"Euroshmups" overly logical?

[Pixel_Outlaw]

I've been thinking for a bit on the things that lead to a "Euroshmup" (pardon that name if it offends you and doesn't apply to your European shmup that plays like a traditional Japanese shmup).

I guess various aspects of them seem to stem from taking a shmup as a 2D simulation of a sci-fi concept.

They are VERY logical. For example
Healthbars: Why should a big ship suddenly explode from a few shots in the body?
Look at the planes that survive wars. Often they are riddled with holes, the lifebar is an extension of a damage meter.
Bullet Patterns: Why would an enemy shoot in any direction other than forward. Bullets are expensive!
Resource Management Bullets are expensive and nobody fires a weapon endlessly! Include an in game store and limit weapon usage.
Enemy Patterns: Why would enemies spend time flying up and down and curving backwards?
Ship Physics I think this goes back to treating the game as a simulation. Things are floaty in space, the player's comfort comes second to the simulation. Things don't teleport from position to position, they float following the laws of physics in space.
Super High HP Enemies Your ship shouldn't explode in 1 shot so enemies are "built" tough too. Bosses annoyingly so.

But there are some illogical things too
SLOW PLAYER BULLETS I just can't figure this out. It gets really bad when you are firing at a 45 degree angle while you move along an axis.

So do you think the "Euroshmup" is a result of treating a shmups more as a simulation?
Why didn't the Japanese do it too?
Is there some cultural aspect that caused the divergence?
Do shmups made in the US have any particular trends? (I'm not sure on this I don't know any offhand)

Did the shmup simply evolve differently on personal computers due to lack of Japanese shmup exposure?
Just some thoughts please share your knowledge/opinions.

[trap15]

The europeans don't know what makes a game fun, so they default to simulations. Japanese understand that simulations aren't always fun or ideal, so they make what's fun instead.

[BulletMagnet]

So do you think the "Euroshmup" is a result of treating a shmups more as a simulation?

Off the cuff this seems to make at least some level of sense; the earliest video games, Spacewar included, started as science experiments before the idea came about to commercialize them. I'd also be tempted to partially attribute this to the popular sci-fi trends of the time; note how many old Atari shooters used ship sprites obviously intended to mimic the Enterprise from Star Trek, whose appeal lies more in semi-believable technobabble than explosion-heavy action.

Why didn't the Japanese do it too?
Is there some cultural aspect that caused the divergence?

At least according to Wikipedia the guy behind Space Invaders was more inspired by Breakout than other existing shooters because he wanted to focus on the sense of achievement found in destroying stuff and clearing levels, as opposed to "simulating" anything; I don't know enough about Japanese culture to say if there's anything bigger behind that, but considering how much success the thing found worldwide I'd guess it was the simpler and more universal notion that "realistic" does not necessarily equal "fun", and that selectively ignoring aspects of the former can often serve the interests of the latter (especially taking into account the technical limitations of the time). Not sure why the West tended to more stubbornly cling to its "established" angle for so many years afterwards, but enough "Euroshmups" found success (and occasionally even remain recalled fondly today) that there must've still been some measure of consumer appetite for them.

Mind you, I'm just typing off the cuff here, someone more "classically" versed in these matters would be better-qualified than I to go much deeper than this.

[Xyga]

Is there some cultural aspect that caused the divergence?

IMHO I think it's just that eurodevs were people who knew mostly only (western) computers of the time and therefore learned from what they've played there.

Also most kids I knew who had computers didn't own consoles nor were the type to go to the arcades (well you get it: nerds :p)
By 90~91 in my country already massively sold to Mario/Zelda/Sonic and early anime pantsu, the 16bit console gen almost completely erased the Amiga and ST's presence from the market and media/press.

Anyway those were two different worlds not speaking to each other really.
So how could the computer 'side' have learned from 'foreign' games if they didn't play them ?
I know ports of JP games were a thing but those were definitely not the most popular games on these platforms, at least not from what I've seen myself every time I had the opportunity. Maybe those ports came too late while the computer-only crowd was already used to favoured western games...

