I will not die until I achieve something...

[STG4WD]

While reading around the Metal Slug 3 page on Steam, I realised that they actually publish achievement stats on the website.

Take a look:

http://steamcommunity.com/stats/250180/achievements

Some of the stats are just baffling [edited]

However the 1CC stats are depressingly familiar: of all the people who downloaded the game, less than 1% have 1CC'd it (0.8%, precisely)


It's the same story if you look at some of the shmups:

Crimzon Clover
Ikaruga
Jamestown
Eschatos
XIIZeal

If you take a look at AAA games in other genres though, the completion stats are much higher:

Like say, Witcher 3


I get that RPGs are not like Arcade games, but surely if the shmup genre is ever going to grow, we need to find ways to incentivise people to push forward with the games. Ideally people need to understand what MON said, which is that they are quite abstract puzzle games at heart (same goes for other arcade type games like Metal Slug).


Even though the ideal is high, what is the best way to achieve this? Discuss...

(Also, be interested to see any other Steam stats pages people can find for arcade type games)

[Bananamatic]

they probably got it in a sale or a bundle and don't give a shit about it
just let it go

[STG4WD]

they probably got it in a sale or a bundle and don't give a shit about it
just let it go

Let what go? And why? If you can't contribute to the discussion then why don't you shut up?

[Bananamatic]

i also have a bunch of games i bought for an unknown reason and didn't want to play them anymore after 30 minutes
it's normal

[Illyrian]

Pretty sure almost no-one has 1cc'd MS3 because it is a bullshit unfair money stealer of a game.

Once you accept that you can have a lot of fun with it.

[Shepardus]

In this day and age it's already a major accomplishment just getting people to buy these games in the first place. As Bananamatic said many people probably got these games in bundles or impulse purchases and don't actually have any intention of playing the game; trying to convince the 36% of people who haven't cleared stage 1 in Metal Slug 3 to play the game would be a lost cause, as you'd have to first make them remember that they have the game. As for the other people who have played the game but haven't 1cc'd, I doubt even many people on these forums have high 1cc rates of many of the games you've listed, so you may want to start with that before thinking about the larger population. Besides, I wouldn't push anyone to beat a game they don't want to play.

[Jonst]

Illyrian, our very own blinge has 1cc'd Metal slug 3...

EDIT: his ikaruga missions are also well documented here!

[Icarus]

Besides, I wouldn't push anyone to beat a game they don't want to play.

This.
It's a sure-fire way to get someone to hate something even more.

If you can't contribute to the discussion then why don't you shut up?

Watch your language. The topic title is already quite sensationalist, your confrontational posting style won't do it much favours.

Besides, Banana and the others have already touched on the root of the problem: people buy them on the cheap or as part of a package. If someone wants to clear the game, they will, in their own time. Trying to make them clear the game is counter-productive to what you're proposing and against your desired end goal.

[STG4WD]

Edited as some people thought this was a thread about bought but unplayed steam games... I don't actually give a sh*t about that.

The actual question is, how to incentivise (not MAKE) more people who bought Steam shmups to go for a 1CC.

DISCUSS.

[Blinge]

Illyrian, our very own blinge has 1cc'd Metal slug 3...

EDIT: his ikaruga missions are also well documented here!

Haha cheers Jonst, but Illyrian's absolutely right.

Pretty sure almost no-one has 1cc'd MS3 because it is a bullshit unfair money stealer of a game.

I never 1cc'd the Steam version on normal, come to think of it, only MAME. I did on an easier mode but the achievement didn't pop. They didn't specify that it has to be normal mode, though. *shrug*

Actually I haven't got all the steam cheeves for Ikaruga yet, I'd need another stick.. or a friend.

[Jonst]

^ oh of course Illyrian is right, most people couldn't or wouldn't bother trying to clear ms3 for whatever reasons... But it's not impossible as you've proved blinge (regardless of platform it's played on)

[STG4WD]

Pretty sure almost no-one has 1cc'd MS3 because it is a bullshit unfair money stealer of a game.

Would this not also be true of, say, DOJ White Label?

Or any shmup as far as a potential Steam customer is concerned?

[vector7]

1cc stat for metal slug3 is probably even worse. Take a look at that guide for example http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =223752777: "Probably the biggest obstacle between you and 100% completion. Clear the game using a single credit. Just practice a lot. The MASTER NINJA achievement can be unlocked on any difficulty setting. There are multiple ways to cheat this achievement. You can start playing from Mission 5 in mission mode. If you are really hopeless, you can die yourself and then watch your friend complete the game." Plus i'm sure there are some people who used achievement unlocker to get it.

