Battle Garegga Q&A (livestrm, date: TBA) [POSTPONED]

[Icarus]

Eaglet, Plasmo and I have been discussing the idea of a Q&A stream for Battle Garegga, where we discuss strategies and techniques for the game. This is because we noticed a lot of misinformation going around, as well as some misunderstandings about how to approach the game both from a play standpoint and a technical/system standpoint. As the three of us have a lot of experience with the game, we felt that we could do something that would help new players understand the game more, and thus improve their enjoyment of it, as well as dispelling some myths and suggesting some new approaches.

So our idea is to hold a live Q&A stream on my Twitch channel - http://twitch.tv/IcarusFW - where we'll discuss as much of the game over Skype/Mumble as we can, and provide play examples (via save states etc) and prerecorded footage to detail our points of discussion. A quick overview of the session is:

This is in my mind what the planning for the session could look like:
Introduction of the commentators and their connection to Bettle Garage. Introduction of Garegga (under what historical circumstances it was published, influences from other games, YGW history etc.). Purpose of the presentation as such.
The Gregor mentality – A whole different mindset is needed: A bomb is not a penalty bomb, but should rather be called weapon. Suicides should be viewed differently compared to your regular shooter (going for NMNB is missing the point).
Rank and rank management
Introduction of the ships. Pros and cons.
Scoring and tactics (pointing out which parts are random and which are fixed. Which are important scoring bits and stages, which can be neglected as a beginner at first. Building up a general first training plan).
Strategizing.
Specific tips.
Lessons learned.

Video examples will be shown throughout the session demonstrating whatever it is that we're discussing in detail.
Footage needs to be recorded for how to deal with the birds and Mad Balls for all characters (this should optimally be done in MAME but in a worst case scenario we can borrow a youtube superplay for demonstrative purposes) and also for character specific tricks that are important for scoring.
Focus throughout the session should be on dispelling common myths (especially about rank) and sharing our extensive knowledge with newer players so that they don't have to fumble around as much as we've had to. Garegga is a very strict game with tiny little details (Mad Balls and birds for an example) making a big difference scoring wise. This is something that should be stressed.
Please add anything that you feel is missing or would be worthwhile.

We've set a tentative date for Sunday 15th November, which we do know is the start of trap15's tournament, but we are aiming to wrap up the stream before the tournament itself begins. We've set it at that date to give us some time to prepare everything and gather materials. The time isn't set yet, but likely to be in the afternoon EU time.

Is there anything people would like to see covered that's not already in the outline?

See you guys there. :3

[Illyrian]

If possible show side by side demonstrations of the game at low rank and high rank so people can see the differences for themselves.

I.e. The turret wall at max rank and lower rank.

[Icarus]

I think that shouldn't be too hard given the amount of footage around at the moment. "Understanding rank, its effects and how to spot it" is a point we want to discuss anyway.

[Blinge]

Damn, I'm looking forward to this.

So it's looking like score play is the main focus (obviously). Will some attention be given to survival based strategies? Or how to achieve a balance between scoring /rank management for survival?

I suppose I've just asked a question that could've waited for the actual stream..

[Icarus]

So it's looking like score play is the main focus (obviously). Will some attention be given to survival based strategies? Or how to achieve a balance between scoring /rank management for survival?

I personally consider survival and scoring as one entity in Garegga, in that by doing one (scoring) you make it much easier to do the other (survival). I do have a lot of general survival-based strategies and tricks, though, and can document them as we go along.

[Eaglet]

If possible show side by side demonstrations of the game at low rank and high rank so people can see the differences for themselves.

I.e. The turret wall at max rank and lower rank.

This we will do! I have also planned to record what happens with frame rank when you raise your autofire to show off how much of an effect it has.

So it's looking like score play is the main focus (obviously). Will some attention be given to survival based strategies? Or how to achieve a balance between scoring /rank management for survival?

Yes and yes. Being proficient at surviving is crucial to scoring since you need to plan all of your extends and suicides throughout the run for maximum profit.
I.e. we will probably show ways of making hard to survive sections more manageable but it will probably be from the perspective of surviving for scoring.
Playing Garegga strictly for a clear is a pretty simple affair.

[GSK]

I'd love a definitive statement on input lag: how much is inherent (if any), how much is added by mame, how much is in the console port, etc.

A general overview/comparison of the Saturn version would be useful, come to think of it.