[WelshMegalodon]

Why didn't the Japanese do it too?
Is there some cultural aspect that caused the divergence?

Remember that time when JoshF compared Gunstar Heroes to a euroshmup?
I believe I've seen the Darius and Gradius games likened to euroshmups as well (unfairly, I might add).
And what is Side Arms* if not a euroshmup from Capcom?
There are also Japanese shooters with health bars, like Silpheed, or with inertia, like Exerion.

Serious answer: even if there is "some cultural aspect", I'm reluctant to point to the pursuit of realism as the cause, considering titles like Artdink's A-Train series or Taito's Densha de Go! games. While it's definitely a tempting accusation to make, it also reeks of nostalgiafag "modern gaming trends" bashing.

Do shmups made in the US have any particular trends? (I'm not sure on this I don't know any offhand)

The deeper I dig into gaming history, the more inclined I become to deem American and European developers incapable of understanding arcade-style design... but that's clearly an overly broad generalization to make, and no less dangerous than the realism case mentioned above. A more likely case is that euroshmups play terribly because they were made by incompetent developers that didn't know what they were doing.

Euroshmups seem to me kind of like they are designed by children. I know that when I was 10 I would not have been really interested in precisely-tuned gameplay, on account of my non-existant skills. If a game had awesome graphics and music on the otherhand, a cool intro, perhaps some other story-related game interruptions, what more could I want? I would play that crap all day, looking forward with excitement at possibly being able to buy the really expensive cool weapons for my ship.

Did the shmup simply evolve differently on personal computers due to lack of Japanese shmup exposure?

That explanation can be safely dismissed. It's a known fact that such classics as R-Type, Salamander, and 1943 were ported to just about every popular 8-bit microcomputer out there. Most of them didn't turn out very well, but they're there. See the trainwreck for yourself.

IMHO I think it's just that eurodevs were people who knew mostly only (western) computers of the time and therefore learned from what they've played there.

Also most kids I knew who had computers didn't own consoles nor were the type to go to the arcades (well you get it: nerds :p)
By 90~91 in my country already massively sold to Mario/Zelda/Sonic and early anime pantsu, the 16bit console gen almost completely erased the Amiga and ST's presence from the market and media/press.

Anyway those were two different worlds not speaking to each other really.
So how could the computer 'side' have learned from 'foreign' games if they didn't play them ?
I know ports of JP games were a thing but those were definitely not the most popular games on these platforms, at least not from what I've seen myself every time I had the opportunity. Maybe those ports came too late while the computer-only crowd was already used to favoured western games...

Shitty confirmation bias time!

Ever notice how "JPRGs" are all** dumbed-down cutscene-fests that don't come anywhere close to games like Amberstar or Daggerfall? Or how most console ports of "computer game" genres like adventure and strategy games tend to suck? Console gamers bought these half-assed ports and enjoyed them since it was all that was available for their platform of choice. What we are seeing with games like Tyrian is the same situation, but from a PC gamer's point of view. How in a world full of real-time dungeon crawlers and point-and-click garbage*** is little Billy supposed to get his fightans fix without Street Fighter II for the Atari ST?

Xyga's theory is convincing, and probably true to an extent, but one also ought to consider things like the breadth of the Amiga demoscene.

*

Spoiler

Would you believe I actually like Side Arms?

**

Spoiler

http://www.romhacking.net/translations/2585/

***

Spoiler

Yes, I am aware that these two genres belonged to different eras.

EDIT: Reworded the last sentence to something less dismissive.

[Xyga]

Well one crucial aspect of my point is money, if you wanted to know both worlds you needed more than just one machine at home, and that definitely wasn't common at the time.
Depended greatly on what the parents were inclined to pay for.