[Shepardus]

Pretty sure almost no-one has 1cc'd MS3 because it is a bullshit unfair money stealer of a game.

Would this not also be true of, say, DOJ White Label?

Or any shmup as far as a potential Steam customer is concerned?

Yeah, and how many people on these forums have 2-ALL'd DOJWL? Two?

[STG4WD]

Watch your language. The topic title is already quite sensationalist, your confrontational posting style won't do it much favours.

The topic title is from Ikaruga.

Love how you get on my case for trying to keep the thread on-topic, but have nothing to say about the low quality, 'drive-by', snarky first reply which adds nothing to the thread, even after recent warnings.

#ModsOnFleek.

[Shepardus]

they probably got it in a sale or a bundle

adds nothing to the thread? It's a very valid point, many of these games have either been in bundles or sold for very cheap during Steam sales and are thus subject to impulse purchases and purchases that were really intended for another game. I'm pretty sure such purchases are included in the achievement stats but are just noise in the data; if you reminded them about the game and asked them to take another look at it they'd probably just get a refund on it.

[STG4WD]

they probably got it in a sale or a bundle

adds nothing to the thread? It's a very valid point, many of these games have either been in bundles or sold for very cheap during Steam sales and are thus subject to impulse purchases and purchases that were really intended for another game.

Read the OP. It's nothing to do with people not playing games they have bought, that was just an aside.

[Icarus]

It wasn't as snarky as directly telling someone to shut up.

And the point still stands: people are likely to buy these games when they're cheap or as part of a bundle, play them for a few minutes, then forget about them. Aside from the people around here who will actively seek these games out, it's difficult to get your regular gamer to even care about a shmup in this day and age of 60+ hour games. Players today are used to games that instant-save progress, respawn checkpoints (see Dark Souls), rapidly continuing to progress further, and seeing completion markers to gauge progress - score play, and by extension a one-credit clear, are abstract concepts and difficult for people who aren't familiar with them to understand.

Maybe you'd be better served thinking of ways to educate people on these concepts. "Incentivising" them sounds like something you'd do in a F2P game.

[Squire Grooktook]

The checkpoint based gameplay of Dark Souls, Fire Emblem, or any Platinum title is as tense and rewarding as a 1cc imo.

As for Metal Slug 3, the game is quite dificult compared to most other run and gun shooters. I've made it to the final stage myself, but never bothered finishing it because the last stage requires some crazy memorization and I was feeling too lazy to set up a save state in mame. It's an okay game with some interesting setpieces, but it's not the best Metal Slug, and I'd take Contra over even the best Metal Slug's any day. Still worth playing for its best moments though.

[Blinge]

Achievement info from non shmup games has revealed completion rates across all genres as pitifully low. Read an article about it somewhere. So yeah I can only imagine the 1cc ratio on steam shmups being worse.

[STG4WD]

It wasn't as snarky as directly telling someone to shut up.

If the mods actually enforced the rules we have been warned about, I wouldn't have had to.

Players today are used to games that instant-save progress, respawn checkpoints (see Dark Souls), rapidly continuing to progress further, and seeing completion markers to gauge progress - score play, and by extension a one-credit clear, are abstract concepts and difficult for people who aren't familiar with them to understand.

Maybe you'd be better served thinking of ways to educate people on these concepts.

That's what I'm trying to get people to discuss here.

I think achievements could be used for this, if they were made a more prominent (instead of optional) part of the game.

How about showing the 'level x clear' and '1CC' achievements on the menu/home screens to make it more of an explicit part of playing the game?

[Illyrian]

Let me be clear. I say that MS3 is bullshit having actively tried to 1cc it before for a lot of hours. It is so easy to get tagged in amy one of about 30-40 places on the last mission alone and you only get 3 hits ever then it is game over. If the game let you get score extends I might have a better opinion of it.

I really do like MS3 a lot, and the MS games in general but only as credit feeders as usually it takes me about 4-6 credits to clear MS3 on normal. And that is after 20+ hours of practice

[Despatche]

you're starting to sound like obscura. the rng in ms3 mostly affects score or speedrunning

to answer the question, people inherently dislike effort; most people have to be tricked into performing and appreciating it, and there's always the minority that does not have this bizarre restraint

[Icarus]

It wasn't as snarky as directly telling someone to shut up.

