...


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2020 6:06 pm 



Joined: 12 Apr 2020
Posts: 53
flynnsbit wrote:
Syntax wrote:
Or you could try doing it properly and putting your RGB signal into pins 15 through 18.

God knows why you decided to do an OSD switch on a set that has external RGB inputs... Oh yeah that crappy first post...


So I have this same CXA1865S in my Sony KV-13m10 and it has RGB In lines on 16 17 and 18. Do I need to seperate these from the 3.4 that is referenced in the red box below? I have RGB going in with the normal 75 resistor + 1uf Capacitor and I get a very very faint image with no color or green/red color bars. I soldered to the bottom side of 16-18 so I am wondering if wha I highlighted in red is screwing me up.
https://i.imgur.com/gOU5321.png

Service Manual for reference: https://www.manualslib.com/download/948213/Sony-Trinitron-Kv-13m10.html
Should I just desolder 16-18 , leave them de-soldered and then come in from the top? It looks like those three are fully bridged on the board unless I am crazy


Well I pulled pins 16-18 out of circuit and soldered on RGB. I didn't end up using the blanking pin on 15 as I got a signal without it. Picture syncs but is black and white and maybe inverted? If I ground it, I get weird red/green bars on the screen. 2 questions:

1. Did I do this right with the caps and the resistors to ground?
Image
Image

2. Here are shots of the screen. Any ideas on the weird image with no color?
Image
Image

I think I am going to go back to trying to mux into the OSD if no one has any ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: TV RGB mod thread
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2020 4:48 am 



Joined: 09 May 2020
Posts: 4
I've been pointed this way by some folks who were unsuccessful in trying to help me RGB mod my monitor. Thanks in advance for the help! I'm currently trying to convert an old "prosumer" monitor for arcade use. It's the Proton 602M, and in its day it was a very high-end monitor. I got this one from the original owner, who barely used it since the 1980s, and the tube and chassis are still in absolutely fantastic shape for their age. It apparently has been serviced for a recap at least once in its life, so it was very well cared for. This monitor also had a special power supply with drive and deflection circuits built separated from eachother, with a crazy-weirdo split flyback like nothing I've seen before. As you can see, the convergence and geometry are still pristine. Hence, why I'd love to build it into an arcade machine.

Note that this monitor has no OSD, no closed captioning, no PIP, nothing of that sort. Originally it came with composite input and TTL RGB input, and that's it. Much of the onboard logic is done with discrete transistors, but there are a handful of ICs whose datasheets I cannot seem to find because of age.

(the image below was generated with composite input)
Image

Unfortunately I'm having issues with modding it for RGB, and I'm hoping some folks here could help or at least point me in the right direction. When I have my signals hooked up, it looks like this:

Image

Right now I have a Neo Geo MV1C mobo hooked up to it, and the RGB signals are attenuated with 240 ohm resistors, and the sync is attenuated with a 1k resistor. I am currently inputting sync through the composite input jack, and RGB are connected to some convenient test points labeled TP-54R, G, and B. You can see them on these circuit diagrams.

Annotated Circuit Diagram.Red and Green highlights indicate RGB input test points, yellow indicates various sync injection points I tried. Note that only sync injection point 1, the composite input, had any effect at all. All other injection points seemed to produce no image at all.

Block Diagram

More circuit diagrams for daughter boards

Additional Photos: https://photos.app.goo.gl/cF9RUwfsmknwD5LK9


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