SGDQ '15 Shmup exhibition possibility

[Softdrink 117]

Scoring and 1cc runs have no place in speedrunning events for obvious reasons. Shmups aren't speedgames and they aren't played for speed.

By that logic because shmups aren't fighting games they don't belong at FTG tournament BYOC either. And since they aren't anime they don't belong at anime conventions. And since they aren't all Touhou they don't belong at Touhoucon.

There is no venue for pure STG content at a major public event in the West, except maybe Stunfest -- and even that is - LE GASP! - mostly a fighting game and speed running event. No matter where we try to promote the genre, we will always be an exception, somewhere we "aren't supposed to be". in my mind, the only important thing is that we try -- and that we not step on any toes while we do so.

Sure, shmups don't "belong" at GDQ, but there won't be an event that they *can* belong to unless we do something about it. Anime conventions, BYOC rooms, and GDQ are all stepping stones on that path.

Hell, even someone doing a 1-ALL shitclear of Ketsui would bring new people to the table.

I can't speak for anyone else, but this has always been my impression after finishing live demonstrations for STG Weekly. I might not be a great player, but people always come up to me to talk about how they used to play shmups and are going to again because of what they saw. People get really into it -- they don't care if you don't score at the highest level, or even if you clear, as we've seen from things like Aquas and Kamui's runs of Yagawa games at Sfunfest.

I *do* agree with a lot of what's been said here about "superplayers" and the need for "WR-tier" play at GDQ; I think that the runs we submitted (with the possible exception of Eschatos as Ratikal is an exceptionally ranked player at the game) were not up to the expected level of performance. That just means we need to step up our game for the next GDQ submission, and get players who *can* perform at a higher level.

[Shepardus]

but the bottom line is that shmups do not belong in speedrunning events.

Sorry but this conclusion doesn't add up to your argument. Surely someone performing a real score run live is far better than any TAS.
Hell, even someone doing a 1-ALL shitclear of Ketsui would bring new people to the table.

I don't think a 1-ALL of Ketsui would cut it any more than it would cut it for Aquas to have 1-ALL'd Ghouls 'n Ghosts and called it a day in his run at SGDQ. Sure, it might get some new people interested in the genre, but it's far from the level of quality I would expect. For Ketsui in particular, if I remember correctly the game straight up says Game Over and takes you to the name entry screen without a real ending if you 1-ALL without qualifying for the loop - I would hardly consider that completing the game, even if it is a neat accomplishment.

At GDQ events the runners are typically able to fulfill two criteria: 1) They play the game consistently at a level far beyond that of a "normal" playthrough, and 2) they're among the best if not the best in their category, even if that's more due to lack of competition than fully optimizing the game. There may be runs that are lacking in these criteria but that doesn't mean it's fine for an STG run to not have these conditions met - if you're going to submit a game to a GDQ event that isn't even a speedrun, it'd better be something really amazing, not just better than the worst. Stunfest convinced me that Western players have the potential to do this if they really commit to it, but I don't think settling for anything less than the best we have to offer is an option.

If you really want to see STGs at a GDQ, you should start with Shoot the Bullet, Double Spoiler, or Impossible Spell Card as a gateway drug and gauge the reactions to that. They're Touhou so they're recognizable and have cool-looking bullet patterns, they're actually speedrunnable so they don't need to stretch any boundaries to be included, they're marathon-safe because mistakes slow you down rather than end your run, and hardly anyone speedruns them as far as I know (despite their being speedrunnable) so it wouldn't be too far-fetched to become one of the best in the category.

[Blinge]

but the bottom line is that shmups do not belong in speedrunning events.

Sorry but this conclusion doesn't add up to your argument. Surely someone performing a real score run live is far better than any TAS.
Hell, even someone doing a 1-ALL shitclear of Ketsui would bring new people to the table.

Scoring and 1cc runs have no place in speedrunning events for obvious reasons. Shmups aren't speedgames and they aren't played for speed.

Jesus christ. have you read the thread? Most people posting don't want to imitate speedgames.
RPGs arent speedgames and they're run, for upwards of 5 hours.
If they'll watch a bloody TAS of a shmup then why not a real player?

Learning to speedrun nearly any game and learning to 1cc/score a shmup are similar disciplines! Learning/practicing individual segments and tricks then tying it all together for a successful full run.

I can't speak for anyone else, but this has always been my impression after finishing live demonstrations for STG Weekly. I might not be a great player, but people always come up to me to talk about how they used to play shmups and are going to again because of what they saw. People get really into it -- they don't care if you don't score at the highest level, or even if you clear, as we've seen from things like Aquas and Kamui's runs of Yagawa games at Stunfest.