If the mods actually enforced the rules we have been warned about, I wouldn't have had to.

Oh, but we do. We don't need you to jump in.
I'm also well aware of how Banana likes to post.
Now drop it. Consider this a warning.

I think achievements could be used for this, if they were made a more prominent (instead of optional) part of the game.
How about showing the 'level x clear' and '1CC' achievements on the menu/home screens to make it more of an explicit part of playing the game?

The problem with achievements are that gamers view them as a throwaway part of the game - some don't care for them, and some will actively go for them, then dispense with the game once they've got them all.

I actually liked the way the doujin version of Crimzon Clover did it - credits are limited, you had to buy them, but to do that, you had to score play to earn the currency (stars) to get them. The only issue with CC's implementation is that you could buy Free Play - I actually think a system similar to this which kept continues limited, but had a failsafe in case the player "ran out" of currency and credits would be better. That way, it ties score play to 1CC'ing, and adds a layer of danger and stress to your attempts.

[Illyrian]

you're starting to sound like obscura. the rng in ms3 mostly affects score or speedrunning

to answer the question, people inherently dislike effort; most people have to be tricked into performing and appreciating it, and there's always the minority that does not have this bizarre restraint

I never mentioned RNG. Don't strawman me.

[Eaglet]

Considering the ADD state of modern gaming in general i honestly think developers should put in an unskippable intro movie/slide/whatever when the game is played for the first time where concepts such as 1CCs and score play are explained. The biggest problems are the lack of knowledge around how these games are played, and most importantly, the lack of exposure the genre has in general.
There have been youtubers lately (slowbeef etc.) spreading awareness with the CC release and STGWeekly has been doing an excellent job so i think that we're gonna see a bit of a shift in consciousness over the following years. You have to take into account that they're all gonna be baby-steps though since the genre is so niche and fringe in the eyes of mainstream gamers.

to answer the question, people inherently dislike effort; most people have to be tricked into performing and appreciating it, and there's always the minority that does not have this bizarre restraint

I honestly don't think people dislike effort, but are rather (like all of humanity) lazy in nature.
The people who overcome their laziness and learn how to perform by applying discipline are always gonna be in a minority, but they're not that few honestly.

[STG4WD]

I actually liked the way the doujin version of Crimzon Clover did it - credits are limited, you had to buy them, but to do that, you had to score play to earn the currency (stars) to get them. The only issue with CC's implementation is that you could buy Free Play - I actually think a system similar to this which kept continues limited, but had a failsafe in case the player "ran out" of currency and credits would be better. That way, it ties score play to 1CC'ing, and adds a layer of danger and stress to your attempts.

Thanks for the constructive response to the actual thread question.

I like this idea.

[Despatche]

oh, i forgot the complaining about the staff

here's what happened

when the mods actually did their job like you people always keep wanting them to, they got called nazi mods and the forum gained this horrible reputation for being a bunch of "elitists" in a VERY different way than you might be familiar with now

the thing is that the same kind of people who are complaining that the mods aren't doing their job now are the same kind of people who had been complaining then, and who would probably be complaining if the mods took your insane advice

I never mentioned RNG. Don't strawman me.

uh, no. if there's no rng, then either the game is legitimately busted, which is easily verified and has been (negative); or the game isn't actually busted at all and you're just evoking obscura

edit: oh my fucking god

[Jonst]

I don't know that you can "incentivise" people to put effort into games that they don't care about playing.

High scoring and 1cc's are kind of old skool concepts. For me, if I didn't enjoy a game I wouldn't bother to motivate myself to get better at it no matter how much encouragement to play. I was brought up on computer games that were hard/nigh-on impossible to beat in some cases, and they had to last me a long time before I got anything new. There was no, endless choice of platform and games and certainly no disposable cash... I had no choice but to spend time with a game at a time... Which was fine as long as I enjoyed the game. There was no incentive, just personal preference and self motivation, same goes today.

[Illyrian]

Okay let me put it another way. In its later stages MS3 puts you in a lot of situations requiring pixel perfect dodges of projectiles with unclear hit box sizes where a single mistake can leave you without a special weapon and lead to you rapidly losing 2 more lives and killing your run.

Also the 4th boss is either very very easy or incredibly hard based on what attacks it randomly chooses so there is some RNG now I think about it. Either way this thread is not just about MS3