I will not die until I achieve something...

[BIL]

Mike Uyama from GDQ actually 1cc'd it and got his bliss speedrun.

He continues at around 11mins...

Doh!

Uyama actually has no-missed MS3 (the slowdown-free PS2 port, at that). Video's on SDA. Inspired me to do the same.

MS3 needed those two vertical shooter bits editing the fuck down. If you don't already have a champion wanking forearm, you certainly will by the time you're done with them. Love it otherwise.

[city41]

And when you beat the game it should show you how many continues you used. Metal Slug does this, so MS3 probably does too. I wish all action games did this.

[BIL]

And when you beat the game it should show you how many continues you used. Metal Slug does this, so MS3 probably does too. I wish all action games did this.

Yeah, MS 1-2-X-3-4 all use that same final results screen. Mission ALLL OVER.

It's a good approach. Along with Gradius V's ruthlessly cold ANNOUNCER-SAMA, whose approval I looped the game for, MS4 really helped me see the appeal of 1CCing stuff. At first "only" five credits seemed okay!

I do think it's mainly those with latent arcade gaming tendencies who'll have this reaction, admittedly. But maybe those are the only types who'll ever really convert to this stuff.

[ProjectAKo]

"most people" will not like that because they are told not to like it. mmos and even single player rpgs are much much bigger timesinks than any shmup, yet they aren't nearly as "hardcore".

the idea that you need to sit there for hours on end grinding shmups is a complete myth. spending maybe an hour or two a day, if you even want to play every day, will get you much better results and with a lower chance of burnout. what matters more than anything else is paying attention and being able to learn.

the 1cc is the most basic way to actually play the game. continues are not a playstyle, they're a cheat. comparing the 1cc to speedruns is a dead end, and even comparing scorerunning to speedrunning is extremely difficult because how speedrunning works is fundamentally different (play games in a generally unintended way). finally, the 1cc only implies a basic mastery of survival that may be further improved by 1-life clears and whatnot.

people will scream elitism, and i will say that is a most ancient meme based around fear of those who possess knowledge. back then, it actually meant something because everyone tried to keep secrets about day-to-day life. it doesn't really mean as much with video games, especially since a very small minority are the ones keeping any secrets.

people think the way they do because they are told to. you have to find a way to tell them otherwise. maybe you have to rethink how you approach this genre (and arcade games as a whole) in the process.

I don't mean taking easy 1CCs. I mean getting actual world class players interested in shmups, and 1CCs would follow from that. All of the disciplines from speedrunning transfer over, the only difference is you're breaking the game to get your arbitrary number really high instead of really low. Right now they're the biggest group of gamers nerdy enough and hardcore enough to have a chance of actually getting good at shmups. Your average person on steam is going to be too casual to give a crap, and who really cares how they play anyway.

[Obiwanshinobi]

What else is there, I think, seems to be that some people prefer to be eventually done with their games. To have them out of their way. At least I used to be like that at some point and shmups taught me there's no chance I'll ever be done with all of my faves. Which led to a reconstruction of my thinking about games as something that can't be possessed and is better off visited every now and then, like a friend. About time, too, as my backlog would already grow bigger than it made any sense.

[MathU]

I think some non-arcade doujin games such as Hellsinker and MECHA Ritz have the right idea in eschewing the arcade credits system entirely and generously expanding the extra life system so that the games are very forgiving for newcomers. At the same time there are significant rewards to not getting hit and putting yourself in danger, so the sense of satisfaction like an arcade single-credit clear is still there if you're willing to push yourself. At the end of the day arcade credit systems are just another mode of giving players extra chances, the same way that extra lives are. In most of them extra credits are essentially no different than having more lives. So when your game isn't going to have an arcade release in the first place, rather than rely on the player to figure out that they're not actually supposed to continue, why not just drop the continue system entirely?

I suppose the only issue with this approach is it demands some sort of engaging scoring system or well-implemented adaptive difficulty to adequately reward the player for seeking out danger.