[Shepardus]

Different environments (arcades vs. home computers and their respective developer cultures, maybe other influential sci-fi media popular in their areas) gave rise to different ideas about what's fun and what isn't, I assume. Even with both styles readily available nowadays there are still some people who prefer euroshmups or shmups with "euro" tendencies. They aren't necessarily wrong, either, they're just looking for something different from what Japanese shmups offer.

[ZacharyB]

That's a good point, Shepardus. After all, the whole point of the commercial arcade game was to quickly get the players engaged, then boot them off of the machine for the next credit before they took too long. Simulation play might just be too slow? Actually, I remember a few simulation-like arcade games... always more expensive than the normal arcade-style games. Things like the early Namco 3D. (Although, being the early 3D, I think they were pushing the exploration aspect of it a bit more, since 3D graphics were still impressive and new.)

[Xyga]

It's not 'arcades vs computers', it's 'arcades and consoles vs computers', and so basically jp vs euro.
Console shmups despite working with the same structure-flow and gameplay as the arcades, were not designed with customer rotation/quarter-munching in mind but as die and retry until clearing/difficulties/scoring.
I mean in the arcades it's often the difficulty that was made to kick players out, not the japanese-school gameplay design by itself.

[PowerofElsydeon]

The europeans don't know what makes a game fun, so they default to simulations. Japanese understand that simulations aren't always fun or ideal, so they make what's fun instead.

Free spech is really cool but be quiet cause that's so stupid
Wipeout; Burnout; Resogun; Bionic Commando Rearmed and the Pinball Fx universe were made by Europeans
There's a thon of indie european game makers developing rad arcade games
While Konami was transformed into nothing but a pile of barely fun mobile phone gaymes
I guess that's the modern Jap game developer stereotype
Sega ,Konami ,Taito ,Capcom and Namco kind of suck ass now
Of course there's the upcoming Daytona Usa 3 and Time Crisis V wich I wish I even had chance to even try
But that's nothing compared to searching for indie games on steam wich are many if not most were made by westerners
So I wish Konami was still doing well but no
I've lost all faith
So European and American Indie devolpers are the present and future
So that's it don't insult European game developers cause like that 'cause it doesn't make any sense

[Sumez]

I'm pretty sure that comment was directed at the past though, and NOT the present nor the future. :3

Obviously it's not a catch-all statement either, but as a broad generalization there's a lot of truth to it.

[Kraq]

This is Shmups Chat, not Off Topic. Trap15 made his post before people started mentioning other genres.

You make good arguments, but none of the games you mentioned are shmups.

[Shepardus]

Resogun's a shmup at least. Pretty recent game compared to most of what people are talking about here, though.

[Firehawke]

To be fair, Resogun is a modernized Defender in the same way Super Stardust was a modernized Asteroids. That leads us to Defender, which is one of the rare cases where simulation met arcade and gameplay took precedence for the most part while still leaving the overall package entirely brutal to players.

[WelshMegalodon]

Well one crucial aspect of my point is money, if you wanted to know both worlds you needed more than just one machine at home, and that definitely wasn't common at the time.
Depended greatly on what the parents were inclined to pay for.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you. It's depressing to think that the console and home computer scenes ignored each other as much as you claim they did, but it wouldn't surprise me. Home computers survived the crash, after all.

I'm pretty sure that comment was directed at the past though, and NOT the present nor the future. :3

Obviously it's not a catch-all statement either, but as a broad generalization there's a lot of truth to it.

Westerners were behind such oh-so-realistic arcade classics as Centipede, Joust, Star Castle, and Robotron, in addition to games like Choplifter on the Apple II and Defender clone Dropzone. And then we have Oil's Well, Space Taxi, Jet Set Willy, and Montezuma's Revenge...

Japan is also no stranger to simulations, with games like Koei's popular Nobunaga no Yabou and Sangokushi series, or to stat-heavy games with some degree of "realism", considering every dungeon crawler, tactical RPG, dating sim, and raising sim ever.