[Illyrian]

Dude. Garegga is not a simple clear. That game is hard as hell. Unless you mean that the strategies employed for a survival clear are relatively simple in which case I get what you mean.

[CStarFlare]

Can there be a section dedicated to scrub clearing? Score-for-survival is an option but it's a long slog; is there a viable "1-sissy" strategy?

[Icarus]

is there a viable "1-sissy" strategy?

There is a "super low rank" clear strategy but it requires a high level of execution and technical knowledge. It's also extremely boring to watch.
Actual simple clearance strategies are easy to note though, including bomb-hoarding (in stage 5 and 6 specifically, but done everywhere else generally), boss speedkills, and always suiciding before the next extend marker. I don't think it'd be a particularly interesting discussion topic to be honest, but we'll see how it goes with regards to organising the full session plan.

[Tarma]

Sounds good. So long as it's broadcast at a reasonable time of day I'll be tuning in!

[ProjectAKo]

noice

[copy-paster]

I want that super low rank clear!

[ciox]

I wonder if this would be a good place to mention some stuff like the damage caps that seem to be in all the Battle games, like how one option does as much damage against one target as 2-4 options if it's firing often enough, and it's usually a better idea to spread your fire and hit multiple targets than trying to focus something down unless you need tick points from what you're focusing down, because focusing your shot and all 4 options on a single strong enemy or part (what seems intuitive to do as a newcomer) is likely a waste.
I also feel though it's not verified yet that there's a global damage cap like shot+option+bomb can't go over a certain amount of damage per frame.

Clear example here in Batrider where the enemies die at once when one is shot with one option and the other with two options at high frequency, this is also easily tested with the turrets before Discharge's first form where you can do the same thing and other spots https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxfKObXYyl8#t=48m

I guess this could be verified some more before being disseminated, and it's not as applicable in Garegga where you can't buff your frequency by just pressing Start+A, but eh, here it is.

[CloudyMusic]

These may already fall under "specific tips" and "lessons learned," but there were a few things that I eventually learned that I think could merit a quick mention if you didn't already have them on the list:

• Don't finish a full weapon via small fragments if you can avoid it (i.e. if you have a suicide coming up, try to use that to push you over the threshold)
• In places with destructible scenery, use as few fragments as absolutely necessary (in stage 4, just 1 is often fine)
• Delaying a suicide if your rank is already low enough that the rank decrease would be partially wasted (e.g. early stage 3)
• Raising autofire slightly (10Hz) from the start for certain weaker ships

I've also noticed some outdated/disproven information that's still lingering in the ST, and I know you've been talking about a larger-scale rewrite happening at some point, so I didn't want to bug you too much about it. If you'd like me to point out some of the things I've noticed or take a stab at some revisions, let me know, I'd always be happy to help.

[Eaglet]

I wonder if this would be a good place to mention some stuff like the damage caps

It honestly doesn't effect the gameplay that much and I've only had a feeling something like that was in the works when i was playing the game. Might be worth to mention but doesn't really have anything to do with what our main purpose with this is.

• Don't finish a full weapon via small fragments if you can avoid it (i.e. if you have a suicide coming up, try to use that to push you over the threshold)
• In places with destructible scenery, use as few fragments as absolutely necessary (in stage 4, just 1 is often fine)
• Delaying a suicide if your rank is already low enough that the rank decrease would be partially wasted (e.g. early stage 3)
• Raising autofire slightly (10Hz) from the start for certain weaker ships

Fragments needed depends on ship type.
All of this is stuff that we'll be mentioning but more in depth and in a broader context.

Dude. Garegga is not a simple clear. That game is hard as hell. Unless you mean that the strategies employed for a survival clear are relatively simple in which case I get what you mean.

That was my meaning.
However, clearing the game is still a pretty simple affair if you utilize the resources we'll be giving you with this session. Controlling rank is extremely easy if you're not scoring.

[pestro87]

Sweeet!!! This is a really cool idea! Looking forward to everything regarding Golden Bat.

#GoldenBatMasterRace

[Gamer707b]

As someone who prefers playing on the OG console and cant afford/doesn't have the space for a cab, is the Saturn port done really well? is it comparable to the arcade version? What are the main differences between the Saturn game and the arcade? I'd love some light shed on this during the livestream.

