Do you miss the pre bullet hell era?

[Pixel_Outlaw]

Perhaps this has been asked before, if so please forgive me.
I've been gone for a very long time.

But it seems that most of what we get state side these days are hard as nails arcade shmups.
Don't get me wrong, I love the occasional piloting of loli's and cotton candy colored enemy shots.

However, I look across my old consoles and sometimes miss the time when shmups were a bit less intense.
I'm not suggesting that lazy play is a good thing but it seems that developers just want to make hard arcade games.

Does anyone see the return of the home console difficulty shmup?
Most of what I've played for Xbox 360 are arcade difficulty games. (Don't get me wrong I DO love em)
I will say that Eschatos and the shooters on Retro Game Challange were good.

Everything is just so chaotic anymore.
Granted we fans keep getting better and better with the years I suppose.

I suppose I could do my part and start to work on one for Windows/Linux.
I do know a handful of programming languages.

[Squire Grooktook]

In general, I think bullet hell improved the genre. The advent of games emphasizing scoring systems was a big stepforward for replayability: you can ignore them if you're satisfied with the game as is, or you can focus on them if you want an excuse to take the game farther when if it's no longer challenging to you.

On the other hand, there are things I miss about the classic era.

I really, really, really miss environmental hazards. Bullet hell can get by without them because the bullets and enemy placements can be just as much of an intellecutual challenge, but walls and other environmental traps can create unique challenges of their own while giving a unique personality to stages. I feel shmup developers have made a sore mistake in neglecting them.

I also miss the emphasis on wacky gimmicks and weapon systems of ye olden days. Nowerdays, almost all the gimmicks are concentrated soley in scoring, so if you're not interested in performing specific sets of actions purely to see a number rise, you're not going to see much to a game besides a danmaku shooter like any other danmaku shooter. I'd like to see more weapon systems like in X-Multiply, R-Type, Gradius, Image Fight, Biometal, Radiant Silvergun, etc.

Also too much focused micro tapping, not enough fast movement from the player.

Note that there are exceptions to the above (Akashicverse, Cho Ren Sha, Ether Vapor, Hellsinker, etc. etc.)

[Blackbird]

I think there's a pretty good variety out there if you're just looking at more relaxed difficulty, especially if you start looking at indie shmups.

[Pixel_Outlaw]

I think there's a pretty good variety out there if you're just looking at more relaxed difficulty, especially if you start looking at indie shmups.

Perhaps that is true. I've been on Linux for about 4 years now. We've got nearly all of Kenta Cho's work ported over, but Japanese indie devs seem to prefer Windows only.

I also miss the emphasis on wacky gimmicks and weapon systems of ye olden days. Nowerdays, almost all the gimmicks are concentrated soley in scoring, so if you're not interested in performing specific sets of actions purely to see a number rise, you're not going to see much to a game besides a danmaku shooter like any other danmaku shooter. I'd like to see more weapon systems like in X-Multiply, R-Type, Gradius, Image Fight, Biometal, Radiant Silvergun, etc.

Don't forget the enemy weapon stealing of Gaiares.
Thought that game *is* a notoriously difficult game for a 90's console shmup.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think there's a pretty good variety out there if you're just looking at more relaxed difficulty, especially if you start looking at indie shmups.

Yeah, I mean it's not so bad, there are a lot of different styles out there, so you're bound to be able to find something you can dig. I'd say overall the genre has gotten better with time. There's just certain things out there that I'd like to see more of.

[Shepardus]

I dunno, you say all we get are "hard as nails arcade shmups," but frankly I find most "old-school" shooters more difficult than many bullet hells (CAVE second-loops or other highest difficulties notwithstanding), probably due to my relative lack of experience with them. I don't mind the proliferation of bullet hell myself, as it's what brought me into the wider genre in the first place. To some extent, the tendency towards bullet hell was somewhat inevitable, as even more "old-school" series like Gradius and Darius could fit more bullets on the screen as technology improved, and kind of needed to as screen resolutions increased (compare Gradius V or DBAC/DBCS with earlier titles in their respective series).

I do agree with Squire, though, that developers could be striving harder for more variety outside of scoring systems and bullet patterns. There's a lot of games these days (mostly Touhou derivatives) that play really similarly to each other besides their scoring systems (and many of the less creative ones even have Touhou-style point items and Touhou-style grazing) and they end up feeling like remixes of each other with different bullet patterns. Not that there's anything wrong with these games existing (the more the merrier, really), but I can't help but feel that so much more could be done. I mean, the few times ZUN has strayed outside his standard formula and made something that feels different on a fundamental level, he produced some of his best games like Fairy Wars.