[Obiwanshinobi]

My favourite Sega games (arcade or not) must be played for speed or they time out. I wonder why there seems to be no 2D shmup like those (unless Kingdom Grand Prix is one).

[Kewne]

There's one more sad thing about Steam achievement rates: most of them are using readily available achievement unlocker cheats. Jamestown in particular had a lot of people use an unlocker, likely because of a holiday-exclusive achievement that gave a bonus to one of Steam's sale events (it wasn't hard in the slightest by anyone's standards).

You can easily see this by taking a good look at the achievement clear rates for things that require a good chunk of effort versus the things that require an insane level of effort. In Jamestown's case, that'd be 1CC on Divine vs no-hit on Judgment. In CC:WI, the ordering of the achievements actually tells that there's more Unlimited 1CCs than Boost 1CCs; the leaderboards of course tell a way different story with a hundred or so Boost 1CCs but only like a dozen unique players with any Unlimited 1CC across all ship types (there can of course be valid 1CCs that don't make it to the leaderboards, but the gap between modes is disproportionately large and I'd expect the mode built around skyrocketing rank to be more affected by that anyhow, seeing as you can get a relatively easy but low scoring 1CC by intentionally bombing every 29 seconds).

Steam also filters out players that never even played the game, so it'd be even lower than that if you look at full ownership rates. SteamSpy reveals a ~44% player rate for CC:WI and a ~57% player rate for Jamestown (compare "Owners" and "Players total"). Not surprising due to them being bundled and put on sale for a few dollars, just saying it's not a factor.

Ikaruga seems to have a much lower rate of full-unlockers and I think Eschatos and XIIZEAL are mostly legit as well. Those are games that haven't been in bundles or thrown on sale for less than a dollar. The latter two in particular are names that nobody outside the shmup world is likely to recognize, you pretty much have to go hunting for them and I'm not expecting much impulse-buys either. SteamSpy's player rates on those are also vastly higher; Ikaruga is at ~86% while Eschatos is at ~100%.

It's hard to get real stats, but if you were to outright throw everyone with a CC:WI Unlimited 1CC out of the stats for that game (noting that the dozen or so people that have legit clears on the leaderboards are an anomaly compared to the skill gap between Original and Unlimited), you'd only end up with 0.1% for Arcade-Original. Likewise, Jamestown Divine would be 0.1% after you throw out the 1.1% of people that have done something that there exists no video evidence of (I'm sure someone's no-missed Judgement but if 4000 people did it then there'd at least be a run on YouTube, right?).

The "aim for an 1CC" arcade-game playstyle just doesn't seem to be a thing at all for the mainstream population, and thanks to people cheating for no particular reason, the completion stats for shmups that gained popularity in the mainstream are even worse than they look at first glance. They're not just bad, they're outright abysmal to the point where clears can be easily traced back to the shmup community.

[cools]

Beowulf on the Xbox 360 was widely panned as a bad game. I'd in no way give it a great rating, I agree its a bad game. I picked it up for pennies when I saw it in a local game shop, without knowing anything about it bar the box cover and price.

I cleared every achievement, which required multiple loops and a significant chunk of time. Thoroughly enjoyed all of it. From what I remember it was the only 360 game I did that with (bar the ones that hand them out on a platter). Not very difficult, although I remember an awful lot of checkpoint restarts were necessary throughout as I died finding the optimal route.

Crimzon Clover is a wonderful game, highly regarded. I love a few credits on this, I'd put it in my top #10 shmups list. Yet I am unlikely to clear it at any point on anything other than Easy. I am more likely to decide to get off my backside and clear Ibara than CC.

Why? It's one of progress and reward. Beowulf had lots of regular rewards given and a constant sense of progression. Ibara played right gives you bombs and lives up the wazoo. CC gives you high score requirements for extends and an end of level perk. Doesn't your gauge go down when you die (its been a while since I played, sorry). Ibara your bomb gauge goes up when you die.