Softdrink's STGW live demos are probably the examples I had in mind. To the non initiate, a 1-ALL is itself a spectacle, as long as someone explains the credit system. At such an event we're not preaching to the choir.
That's my €0.02 anyway..

[trap15]

You can speedrun an RPG, thus they belong at speedrun events.

[Blinge]

Alright alright, but that point was solely in response to "they aren't speedgames."

[trap15]

If it can be speedrun, that's the definition of a speed game, no? I don't think there's any limit on run length to be a speed game...

[Blinge]

Welp.. Speedgame isn't really an established term, is it? Which means any semantic argument about it is entirely subjective, so there's no point.

[Erppo]

Isn't this the exact same discussion as earlier in the thread?

The purpose of the event is not to introduce games to people.

Simply having someone clear a game (or as some suggested, the easy half of a game) has no place in an event which is supposed to be about playing games especially well.

For Ketsui, at least have someone who can clear Omote. We're not that bad, come on.

[Softdrink 117]

Simply having someone clear a game (or as some suggested, the easy half of a game) has no place in an event which is supposed to be about playing games especially well.

For Ketsui, at least have someone who can clear Omote. We're not that bad, come on.

Absolutely agree with you here. As I've said many times, the Ketsui submission was a last minute throw-in; I do not consider myself anywhere near good enough to demonstrate that game on this kind of scale. I was as shocked as everyone else when it made it through the first round.

[Erppo]

Out of the normal shmups mentioned, Eschatos would be clearly the best choice. It's not a very difficult game and as a console shmup, you don't have to face the insanely high standards present in arcade games. Furthermore the available players actually are some of the best in that game.

StB is the best idea however, since it'd also be a speedrun.

[Elixir]

RPGs arent speedgames and they're run, for upwards of 5 hours.

RPGs are, a speedgame is just a game that can be run. You'll never see Dragon Quest VIII and its 12+ hour run at the event though.

If they'll watch a bloody TAS of a shmup then why not a real player?

TAS = tool-assisted speedrun. TAS novelties have always been somewhat of a side dish of GDQ events, but they are still speedruns by extension. Nobody speedruns Ikaruga though, and Ikaruga was also an exception. Ikaruga is somewhat iconic, much like how Megamari was the first doujin game allowed by Uyama because "Touhou has some recognition". I think you'll also notice how most of the doujin games ran at GDQ are actually Touhou derivatives (Trap Tower, Youyou Kengeki Musou, Megamari, Koumajou Densetsu, etc). Doujin games at GDQ events haven't really done anything either. I haven't seen any new runners of the doujin games presented at GDQ so far. So as far as the whole concept of "getting new people into the hobby", it's not guaranteed to work.

Learning to speedrun nearly any game and learning to 1cc/score a shmup are similar disciplines!

B-b-b-but they're kinda similar! Shmups are also arcade games so let's put them in Evo.

[Blinge]

B-b-b-but they're kinda similar! Shmups are also arcade games so let's put them in Evo.

Strawman.system11.org

[Elixir]

B-b-b-but they're kinda similar! Shmups are also arcade games so let's put them in Evo.

Strawman.system11.org

Like it or not, your own preferences of what constitutes good presentations of the genre and what GDQ classifies as acceptable in their events are two different things. From what you've written, it feels like you don't really seem to understand what I'm talking about.

My real issue here is how GDQ has gained a huge amount of popularity, and people are trying to get their foot in the door under the guise of "promoting the genre"? It isn't that simple, nor is it guaranteed to lure actual players. It just makes you come off as desperate. I'm all for promoting the genre, it's what I've done on a daily basis for 5+ years now but I'm against the notion of gatecrashing GDQ for what I see as very arbitrary reasons. I respect GDQ and what they've accomplished, and as a charity-based event I don't think it's in good spirit to use that as a means of gaining attention. If people are interested in the genre, they will come.

That's really all I have to say on the matter.

[Blinge]

Nobody speedruns Ikaruga though

You're posting incredibly obvious statements like this, and telling me i'm messing the point. Okay mate..

However, now you've finally presented a real argument in opposition we're getting somewhere.
I've no intention of prolonging this shit-slinging.

[Squire Grooktook]

Re: "shmups don't belong at a speed running event"

Who cares?

Just work them in as a side event. Bend the rules. "STG Hour" isn't going to hurt the integrity of the event. Just put em in there as a side thing and you get more exposure, more variety, more fun for everyone.

