Ikaruga is actually a really good game

[Squire Grooktook]

My point was that most of Cave's games are mostly static/not random, and that high level gameplay is mostly based on predictable routes and execution rather then sight reading every single bullet. Wasn't there a quote from a high level player saying that Ketsui was 99% route/execution, 1% reaction?

I'm pretty sure you're making up those numbers.

I didn't make it up. It was a hearsay quote. But most people in the discussion accepted it as pretty close to the truth.

Another aspect you'd want to look is how interesting and complicated the things you route are, and how fun are they to execute. In this aspect Ikaruga really shines.

Yeah, you do a lot of cool stuff.

[To Far Away Times]

I appreciate Ikaruga for what it does. It's unique, has great production values, and in someways the design does feel "perfect." It's just that I could probably name 25 shmups or so that I find more fun...

I've never been too much into strict routes through games, but for some reason the R-Type series clicked for me. It's weird, because I do see a fair amount of similarities between the two in planning and strategy. I've always kinda thought of those games as a puzzle waiting to be solved too.

[Erppo]

I didn't make it up. It was a hearsay quote. But most people in the discussion accepted it as pretty close to the truth.

Yes, I remember the quote but those are not the correct numbers. They wouldn't make much sense.

[Squire Grooktook]

I've never been too much into strict routes through games, but for some reason the R-Type series clicked for me. It's weird, because I do see a fair amount of similarities between the two in planning and strategy. I've always kinda thought of those games as a puzzle waiting to be solved too.

R-Type 1 has a lot of twitch elements and routes aren't really needed for most of the game, if you're thinking of that one.

I didn't make it up. It was a hearsay quote. But most people in the discussion accepted it as pretty close to the truth.

Yes, I remember the quote but those are not the correct numbers. They wouldn't make much sense.

Was it more like 90/10 or something like that? Or bigger?

Note that IIRC the quote specified reaction, not necessarily micro dodging or anything like that. In a perfect route, reaction pretty much means a random element.

[Erppo]

Was it more like 90/10 or something like that? Or bigger?

I tried googling but I can't find the interview, so no idea. There's definitely a significant unrouteable component in Ketsui, starting with the fact that you can't entirely avoid having to dodge the suicide bullets.

[x91]

My point was that most of Cave's games are mostly static/not random, and that high level gameplay is mostly based on predictable routes and execution rather then sight reading every single bullet. Wasn't there a quote from a high level player saying that Ketsui was 99% route/execution, 1% reaction?

The problem is how high this level is - SPS may state so but for me, I don't think Ketsui has that much route/execution, there are accidents which need you to react properly to avoid death from time to time. And speaking of Psikyo, Strikers 1945 has totally unpredictable suicide bullets, a 3-way revenge from a drone can easily end a perfect 2nd loop.

For players who bear the mind of constant perfection, Shmup is a genre that aim to eliminate all uncertain factors from gameplay patterns. Every shmup, in terms of scoring perfectly, its gameplay will eventually head towards a solid, random elements ignoring route, to achieve the highest score with minimal errors.

I know I've had a shit ton of fun at where I'm at, so if the game is so bad at 30 mil, then I'll just aim for a score below that. I certainly wouldn't want to play many, many, many shmups at a "high level" that I otherwise enjoy.

Most of the people who "hate it" here and that I've encountered elsewhere, have not cleared it, let alone reach a 30 mil score. So I question how that is connected to the rest of the logic in your post.

I'm trying to say, even those who have already learnt and mastered Ikaruga don't find themselves very fond of it. People may think they should be guys who understand the inner beauty of this masterpiece from classy Treasure, yet none of them would step out and telling everyone Ikaruga "is a very good game".

A bunch of good Ikaruga players around me, such as WS. and ZWB who also play many, many, many shmups at a "high level"(or what you may think), won't address Ikaruga as "a really good game". They always found more fun within other shmups than Ikaruga.

But, since you are holding true to your FUN, case closed.

[Squire Grooktook]

Was it more like 90/10 or something like that? Or bigger?

I tried googling but I can't find the interview, so no idea. There's definitely a significant unrouteable component in Ketsui, starting with the fact that you can't entirely avoid having to dodge the suicide bullets.

Oh right, the suicide bullets. Forgot about that. Yeah, that number is definitely off then. Funny that I didn't question it at the time lol.

Likewise I think Psyikyo is a pretty good comparison, since your barely even looking at the bullets in some patterns, and sometimes moving into position before they even start firing, but there are exceptions (Dragon Blaze 2nd loop has some rng suicide bullets too).

I'm trying to say, even those who have already learnt and mastered Ikaruga don't find themselves very fond of it. People may think they should be guys who understand the inner beauty of this masterpiece from classy Treasure, yet none of them would step out and telling everyone Ikaruga "is a very good game".

A bunch of good Ikaruga players around me, such as WS. and ZWB who also play many, many, many shmups at a "high level"(or what you may think), won't address Ikaruga as "a really good game". They always found more fun within other shmups than Ikaruga.