While not falling into any of those four categories, Hydlide 3 is especially interesting as it forces the player character to eat, sleep, and even mind his equipment weight. (It's still a rather average game, but whatever.)

Again, there is some truth to what trap15 said, but I still consider it a dangerous generalization to make.

EDIT:Yars' Revenge is a console game. In fact, its being a console game is one of the reasons it's so important. Thanks to BrianC for the correction.

[BrianC]

Westerners were behind such oh-so-realistic arcade classics as Centipede, Joust, Star Castle, and Robotron

Fixed. Yars' Revenge was a console game.

[WelshMegalodon]

And a damn important one at that. My bad, of course it's a console game.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Westerners were behind such oh-so-realistic arcade classics as Centipede, Joust, Star Castle, and Robotron

Fixed. Yars' Revenge was a console game.

For what it's worth Atari and Williams Electronics weren't a European companies initially either.
Their stuff may have been *ported* but simply being Western does not make them examples of the European subset.

Japanese make simulation games, sure. But I'd argue they've not fitted that to their shmups as much as European computer game developers.
So, a better example might be European designed and programmed shmup arcade games or games Japanese have made for home computers.

[zaphod]

The main issue with typical Euroshmup traits, is that the simulation aspect goes to war with the challenge spect, and wins. the health bar thing, for example. To retain the challenge, stuff that's impossible to dodge, practically impossible to dodge, or kills you outright has to be thrown at you. if stuff is killing you outright the health bar doesn't mean anything. If you can win without getting hit, again the health bar is meaningless. and if you can't win without getting hit, you can be dead and not know it yet. To be fair that can happen in real life, but tha't snot very fun their either.

On the other hand, we have inertia, which is definitely a simulation trait, and one that makes it even harder to deal with the bullets that are eating away at your shield bar. the limitation enforced by the inertia restrict the amount of fair challenges that can be thrown at the player.

For a true sim the gameplay itself has to be full 3d, and such games have gotten made on all sides of the pond.

It's shoehorning sim stuff into a 2d plane (which isn't a simulation at all) that seems to cause all the trouble.

[Sumez]

Don't forget that if you're able to dodge everything, upgrading your shield won't mean a thing! :3

[MathU]

Remember that time when JoshF compared Gunstar Heroes to a euroshmup?

I'm sorry I missed that one. Nice to hear that I'm not the only one who's come to the realization before that it shares a number of design pitfalls with euroshmups.

[Despatche]

It seems that noone has mentioned the actual problem with euroshmups. Too many people deride random games for having a lifebar here or a shop there, not understanding that the presence of any particular trait isn't itself a problem. The entire purpose of the label is to call out a string of European-developed games that like to use some or all of this set of traits... and more importantly, do not take game design into consideration, instead just stuffing a bunch of mechanics in a game and going crazy with enemies and levels. This is the key. You can have every single trait on "the list" and completely avoid the euroshmup label if you just make a well-balanced game around it.

It's not so much that it's "hard" to make a well-balanced game with a lifebar or inertia, it's just that we don't have a million great examples to study from like we do with so-called "orthodox" shmups. Someone has to put in the effort to tinker with ideas and possible gameplay situations, just like Namco and Toaplan and CAVE had to do over the years. Games like Fantasy Zone and Guwange are great examples of knowing what you're doing with shops and healthbars.

If you're looking for Japanese euroshmups, you have Lenen Teneisenki, the most extreme example I have seen out of any developer in a very long time. Naturally, people who also do not care about game design think the game is great, and depending on who you talk to they will try their best to convince you that terrible game design is a wonderful thing that we should praise and cherish.