If both developers and players don't constantly push for more variety, we could easily forget many of the lessons learned from older games. As a latecomer to the genre myself, it took me a long time to realize lessons as simple as that terrain can have an effective place in shmups, or that creative enemy movement can enhance the game just as much as creative bullet patterns, or how much fun can be had in dismantling a multi-part boss, or any of many other lessons because all I had been playing was Touhou and that's all I thought shmups could be. I'm still learning new things as I play old games, and it'd be a real shame if we simply forgot that these games exist or dismissed them as being from a bygone era.

That said, there's a lot of doujin and indie shmups out there, so chances are you can find what you're looking for if you look hard enough. You just have to know where to look and make the effort to look there, or else fall into the trap of thinking shmups are less than they actually are.

[Ghegs]

I really, really, really miss environmental hazards. Bullet hell can get by without them because the bullets and enemy placements can be just as much of an intellecutual challenge, but walls and other environmental traps can create unique challenges of their own while giving a unique personality to stages. I feel shmup developers have made a sore mistake in neglecting them.

I've wailed about the wane of environmental hazards for years, so no surprise that this echoes my sentiments. Scoring systems have certainly brought longevity to the genre, but I'm sad that it happened at the expense of environmental hazards. And horzies. The two tend to go together quite often. And while there are some excellent examples of scoring systems with environmental hazards (some listed in this list of horzies with good scoring systems), I wish there was a whole lot more.

[Despatche]

I do agree with Squire, though, that developers could be striving harder for more variety outside of scoring systems and bullet patterns. I mean, the few times ZUN has strayed outside his standard formula and made something that feels different on a fundamental level, he produced some of his best games like Fairy Wars.

which is a ridiculously hardcore scoring game that works mostly the same as other touhou games, and is more or less "bullet canceling done a little differently"

the game you're looking for is shoot the bullet, a game i'm surprised people even acknowledge as a shmup, considering all the crazy restrictions they put on that word

[Squire Grooktook]

Fairy Wars more on-demand bullet cancels, and the way they chain/infect bullet patterns does feel pretty unique (not to say it's the first game to ever have such mechanics, but it manages to eek out its own personality through them, imo). It's no IREM weapon, but it's cool.

[Xyga]

Stoop Q: Can we say the undestructible lazor turrets in DFK are environmental hazard ?

[Squire Grooktook]

Close enough methinks.

[NTSC-J]

Yeah, those were great.

[MintyTheCat]

I don't really 'miss it' as I still play the old and the newer Shmups personally.

In the early days it was making a Shmup as best you could given the resources. These days and latter years the available resources increased and improved.

I like bullet-hells as much as I like the Shmups before really. I am not one to glorify one sub-genre and forget the rest. After all, there are many older Shmups that I find a lot harder than bullet-hells such as Image-fight.

I agree that scoring was something that pushed the genre forward but the more strategic way of playing came in long before bullet-hell took off.

This genre represents and evolution over time and I cannot cut it off after a certain point; hell, it goes all the way back to before space-invaders for me.

[cfx]

.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'd say the loss of those elements is not an improvement, but the scoring systems are: if you don't like the scoring mechanics, no harm done. If you do like them, you got something extra to play with. It's a win/win design choice most of the time.

Also, there are still games that have those elements (environmental hazards, walls, gimmicky weapons etc.). They're not as common or "mainstream" to the genre, but their there in quality if you look.

For instance, if you want walls, try Strania, Satazius, and Darius Burst.

If you want gimmicks and unique weapon systems, try Akaashicverse, Hellinker, Ether Vapor, Astebred, Kamui, RefleX, Alltynex Second, Strania, Eschatos.

I wish there was more of this stuff, but there's enough that I can't complain, and think that overall the genre has gotten better, more diverse, and more nuanced overall..

[Koa Zo]

Thunder Force VI

[Tregard]

I don't care about scoring systems really, and with that I find the bullet hell games all tend to feel alike. With no interaction with the background, it's just a sea of bullets over pointless wallpaper that might as well not be there. A bit of an exaggeration of course but after enough of the games that's how it starts to feel to me.

I was getting this feeling with Cave's last couple of Dodonpachis. I sometimes get the impression that if they implemented a "detective vision" mode in shmups, where at the press of a button the art would recede into the background and leave only the bare mechanics, that quite a high proportion of the hardcore players would use it exclusively in their quest for the 1CC. I do like solid mechanics, strong scoring systems and so on, but the character of the game is just as important to me, and I would happily put time into a game with a strong art design and mediocre mechanics (Silpheed: The Lost Planet and Sine Mora spring to mind).

