Shmup Ticker: What are you playing RIGHT NOW?

[Shepardus]

Just because the game requires a bit of memorization doesn't mean it's unfair (and it's not that much memorization anyway)

It's interesting to note that Toaplan intentionally went for memorization-focused gameplay in Hishouzame so players could improve over time by learning the tricks rather than having to rely on good reflexes and hand-eye coordination:

Q. Why did you make the small boats so treacherous? (laughs)

A. We didn’t want to make a game that players needed really good reflexes or hand eye coordination to clear. We wanted it to be cleared by the tricks and knowledge the player had accumulated through playing. The word “memorizer” didn’t exist then, but that’s the kind of game we were trying to develop. So the small boats are just one part of that overall goal.

They also talked about the slow ship speed (in Tiger Heli, but I think it also applies to Hishouzame):

Q. Please tell us the history and reasons behind the decision to make the ship speed so slow.

A. There’s a definite connection between high speed and that feeling of exhiliration, but if we made the ship faster, we’d have to make the bullets faster in order to keep the difficulty balanced, and we wanted to avoid doing that. We wanted beginners to be able to see the bullets clearly, so making the bullet speed slower was important. Another reason was that increasing the ship speed allows the player more freedom of movement, but that would mean that the make the routes the player could plan through each stage would become much more sloppy, and less strategic.

Regarding Hishouzame, I never had much problem with the enemies coming from behind since I usually hang a little higher up on the screen to help deal with the projectile limit. Lack of powerups when recovering is also fine to me since the stages are pretty doable even at minimum power. My biggest gripe with the game is the enemy wobble that causes enemies to partially scroll with your horizontal movement, which is really annoying with the slow movement speed.

[Sumez]

Never read that interview before - I think it's pretty interesting that they were actually going intentionally for memorization gameplay. It makes sense though - I always felt that's why R-Type was such a succesful game. By making a difficult game that you will always get further in through experience rather than sheer skill, people will be much more likely to return to the game and pop in more coins.

I don't feel like a lot of Toaplan shooters relied that much on memorization though. While I don't think it's as bad in Flying Shark as it's being made out to be either, most of them don't have enemies popping out from behind in situations where you're likely to be in a bad position. Those planes are exceptionally awful, but when you've seen them once they probably won't kill you again.

[wizkid]

The hitbox and speed are just fine considering the type of game it is, you can pretty much dodge everything just holding left or right. Oh and you don't really have to worry about using bombs, remember every stage you are restocked with 3 bombs (even if you have more than that). Just because the game requires a bit of memorization doesn't mean it's unfair (and it's not that much memorization anyway)

i couldn't ask for it to be more fair considering it's 1987, yet it's still more memory heavy than a modern game like wolflame, which is why i mentioned it in the first place.
Honestly you guys are acting as if I called this or any other memory game bad, by modern danmaku standarts wolflame is dad memoshit, so we are in the same boat

[Shepardus]

Never read that interview before - I think it's pretty interesting that they were actually going intentionally for memorization gameplay. It makes sense though - I always felt that's why R-Type was such a succesful game. By making a difficult game that you will always get further in through experience rather than sheer skill, people will be much more likely to return to the game and pop in more coins.

I don't feel like a lot of Toaplan shooters relied that much on memorization though. While I don't think it's as bad in Flying Shark as it's being made out to be either, most of them don't have enemies popping out from behind in situations where you're likely to be in a bad position. Those planes are exceptionally awful, but when you've seen them once they probably won't kill you again.

From the same interview collection:

For Tiger Heli, we were aiming for a game where the stressful sections and the fun, exhilirating sections would be clearly delineated. We wanted a game that would make you want to play it again after you died, and make you think you could get just a little further. It turns out the replay rate on Tiger Heli was very high, so I think we succeeded in that goal.