[Shepardus]

From what I've heard it's a very accurate port, pretty much identical to the arcade version except for the lack of slowdown (which isn't a big deal compared to slowdown accuracy in later CAVE games).

I hope this Q&A does well to show people not only how to control rank, but also when you actually need to think about rank control. I get the impression that many people just see videos of high-max rank gameplay and then attribute their deaths to rank even if their rank isn't actually nearly that high. In fact parts like BH2 are challenging even at minimum rank, and getting your rank as high as what you see in one of Kamui's superplays requires you to go out of your way to push rank up. As long as you're not driving up autofire rate, or sucking up every powerup at max power or collecting lots of low-value medals, if you game-over before stage 6 your problem is probably that you're not familiar enough with the stages (both survival and scoring), not with rank. Especially if you're using Miyamoto, the most OP character in the game.

[Eaglet]

As someone who prefers playing on the OG console and cant afford/doesn't have the space for a cab, is the Saturn port done really well? is it comparable to the arcade version? What are the main differences between the Saturn game and the arcade? I'd love some light shed on this during the livestream.

Quite simple differences tbh.
Aside from what Shepardus pointed out there's also no input lag in the port, which there is on the PCB, weirdly enough.

I hope this Q&A does well to show people not only how to control rank, but also when you actually need to think about rank control. I get the impression that many people just see videos of high-max rank gameplay and then attribute their deaths to rank even if their rank isn't actually nearly that high. In fact parts like BH2 are challenging even at minimum rank, and getting your rank as high as what you see in one of Kamui's superplays requires you to go out of your way to push rank up. As long as you're not driving up autofire rate, or sucking up every powerup at max power or collecting lots of low-value medals, if you game-over before stage 6 your problem is probably that you're not familiar enough with the stages (both survival and scoring), not with rank. Especially if you're using Miyamoto, the most OP character in the game.

Honestly, the only high rank videos out there are Kamui's Gain plays and maybe Kaedes Miyamoto almost-WR video (which is high rank for Miyamoto but still not high since Miyamoto is a low-rank ship.
All of the Garegga ship superplays out there are low rank. The game is just that challenging, even on low rank.

Wow, folks, please make sure you record and publish this on twitch, youtube etc. Sounds like this could be the definitive Garegga reference.

Of course! The purpose of this whole thing is kind of to serve as an updated and better strategy thread in a more accessible format.

[ProjectAKo]

Nov. 15 can't come fast enough. In the meantime, playing Dimahoo made me really feel how much input lag I get on Garegga. That's a shame...

[CloudyMusic]

If you just want to see what the game looks like at ridiculous rank, this video has a lot of fun Harder Mode (+debug settings?) clips starting at 49:22. So technically, the rank is probably higher than it could ever get in a normal run, but you get the idea.

[Shepardus]

Honestly, the only high rank videos out there are Kamui's Gain plays and maybe Kaedes Miyamoto almost-WR video (which is high rank for Miyamoto but still not high since Miyamoto is a low-rank ship.
All of the Garegga ship superplays out there are low rank. The game is just that challenging, even on low rank.

Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make. Rank control is important no doubt, but much of the difficulty of the game, especially in the first 4-5 stages, comes from the level design itself (like any other good shmup) and it'll still be difficult at low rank; like Icarus's ST says you need to familiarize yourself with the stages (like any other shmup) before you even think about rank control.

[lilmanjs]

Will the Type 2 version be mentioned in this. I hope to be able to catch this, but probably won't. Still aside from bullet color changes and removal of several ships, is there more that's different?

[Shepardus]

None of the ships were removed in Type 2, but for some reason they did remove the ability to change your option formation.

[lilmanjs]

None of the ships were removed in Type 2, but for some reason they did remove the ability to change your option formation.

I thought they removed the hidden ships. Guess I was wrong.

[Icarus]

The Q&A will be postponed until further notice as I've just had a passing in the family and will be spending time with them to help make arrangements for the funeral and so on. I'll be going radio silent to all but my closest friends and family.

A date for this will be set in the near-future as and when I feel up to it.

Sorry guys.

[Eaglet]

Type 2 won't be mentioned other than the fact that nobody should play it. The original Japanese version is the game. No other version is.

[CloudyMusic]

Very sorry to hear that, Icarus. Take care.

[CStarFlare]

No need to apologise, take care of yourself and your family. Your audience will patiently await your return.

My condolences.