Having said that there are plenty of bullet hell games with a strong, unique style, though you have to go back a ways to find them. Ketsui and Ibara are Cave stand-outs for me.

[Squire Grooktook]

I sometimes get the impression that if they implemented a "detective vision" mode in shmups, where at the press of a button the art would recede into the background and leave only the bare mechanics, that quite a high proportion of the hardcore players would use it exclusively in their quest for the 1CC.

I doubt that, cause backgrounds can be extremely useful for memorizing stages. X enemy formation will appear when background scroll to Y point, etc...

Plus it's not really distracting or anything. It's not like people mute the music either.

Otherwise I feel you. Personally, I put gameplay over aesthetics 99% of the time for shmups, but it's definitely nice to have a game with personality.

[RHE]

yes

[TransatlanticFoe]

I miss pre-bullet hell, but I don't miss console difficulty shmups purely because they're usually too easy. Though I do appreciate it when an easy game offers interesting higher difficulties (Thunder Force, Super Aleste, Power Strike 2). Nor do I miss environmental elements, especially when not enough is done to distinguish a hazard from a background (hi Sturmwind), because they're mostly used as a cheap "memorise or die" (Thunder Force III does this a lot) moment that's frustrating the first time you're killed by it but then you remember how to avoid it. Though again they can be implemented well, such as in Border Down where you're given grace on collision with the environment.

As stated it tends to be complex scoring systems that make bullet hells stand apart from each other, but the reward from them is often restricted to high level play - such as rigid stage route chaining or strict memorise point blanking. I prefer more flexible scoring elements like Trizeal/DeltaZeal's short medal chaining, where you don't suffer from a dropped medal but nor does chaining take priority in gameplay - allowing you to focus on blowing stuff up and having fun. As far as bullet hell scoring systems go, I most enjoy Akai Katana Shin/Slash's system where you fly into the carnage caused by unleashing your katanas.

[dink]

If I have a craving for a classic-style shooter, I'll just load one up and play it, no big deal
So, I guess the answer is no. I do have an equal place in my heart for both kinds, though.

best regards,
- dink

[supergrafx77]

CAVE and Yagawa is BEST.
The slight side condition is there is still room for quality horizontals such as Gradius V, R-Type, Thunder Force, etc....
Everything else is Neanderthal ape shit that belongs in a museum. PC engine, rest in peace.
In conclusion, I feel that bullet hell is not hell but an evolution of good AI in the way bullets would come at you in a nice way.

[LordHypnos]

Though I admittedly have pretty limited experience compared to some folks on here, I usually do enjoy stage hazards when I meet them in a game. They can add an interesting dimension. As far as old stuff goes I tend to find that it's just not quite as easy to play as new stuff. I think it's mostly the pacing.

I would love to play a game with more modern pacing (and length for that matter) but stage hazards. It doesn't work super well to mix danmaku patterns and stage hazards though, IMO, just gets too busy, unless you have kind of simple basic patterns. I think Fast Striker actually does a good job of mixing very easy danmaku patterns with interesting stage hazards, but there are definitely some parts of the game that do it better than others. Stage 3 is my favorite with the laser grid thing.

Another good example of a more modern feeling game with stage hazards is the weird rotating things in Eschatos stage 3. Sometimes it can be difficult to know where it's safe to go because of the fact that it uses 3D perspective, other times it makes total sense, though. Overall it's one of my favorite parts of the game, I'd say (though I haven't seen anything past parsec 17 yet). Having to dodge bullets while avoiding stage hazards can be very engaging.

As far as weapons systems go, old games seem to put more effort into making them interesting. That being said though, IMHO Mars Matrix easily stands it's own with some of the best examples in older games for interesting weapons systems, and that's a decidedly modern feeling game (even though 2000 is a long time ago, now). There are some others too. Eschatos has a pretty interesting one. Dragon Blaze, of course. Triggerheart Exelica's tractor beam. Looks like Darius Burst has something cool going on with the detachable burst unit. There are others that are still interesting though maybe a bit less unique. That stuff is out there.

[system11]

I miss:

Environmental hazards, straight up stage design.
Realistic difficulty levels for casual players.
Sniper tanks.
Horizontals.

[chempop]

/////WARNING//WARNING//////
-A PIXEL OUTLAW APROACHES-

Welcome back dude. I miss the style of chip tune music from the classics more than I miss the gameplay.