[Shepardus]

Lifebars aren't even that different from a life counter (in a non-checkpointed game) anyway. Games like Espgaluda, Pop 'n Twinbee, and Deathsmiles already blur the line by portraying their life counters as health bars and keeping the player in the same position when they get hit (as opposed to blowing them up and respawning them). The one real difference I can think of is that with a healthbar you have the flexibility to make different things do different amounts of damage, and I don't think that's a bad thing - it works well enough in Astebreed. The criticism directed toward healthbars in euroshmups - namely developers making it impossible to avoid taking damage, and individual hits not carrying any weight - would still hold if they instead gave a billion lives. Even giving the player tons of resources isn't necessarily a bad thing - people like Mecha Ritz despite it giving so many lives and shields many people clear it on their first try.

[Sumez]

At least if you give the player a life bar in a shmuppenshup, have the guts to not pair it with a lives system. In 1942, if you lose all of your meter, you're out, game over. Feel free to sacrifice it for special attacks though.

[Shepardus]

Guwange kind of has both (I say kind of because its health system is quite minimal). Mecha Ritz's shield system is so forgiving it may as well be called a health system, and it's got lives too. Both get away with it just fine. Guwange's health system doesn't add a whole lot to the game in my opinion (except for scoring where losing health isn't as bad as losing a life, though I would have preferred it if the game were just forgiving in both cases), but it doesn't hurt either.

[Perikles]

At least if you give the player a life bar in a shmuppenshup, have the guts to not pair it with a lives system. In 1942, if you lose all of your meter, you're out, game over. Feel free to sacrifice it for special attacks though.

There are more than enough games with health of some sort and more than one life that work: Cyber Core, Dragon Spirit (and the PCE Saber), Forgotten Worlds, Magical Chase, Mr. Heli no Daibouken, Override, Phelios, Vapor Trail and Undeadline immediately come to mind. Forgotten Worlds, Magical Chase and Mr. Heli even feature shops where you can buy health upgrades and extra lives in the case of the first two games. All of those games are fundamentally hale in their conception, it would certainly be possible to tweak their health systems or maybe even remove it in a few of those entirely, but they all are thoughtfully implemented and don't water down the experience. You can have something like the arcade Kiki Kaikai where you die on the first hit and then the first SFC game which is easily as arcade-like in its tailoring yet has health and lives on top of it.

It's really only problematic in a game like Uchuu Senkan Gomora or Xenon 2 Megablast where it serves as an excuse for the designers to not bother with the actual gameplay anymore. I've never heard anyone say the Darius games fail at elementary qualities because the shields can not only withstand several hits, but are restored/upgraded constantly by picking up orbs - they could've represented that with a health system too if they wanted, the relevant part about it is that it works.

[CloudyMusic]

Guwange's health system doesn't add a whole lot to the game in my opinion (except for scoring where losing health isn't as bad as losing a life, though I would have preferred it if the game were just forgiving in both cases), but it doesn't hurt either.

I really don't know whether I think the game is better or worse because of it necessarily, but the way it works is somewhat interesting, at least. The damage you take from bullets is lessened when you're in "focus" mode, while damage you take from colliding with enemies is increased. Vice-versa for unfocused mode. Combined with the fact that being in focused vs. unfocused mode is pretty central to the scoring system, it creates a risk/reward based on which mode you choose to be in at any given time.

[BulletMagnet]

I've never heard anyone say the Darius games fail at elementary qualities because the shields can not only withstand several hits, but are restored/upgraded constantly by picking up orbs - they could've represented that with a health system too if they wanted, the relevant part about it is that it works.

I'm not familiar enough with the Darius series to know offhand, but I am curious: are the games at least theoretically playable/beatable without utilizing the shield? I recall seeing a Gaiden superplay some time ago where certain patterns struck me as nigh-undodgeable...

[WelshMegalodon]

As a newcomer to the Darius series, I find them difficult to play without some sort of turbo function.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

A shield powerup is essentially a 1up with no weapon loss on the next collision. How's that for blowing your mind?
That said they appear in most Gradii Darii and Gaiares (off the top of my head).