Most people prefer regular rewards. A 1CC is a significant achievement, but without intermediate satisfaction your average player isn't going to get one.

[Shepardus]

Depends on the mode, in Boost the break gauge gets reset on death, but in Original and Unlimited dying gives you a little bit of break gauge, though it's hardly anything relative to how quickly it charges up through regular play. I too prefer it when a game gives plenty of lives and other resources, even if it's very difficult to make up for it. I especially like it when you can improve the amount of resources you get by improving your play beyond the bare minimum, since it allows multiple avenues for improvement and progress - either get better at the later stages, or get better at the earlier stages so you'll have more to work with in the later stages. I've seen this done in a number of ways, such as score-based extends (Garegga) or extends tied directly to the same mechanics as scoring (Fairy Wars), extends tied to survival (Subterranean Animism), or Yagawa-style rank systems (forego powerups in the early stages to make the later stages easier).

Ed Oscuro mentioned the possibility of displaying stats showing improvement like "you survived longer that time! Next challenge boss 5!" I like that idea, it reminds me of something in Team Fortress 2, where the game tells you after you die whether you beat or came close to beating one of your stats for the class you were playing, such as number of backstabs, number of building destructions, time survived, amount healed, etc. I can imagine this being applied to an arcade-style single-player game.

[mastermx]

Mike Uyama from GDQ actually 1cc'd it and got his bliss speedrun.

He continues at around 11mins...

Doh!

Uyama actually has no-missed MS3 (the slowdown-free PS2 port, at that). Video's on SDA. Inspired me to do the same.

MS3 needed those two vertical shooter bits editing the fuck down. If you don't already have a champion wanking forearm, you certainly will by the time you're done with them. Love it otherwise.

I'm guessing this is the run you are talking about: http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?Me ... _hard_3319

[BIL]

^ yep! He later referred to the run as "hot garbage" but it's certainly a no-miss, haha.

Worth noting that the PS2, Xbox and Neo Geo homecart versions all use the same four difficulty levels. PS2/Xbox "Hard" = Neo Geo "MVS." These are equal to the arcade version's default, Level 4. Not sure what arcade setting the home versions' highest difficulty corresponds to, but I do know Sol Dae Rokker's angry gold needles will tear your shit apart on it. edit: Uyama says it equals arcade level 6.



The face of fear (and RNG-spawned survivor's guilt)

Referring to the standalone PS2 port from 2003, JP/EU exclusive. I've never tried the much later MS Anthology, whose PS2 version apparently has input lag and mid-level loading issues. Or some shit.

[Illyrian]

^ yep! He later referred to the run as "hot garbage" but it's certainly a no-miss, haha.

Worth noting that the PS2, Xbox and Neo Geo homecart versions all use the same four difficulty levels. PS2/Xbox "Hard" = Neo Geo "MVS." These are equal to the arcade version's default, Level 4. Not sure what arcade setting the home versions' highest difficulty corresponds to, but I do know Sol Dae Rokker's angry gold needles will tear your shit apart on it. edit: Uyama says it equals arcade level 6.



The face of fear (and RNG-spawned survivor's guilt)

Referring to the standalone PS2 port from 2003, JP/EU exclusive. I've never tried the much later MS Anthology, whose PS2 version apparently has input lag and mid-level loading issues. Or some shit.

The 4th boss was exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the RNG. That boss is either super duper easy if it spams wolves and deathbeams at you or borderline impossible if it uses the gold needles.

[BIL]

Indeed.

It's either crummily lopsided boss design OR a sophisticatedly sadistic narrative device intended to simulate survivor's guilt as experienced by war veterans! You may have cleared MS3, big shot... but we both know it's only because Joey ate that bad credit first, don't we? Bury your head and silence your cry.

I like just a sprinkle of the mad needles. Enough for the post-boss dry heaves but not the tears of a man whose god has abandoned him, you know?

[Illyrian]

Lol yes.