Well, if high level play is borked, high level play is borked. And that's a shame. Notably though, my post was never addressed towards the highest levels of play. I personally don't believe what a game is like at the score ceiling is what it should be entirely judged by. Many of my favorite older shmups would suffer or become outright terrible at that level, and I don't think it's worth discounting what entertainment is there for that reason.

[qmish]

I don't mean just lining up your ship with your target, but intensively 360 no scoping tiny moving targets with a not-terribly-fast player bullet whilst avoiding hitting other targets.

Could you please explain it a bit more?

p.s.
Still haven't got past Stage 2, and that's on "easy" mode. Yeah yeah i know. I usually die when you must destroy blocks but some blocks couldn't be destroyed and when you wait for right moment to go because otherwise you can't change polarity... you can miss your chance and die. And of course that "changing colour every bunch of seconds" that is a bit later.

[mamboFoxtrot]

Anyway, here's how I would adress many of the most common "Ikaruga is a bad shmup" arguments

You forgot to address "it's too brown/grey".

[Strikers1945guy]

How is it more restrictive than DDP?
.

I guess not more so, but just as restrictive. Be exactly here to make exactly this chain. No flexibility at all to design a better run once you can chain an entire stage. Sure scoring is hard as balls but being so restrictive is just plain not fun.

[Shepardus]

At the top level when you want to get perfect chains on every enemy that appears, then yes, it is pretty restrictive, but I wouldn't say it's quite as restrictive as Dodonpachi, since you have some more leeway in the exact timing of your kills, and you have some more freedom in the order in which you arrange trios of enemies, moreso if you're doing a double-play. (Speaking of which, Ikaruga is probably the best double-play shmup ever.) More importantly, though, I find it a lot more approachable for low to mid tier scoring. If you miss an enemy you can still keep your chain by skipping a couple enemies, if you break your chain it's only 8 chains until you're back up to "MAX CHAIN MAX CHAIN MAX CHAIN," and when you're learning the game you can take chains you're comfortable with and skip enemies that you're not, and still get a decent score. It doesn't give as much a vibe of "I've got to learn this whole stage to get anything out of it" as Dodonpachi does, and you can piece together routes from their parts more naturally.

[Imhotep]

Was it more like 90/10 or something like that? Or bigger?

I tried googling but I can't find the interview, so no idea. There's definitely a significant unrouteable component in Ketsui, starting with the fact that you can't entirely avoid having to dodge the suicide bullets.

the interview with SPS is from the INH DVD booklet that GaijinPunch translated, the link seems to be down, though. I remember the figure being 97%, definitely 95 or above.

[Imhotep]

..

[Jeneki]

The only real issue with Ikaruga is when people who don't even play shmups won't shut up about it. At least twice a year I'll be playing something in a public location and some total stranger will try to break the ice by talking Ikaruga and how awesome it is and everything else is bad.

Actual conversation from just last month when playing at a local convention gameroom:

"Is this Raiden?"

"No, it's called Giga Wing."

"Oh. Ikaruga is better anyway."

"Why do you say that?"

"It's the best ever, you should try it sometime."

It's not a matter of whether Ikaruga is better than Giga Wing (I can see some good arguements both ways), but the fact that someone who doesn't even know the name instantly defaults to "Ikaruga is bestest". This happens so often it's hilarious.

I often wonder if metal heads ever get random dudes walking up and expreasing their love for Metallica and thinking they're teaching him something new.

[Ko.oS]

the interview was with SYO ten fucking years ago

[Obscura]

I often wonder if metal heads ever get random dudes walking up and expreasing their love for Metallica and thinking they're teaching him something new.

Worse. It's almost always nu-metal or modern toughguy hardcore.

[Squire Grooktook]

How is it more restrictive than DDP?
.

I guess not more so, but just as restrictive. Be exactly here to make exactly this chain. No flexibility at all to design a better run once you can chain an entire stage. Sure scoring is hard as balls but being so restrictive is just plain not fun.

That's what almost all scoring systems are like at top level play though. Certainly DDP's.

When you're learning the game or at a medium level, you actually can improvise though, unlike DDP where improv = death of chain. I don't what Ika is like at the top level (see x89's posts) but I do find it very fun to learn and gradually work in more chains.

BTW I think Prometheus's post on page 1 is the one I agree with most. Pretty much nails it.

[xxx1993]

I mostly hate it because a bunch of people I know got it for either Gamecube or XBLA, played it enough to learn how to full chain the entire first stage, and then never played another shmup again.

That said, the very first thing I did when I got off an airplane in japan was have a friend take me to a 10yen arcade where we credit fed it to the very end

THAT SAID, I prefer radiant silvergun.

I actually prefer this over Radiant Silvergun, to be honest. At least while Ikaruga has a bittersweet victory, the ending is a little more positive than Radiant Silvergun's ending. Also, while still a hard game, it's easier than Radiant Silvergun.

[Skykid]

I prefer Radiant Silvergun. Despite its nutty scoring, methodical pace and epic length, it's so grandiose, beautiful looking/sounding, and wonderfully creative at every turn, it's like ten glorious shmups rolled into one.

I think it's kind of obvious Ikaruga is a good game. "Really good" depends how you take to it, it's definitely got some unique elements you can either get into or find grating. For me it's sort of 50/50. Every time I pick it up again I feel myself drawn to its alternative elements, and then it starts to irritate me all over again.