I think memorization-based challenges are one way to approach this "just one more time, I'm sure I can do better now" feeling, giving the player a clear path forward for their next credit or at least something to try. For this to work, though, it has to be clear to the player what they did wrong and where they can go from there. Otherwise you get something like a Psikyo game where you try a thousand random things until you find a safespot or a certain tapping rhythm that gets you through the attack. A lone enemy coming from behind achieves this, albeit in a somewhat cheap and not particularly inspired way.

I also don't find Flying Shark to be particularly reliant on memorization, but perhaps it was compared to other games at the time?

[Vludi]

How's getting killed by a massive plane that comes from behind in the water level fair? How is having no power up items whatsoever to help you recover fair? I just played Hishou Zame and Raiden, and the latter is far more fair. Just becouse a game is easy once you memorise all the bullshit, doesn't mean it's fair.

And who forces you to stay at the bottom of the screen all the time? and come on it's a 15 min game with 3 or 4 zones where enemies come from behind, you can learn those in a few credits. If your definition of fairness is being an expert in the game just improvising/playing blind in your first credit maybe shmups aren't for you.

Honestly you guys are acting as if I called this or any other memory game bad, by modern danmaku standarts wolflame is dad memoshit, so we are in the same boat

Danmakus are just as memory heavy as old games, maybe some of them allow you to get a basic clear a bit easier than old games by spamming bombs and playing on reaction, but you will not get anywhere in loop 2/ultra/etc or scoring by improvising alone, memorization is key to any shmup.

[wizkid]

And who forces you to stay at the bottom of the screen all the time?

the situation, i was busy shooting boats in front of me and i was expecting some enemies from lower sides of the screen like in earlier levels, not a big plane from behind.

and come on it's a 15 min game with 3 or 4 zones where enemies come from behind, you can learn those in a few credits

like i said before easy doesn't equal fair, not for me.

and come on

i alread said that it's normal for a 1987 game, i'm not complaining, but strictly speaking it's not fair, just like floor dissapearing under you in some masochistic smb romhack is not what even people who enjoy this kind of thing would call fair, so i don't really understand why you insist on it being fair.

If your definition of fairness is being a expert in the game just improvising/playing blind in your first credit

my definition of fairness is no sudden planes raming you from behind in a checkpoint game where you respawn with a peashooter.

maybe some of them allow you to get a basic clear a bit easier than old games by spamming bombs and playing on reaction

most of them let you get basic 1-all, not some, you need memory only in late levels.

memorization is key to any shmup.

it will always be a key for a high level play, i'm not arguing with that.

[Vludi]

It took me more memorization and time to 1-All some danmakus than Flying shark, Flying shark only requires a general idea + bombing the busy parts and that's it, the checkpoints aren't even that bad plus you get a lot of lives.

[crazyrexz]

currently playing gokujo parodius in snes, with option revival on, still enjoying blowing weird stuff

[maximo310]

A Flying Shark 1-ALL is not difficult at all. In fact, I'd say its the easiest Toaplan game to 1-ALL from what I've played ( besides a Batsugun Special 1-ALL).
Not much memo, plentiful bomb stock, 15 min loop ( with only 4 stages for successive loops), recoverable checkpoints that aren't too bad, and constant extends.

It is more fair compared to Raiden I, where the last couple of stages can easily snowball into a game over if you don't plan your routes accordingly.

You can do etttttttt!

[Shepardus]

Out Zone 1-ALL is easier but yeah, Flying Shark is one of Toaplan's easier games. Not that I've 1-ALL'd it myself... (when I tried I got fed up with the enemy wobble that I mentioned before and the relatively slow player shots/low projectile limit).

Also, people's definitions of fairness vary greatly.

[wizkid]

You can do etttttttt!

i wasn't even playing ettttttttt!
but now i do.

[seraph]

Flying Shark is perfectly fair. Especially non-Japanese versions because those versions have lower difficulty and more lives. You might need to drop a few bombs to get that first power up after dying, but after that you are pretty much good to go as long as you pay attention. There is no shortage of spare lives, either. Keep trying, that's what arcade games are about.