I needed a 40 minute Codec de-briefing with Colonel Campbell after no missing that boss for the first time.

[Blinge]

Really BIL, dont post that shit in here, some of us are trying to recover goddamnit.

h-hey, why's everyone looking at me?? I didn't do anything! I got tagged by at least one gold needle I swear!

[copy-paster]

I'm guessing this is the run you are talking about: http://speeddemosarchive.com/demo.pl?Me ... _hard_3319

Corrected.

I'll support BIL 1cc'd MS3, I think only the "choosen" people can do that. Good luck to fight that boredom last stage.

[BIL]

I actually don't think MS3's that hard a game, by coinop standards - just draining, particularly with the total lack of extends*. It also generates an immense, apocalyptic cinematic pressure in its final mission, making a no-miss infernally tempting. The final zombie onslaught really isn't that tricky, and very static, but goddamn I get a bit shaky every time. Even moreso if something goes awry and a superzombie gets you in its sights. Smashing them down before they can fucking obliterate you in an unstoppable torrent of gore is quite the feeling.

Of the few arcade sidescrollers I've played, I find Ninja Spirit the most harrowingly intense and Magic Sword the most demoralisingly brutal. Would love to cane those at some point. The SNK/Nazca Slugs are pretty comfy by comparison, especially once you've got routes down and know how to budget out heavy weapons. I always felt like they were designed to entertain as much as punish, and entertain they do! MS4 is actually a more consistently difficult game, in its "licensed ROMhack" way.

*MS3 does have some seriously nasty shit on a few of its optional routes - Mission 4's Imperial Japanese army hideout comes to mind. I just scarpered through, fuck that shit! FOR NAO ANYWAY

[Blinge]

I think it's hard because it requires such consistency for a game that's usually in excess of 40 minutes. It's also a total memoriser; either you know what to do, or you die, 95% of the time.

[Squire Grooktook]

MS3 has some satisfying random moments that walk a fine balance between time honed strategy and on the spot improvisation. The opening of stage 4 is a prime example.

I kind of like the game as a "tighter" alternative to the more freestyle dodging and shooting of the previous two titles, but that horrifically bloated shmup stage is what harshes my enthusiasm or it quite a bit.

It also generates an immense, apocalyptic cinematic pressure in its final mission, making a no-miss infernally tempting. The final zombie onslaught really isn't that tricky, and very static, but goddamn I get a bit shaky every time. Even moreso if something goes awry and a superzombie gets you in its sights. Smashing them down before they can fucking obliterate you in an unstoppable torrent of gore is quite the feeling.

Slightly off topic and not quite the same, but this unique feeling reminds me a bit of Rayforce's final stage on a good run. The second phase of the final stage, right when "Quartz" starts to play, feels completely different when you reach it under pressure of a 1cc. The tension and adrenaline you've built up on the way there, along with the tense music and atmosphere of the previous stage, gives the stage's contrastingly serene soundtrack and clean, spherical vista an enchanting dreamlike atmosphere that I really haven't experienced in any other game.

It might sound pretentious, but I swear it's one of my favorite moments in any stg or game.

[BIL]

Oh no, I totally get that - the cinematic aspect of action gaming always appealed to me, right back from Ninja Gaiden. Screw up the performance and the show's over, no quicksaves. Optimally dramatic and technical peril will increase in concert, allowing for unsurpassed interactive heroics like Strider's planetary saviour ninja action™, and artistic curveballs like Rayforce and Radiant Silvergun's almost hymnal final ascents. Screwing up MS3's blisteringly fraught, skin-of-your-teeth mothership escape feels criminally off-script! No soldier left behind!

Strider really is easy by arcade standards, but goddamn does Hiryu's mission feel important every time.

"All sons of old gods... DIE!" "NO U"

Years ago, I thought Rayforce's "The Plot Thickens" was an interesting trackname for an arcade OST. But having come full circle from classic action gaming to ostensibly more "cinematic" stuff and back, the hollywood setpieces of modern games feel absolutely manufactured next to the intensity of a high-performance credit.