[JBC]

I miss them because I like to have a chance to admire the background. Bullet hells are often pretty easy for me, but demand laser focus on my ship's path. When playing the environments may as well not be there. I'm also not wooed by the bullet pattern visuals, which remind me of Windows screen savers & drooling candy kids.

There's still a few bullet hells that I like but overall my allegiance belongs to traditional shmuppn's

I'll have a PS4 soon & Dariusburst :>

[Jeneki]

The mid-late 90s is when most of my favorites come from. Not quite all-out bullet hell, but during the slow buildup when shmup developers experimented with new and creative things to do.

[Strikers1945guy]

I miss certain things. Not environmental hazards though... hate those. Miss games like Sky Shark or the original Raiden with simple graphics, old school music, sniper tanks/planes/boats. I find some of those games a lot harder than the typical cave fare, once you hit second loops especially. Or at least for me they are much more fun to play these days.

Huge hit boxes with simple and fast bullet patterns. I really dislike the cave stuff especially newer stuff that has the super trance / techno / whatever you want to call it music. Espcially Saidaioujou.

I guess I can't say I hate environmental hazards. Maybe I just hate them because of all the bad memories I have with them.

I -do- enjoy many newer scoring systems and the ever overly complicated cave ones, but I do dearly miss the old school days where 99% of scoring high was just don't die, kill everything, go as far into the loops as you can. Didn't have to worry about tapping the fire button in some sort of mystical pattern or worry about switching my transgender fairy into super slow down mode to cancel bullets and try and micromanage my gold/gems ratio. Those are fun too, but sometimes I just miss the old school shoot shit kill shit get points.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I do miss the old-school arcade shmup era but that was during a time of the mid-1980s and into the early 1990s when such cool innovations and newfangled gameplay/game mechanics were introduced to spice up/improve the shmup genre for the better. It was during an era of the almighty quarter/yen/pence was considered the "gold standard" to credit up a serious session at the local arcade/game center (forcing the veteran arcade shmupper to try to master said game with the least amount of real money spent to learn the finer "ins & outs of what made said game tick" + getting "into the zone" to finally do that elusive "1-life 1CC" session once & for all). If you made it to #1 on the high score list, some local arcades would have your initials, high score and game title for all to see upon entering said arcade -- how cool was that? It worked by using local talent/wizardry of the arcade gamer aces being recognized for their high level of mastery/skill & was considered a forerunner to the modern-day online rankings and whatnot these days (given the pre-internet age of arcades back then).

Try playing the 2nd loop of the arcade PCBs of Data East's Vapor Trail and American Sammy's Daioh -- the bullets themselves move faster than your fightercraft does -- how do you top/overcome that particular situation at hand (especially when trying to do a serious 1-life 1CC session)? (It does require a high level of mastery to do such a 1-life 1CC session with either arcade PCB title nowadays.)

Which brings up the subject matter of the classic Psikyo flavored arcade titles with 'em "sniper bullets" mechanics/gameplay to contend with (Strikers 1999 aka Strikers 1945 III/Gunbird 2/Dragon Blaze comes to mind). Suppose Psikyo did a true Gunbird 3 arcade PCB sequel release instead of Dragon Blaze as it's final swan-song -- the only way to top/outdo what was introduced in GB-2, is to have some more new characters introduced/crazier and arching storylines with all the characters (and possible breaking the "fourth window to acknowledge the arcade player for their continued support over the years" nod/tribute) & lastly, a new Psikyo stylized game mechanic to spice up the gameplay/advance the GB series along in proper fine form. (That'd be expected/considered the norm with said arcade shmup PCB titles, indeed.)

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[mamboFoxtrot]

I see a lot of posts talking about bullet hells and environmental hazards/walls like it's a before-and-after affair, but, as far as I can tell, weren't vertical shooters with those things more the exception than the rule since the beginning? I would like to see these things incorporated into bullet hell games more often, though.

As for the difficulty, well, even though I'm a bit of a fumble-fingers and never really go "full shmup", I still prefer the arcade-level of intensity. Some of the easier console shooter's or "Novice" modes I've tried just feel too lackadaisical. Though, I feel this is more to do with the easier games just not having enough going on (aka considerable stretches of time where you literally do not have to do a damn thing) rather than simply being easier. I feel like the genre as a whole doesn't have a lot of true "middle-ground" when it comes to difficulty.
Likewise, as some others have mentioned here, I don't find older (arcade) games to be that much easier. Sure, there's less bullets, but you're a much bigger target and typically lose some or all of your power-ups upon death, and maybe go back to a checkpoint, as well. If anything, I find the older games harder to play due to those things (especially checkpoints) really testing my patience at times.