[wizkid]

thanks for support and advice, but i don't really struggle that much with this game, not yet at least. i hate to be that guy who whines about unfair arcade games, as we all have our own definitons about what is fair and not. just brought it up in a conversation about a different shmup and it all snowballed from there, and now people think this game is too hard for me or something, which hurts my ego to be honest, so i started playing it and i will beat it no matter what.

[wgogh]

plot twist

[Kollision]

i started playing it and i will beat it no matter what.

that's the spirit, pure and simple

[Square_Air]

so i started playing it and i will beat it no matter what.

Keep up this attitude and I guarantee you'll find success.

[seraph]

We did it, guys. :)

[Jonst]

Giving raiden 3 a serious crack. I'm liking it but goddamn it feels sluggish.

[wizkid]

Practicing second loop in flying shark, even though i haven't cleared first yet. Do you think it's a good game for a beginner to go full shmup on?

[Vludi]

Practicing second loop in flying shark, even though i haven't cleared first yet. Do you think it's a good game for a beginner to go full shmup on?

You mean multilooping? if you enjoy it then go for it, the second loop isn't much harder than the first one, the game reaches max rank around loop 4 or so.

[wizkid]

Yes, multilooping. I just feel like beating only first loop in such a short and fairly easy game won't be satisfying, so i'd like to do second too, maybe more. Even if i won't, at least my score will be higher and that's always nice.

[Mantrox]

Still playing Garegga's Arrange on PS4.
I need to study the MARK2 bosses a bit. I am dumping a lot of resources on them.

[mirkvid]

I finally set up a dedicated vert cab, so I'm revisiting some games that have been in storage for a while; Batrider and Mushihimesama. I also picked up a MERCS board recently, should be a fun 1cc if I can find the time.

[Squire Grooktook]

Playing a tiny bit of Caladrius Blaze here and there on break.

I would call the patterns and stage design only "solid" (outside the truly excellent finalie, and a few neat late game gimmick attacks), but mechanically this has to be one of my favorite new(ish) shmups in years. Each character in the game has a diverse roster of unique weapons encourage you to exercise finesse and variety in your shooting and intuitively rewards your score for doing exactly that. Really makes you master your characters gimmicks and puts an emphasis on shooting that you don't see a ton these days. Love it.

[Sumez]

I've considered picking up Caladrius on multiple occasions, but every time I'm reminded about the shooting clothes off girls gimmick, I'm immediately shunned away. I don't think I could ever support something that patheticically immature, even if the game is otherwise good >_>

[Squire Grooktook]

To be fair you can shoot the dudes clothes too. If you think of it that way, it's actually pretty progressive!

[NeoStrayCat]

Well, while I too also take a liking to Caladrius (Blaze), the risk and reward of having to use the E. Shots to raise your score is very intuitive, though yeah, the standard shot button barely gets any use, unless you have no other choice if your E. gauges are depleted or have your multiplier maxed out, lol.

Also Sumez, if it bothers you so, you can turn off the Shame Breaks in the game options, lol.

[Squire Grooktook]

though yeah, the standard shot button barely gets any use,

Normally this would bother me a lot, but the fact that it automatically fires on at least one of your E-Shots really nicely works around that issue for me. It forces you to still make use of your main shot, but cleverly and with a lot of finesse in order to keep building that multiplier.

[Marc]

Thunder cross. Remembered that it's stage 5 that used to hack me off in the arcade as a kid. Great game,quite forgiving for a Konami shooter up until there.

[BurlyHeart]

Started playing R-Type I (in Dimensions ps3) for the first time last night. It's much more methodical than I imagined, with very short stages, but still fun. Great art, and I like the sound effects but the title screen music is painful.

Made it to the stage 3 boss and looking forward to progressing.