[Skykid]

Strider really is easy by arcade standards, but goddamn does Hiryu's mission feel important every time.

KONKURRED

It might be something of a cakewalk, but it's akin to a 20 minute movie filled with all the fun of the 80s fair and its uncharacteristic dark edge is a far cry from the Konami adventures of the same era. Yotsui definitely fulfilled his filmmaking aspirations with Strider - arguably more successfully (and certainly more concisely) than anything Kojima whipped up since Snatcher.

[evil_ash_xero]

I get that RPGs are not like Arcade games, but surely if the shmup genre is ever going to grow, we need to find ways to incentivise people to push forward with the games.

I've been a big fan of shmups, since the late 80s, and other than one or two (mild) spikes (during the PSX years, and the XBox360 years), I have seen shmups do nothing other than decline in popularity.

I would really not get my hopes up.

[qmish]

Dark Souls' success gave trend to people for "hard games" which, of couse, easier than you average 16 bit/8 bit games but harder than most contemporary games.

Could there be a shmup that will make similar impact on gamers?

[Satan]

Sine Mora lol
Unfortunately the average dickhead isn't going to pay £50 for a Shmup, so pricing is an issue. The physical media model needs to die and Novice mode should be Normal and Normal called Elite and something else to replace Hard for the savants. No one wants to be a Novice no matter how irrational that is. The average gamer thinks of Shmups as something throw away they might spend 20mins on here or there inbetween playing their Call of Uncharted or whateverthefuck. Also, more 16:9 horis on consoles.

[STG4WD]

I've been a big fan of shmups, since the late 80s, and other than one or two (mild) spikes (during the PSX years, and the XBox360 years), I have seen shmups do nothing other than decline in popularity.

I would really not get my hopes up.

But over the last decade a whole new constituency of gamers has grown up, all of whom have arcade sticks and all of whom are prepared to play a game repeatedly to level up their own skill:

Fighting Gamers.

Nobody has yet made any serious attempt to sell shmups to these guys, as far as I can see.

[Bananamatic]

fighting games are pvp, have tournaments and a western community that doesn't suck and actually plays the games at a fairly high level

none of those people want to sit alone in their room in front of a tv while having no one to discuss the game with
most of the people i know quit shmups for fighters, never the other way around

[qmish]

We need Change Air Blade 2

[STG4WD]

fighting games are pvp, have tournaments and a western community that doesn't suck and actually plays the games at a fairly high level

none of those people want to sit alone in their room in front of a tv while having no one to discuss the game with
most of the people i know quit shmups for fighters, never the other way around

Yes they are PVP, but if you want to go to Evo or the Capcom Pro Tour and place, you have to develop a mastery of some really microscopic aspects of the game. It takes hundreds of hours in practice mode on your own to get the hang of it.

Even if you do that, there's no guarantee that you'll beat someone like Infiltration or Tokido or Xian or Daigo.

At least with a Shmup you get a fair chance to beat the hardest opponent, which is the game itself. That's where the attraction of Shmups lies for fighting game fans- you get all the intensity and difficult execution BUT YOU CAN WIN IN THE END. Whereas even if you only go to pub tournaments in the UK, you can still get your ass handed to you in fighting games.

Shmups are some fun downtime games for fighting gamers. That's the hidden selling point that nobody has told the FGC yet.

And they all have sticks...

[CloudyMusic]

most of the people i know quit shmups for fighters, never the other way around

I'm an outlier but I quit fighters for shmups a couple years ago because shmups can be played whenever I happen to have a little bit of free time, and don't require going anywhere. There's still some social and competitive component thanks to the internet, but it's obviously no replacement for a local scene.

Keeping up with the FG scene required going to biweekly ranbats, once-or-twice-a-week local sessions, etc, in addition to training mode practice at home. It was a lot of fun, but it was just too much of a time commitment to keep up with.