[Squire Grooktook]

I think it's kind of obvious Ikaruga is a good game. "Really good" depends how you take to it, it's definitely got some unique elements you can either get into or find grating. For me it's sort of 50/50. Every time I pick it up again I feel myself drawn to its alternative elements, and then it starts to irritate me all over again.

Agreed. Ironically though, I feel that way more about RSG. I really like them both, and I think they have many of the same strengths and weaknesses, but the more irritating parts (weird difficulty balance, nuttier scoring system, slow move speed, etc.) are more universally present in RSG imo.

That being said, I really need to spend more time with RSG.

[Skykid]

I think it's kind of obvious Ikaruga is a good game. "Really good" depends how you take to it, it's definitely got some unique elements you can either get into or find grating. For me it's sort of 50/50. Every time I pick it up again I feel myself drawn to its alternative elements, and then it starts to irritate me all over again.

Agreed. Ironically though, I feel that way more about RSG. I really like them both, and I think they have many of the same strengths and weaknesses, but the more irritating parts (weird difficulty balance, nuttier scoring system, slow move speed, etc.) are more universally present in RSG imo.

Well that's Iuchi's overblown eccentricity right there. The case for arguing he's gone too far in places, and attempted to shoehorn in too much, is a strong one - and I think that's the reason neither game is ever firmly in the everybody-loves-it-camp. But as a piece of work I'm always willing to argue for RSG as an accomplishment. it's an incredible a feat of engineering, worth watching even if you never play it! Not sure I'd give Ikaruga the same recommendation.

Also I think if you 1cc'd RSG, it would be akin to feeling like you took on the world, then God, and destroyed them all.

[Squire Grooktook]

Well that's Iuchi's overblown eccentricity right there. The case for arguing he's gone too far in places, and attempted to shoehorn in too much, is a strong one - and I think that's the reason neither game is ever firmly in the everybody-loves-it-camp. But as a piece of work I'm always willing to argue for RSG as an accomplishment. it's an incredible a feat of engineering, worth watching even if you never play it! Not sure I'd give Ikaruga the same recommendation.

Maybe it's kind of like comparing Metal Slug 1 and 2/X to Metal Slug 3? The same quirks and nuances run through all three installments (give or take some aspects unique to each title), but like Ikaruga, 1 and 2/X are sharp, lean, and short, whereas 3 and RSG are long to the point of being "filled with towering excess". Some might say that's a flaw, but I think that gives the game (at least in my experience with 3 and Gradius V) a charm and unique style of its own. If nothing else, the sheer length of both titles makes them feel uniquely exhausting and cathartic to finish (or so I assume from my experience with Gradius V and MS3, heh).

Also I think if you 1cc'd RSG, it would be akin to feeling like you took on the world, then God, and destroyed them all.

Ha ha, always down for that.

[Obscura]

Also I think if you 1cc'd RSG, it would be akin to feeling like you took on the world, then God, and destroyed them all.

I suppose if you get a good score, it would feel like you only destroyed half of them?

[Shepardus]

Also I think if you 1cc'd RSG, it would be akin to feeling like you took on the world, then God, and destroyed them all.

I suppose if you get a good score, it would feel like you only destroyed half of them?

You would feel like Joe McCarthy as he set out to purge the world of the reds.

[Captain]

I'm just going to give a response to the title, hopefully it will be the definitive one.

Ikaruga is a great game, but a bad shmup.

There.

[Squire Grooktook]

that's dumb

[Cagar]

Honestly. People won't hate it without a reason.

This thread was exactly about how absurd & unwarranted these reasons often are.
I used to be one of these retards too. Then the steam release happened, I played the shit out of it for a few days, and after that have appreciated the game a lot more. It's a good game and a good shmup, but the popularity has already shifted elsewhere so I just don't feel like playing it more.

[Shepardus]

Ikaruga is a great game, but a bad shmup.

I think Radiant Silvergun fits that description a lot more than Ikaruga. Radiant Silvergun feels really different from nearly every other shmup, with its large amount of story (for a shmup, at least), atypical structure that doesn't emphasize a boss at the end of each stage like pretty much every other shmup does, relatively long length, unusual weapon system, and so on. It's as if Treasure set out to create a game without really thinking of it as a shmup, and it just naturally became a shmup over time but without really committing to what players normally expect out of a shmup. Ikaruga adheres more closely to the typical shmup format with its five fast-paced stages of increasing difficulty lasting a total of about 25 minutes, and simpler control scheme (the polarity being the one gimmick that sets Ikaruga's ship apart from any generic spaceship). To me it feels more polished than Radiant Silvergun but at the same time not quite as unique and one-of-a-kind.

[evil_ash_xero]

Ikaruga is my favorite shmup ever.

It's no critics darling, like Sine Mora, that actually isn't good. It's an amazing game.

[copy-paster]

Ikaruga is a god-tier game, and listed in my top 10 vertic shmup.

Some people prefer RSG, and when I first play 5 minutes it's boring as hell, even it also have heavy memorizer stage but not as good as R-Type's design.