[SMC]

People who watch speedrunning events don't want to see autoscrollers

[Squire Grooktook]

Eh, maybe. I get the feeling most people wouldn't mind or would enjoy it so long as it was similarly technical and competitive. Maybe I'm wrong, dunno.

I know a few people who actually are speedrunners/into speedrunning, and most of them like/respect shmups as well, and probably wouldn't mind seeing them there so long as it was a side event. The event branching out a little to include another form of skill based, competitive single player gaming (again, provided it was a side event) could probably only be a good thing for everyone involved.

TAS = tool-assisted speedrun.

I was always under the impression it just meant "Tool ASsisted"

Hence you can have TAS combo videos in fighters showing (humanly) impossible links and combos and such against opponents with infinite hp so that they don't die in the middle.

Still, tool assisted or not, the Ikaruga thing wasn't a speedrun by any stretch of the definition. Just being tool assisted does not make a scoreplay into a speedrun, and this does set something of a precedent.

B-b-b-but they're kinda similar! Shmups are also arcade games so let's put them in Evo.

EVO is a multiplayer event. AGDQ/SGDQ is focused on competitive gameplay of single player games. Speedrunning is probably the closest thing out there to shmup scoreplay, as they both focus on competitive single player gameplay. They're not the same, but they're far more close then any other gaming event, and thus I think it would "make sense" to have an STG Hour side-event on stream at AGDQ or SGDQ in a way that it wouldn't for EVO or something like that.

but I'm against the notion of gatecrashing GDQ for what I see as very arbitrary reasons. I respect GDQ and what they've accomplished, and as a charity-based event I don't think it's in good spirit to use that as a means of gaining attention.

We would not be having this topic if they hadn't considered it themselves, let Ketsui past the first stage of entry, and allowed a Tool Assisted Scoreplay in for some reason.

If people are interested in the genre, they will come.

I have said this many times before, but I firmly believe that this genre is more niche then it potentially needs to be, not because there isn't interest, but because there's an overwhelming ignorance among gamers in general about shmups.

Many of the following apply to many, many players:

-Don't know shmups besides Galaga or Gradius exist
-Think they're all easy because you can credit feed
-Don't know they're competitive or have competitive elements
-Think they're impossible/don't know that a 1cc of Touhou on normal is achievable by a normal human
-Don't know that there are shmups that don't have lolis
-Don't know what a 1cc is
-Think score counters are just relics of a bygone age and don't actually mean anything
-Don't understand why restarting the game on game over is a good thing
-etc. etc.

Imagine if 99% of gamers ("hardcore" or otherwise) thought fighting games were "button mashers" and that "a tournament player who puts 10 years into a game will often still lose to someone mashing random buttons". That is where shmups are right now.

I think awful marketing and communication with players (among other things) has turned shmups from a small niche genre to a super niche genre. And advertising it within its own sphere of interest isn't going to help. I think games getting exposure from more popular mainstream sources is 100% advantageous in a way that (comparatively) small channels or streams like STG Weekly are not. Slowbeef repping Crimzon Clover was a godsend, but actual competitive gameplay with technical explanations on a mainstream commonly watched place would be even better.

[Bananamatic]

we could start by showing more interest in the competitive aspect in our own community

it gets depressing real fast when you realize that you're the only player outside of japan and china that gives a fuck about the game you're playing
at least speedrunners get some sort of interest from the casual players who can understand what's going on, your game is nothing more than a youtube meme with 4 million views that's apparently only possible to play if your name is chuck norris and have slanted eyes

[chum]

My real issue here is how GDQ has gained a huge amount of popularity, and people are trying to get their foot in the door under the guise of "promoting the genre"? It isn't that simple, nor is it guaranteed to lure actual players. It just makes you come off as desperate. I'm all for promoting the genre, it's what I've done on a daily basis for 5+ years now but I'm against the notion of gatecrashing GDQ for what I see as very arbitrary reasons. I respect GDQ and what they've accomplished, and as a charity-based event I don't think it's in good spirit to use that as a means of gaining attention. If people are interested in the genre, they will come.

Although I agree with you, let's not forget that GDQ has been all for showcasing STGs for years now, so it's not completely one-sided.

It's just important to consider that the same standards they apply to speedgames should also apply to STGs, so for someone to showcase a game, they need to be really good at it. Otherwise it will come off as desperate like you said.

we could start by showing more interest in the competitive aspect in our own community

Never going to happen. I understand that not everyone has the same commitment or obsessions to the same things and all, so I'm not pointing fingers, but on the whole, this community is never, ever, going to open its eyes or mind. It's too bad really, but this community a sad state.

Prove me wrong.

it gets depressing real fast when you realize that you're the only player outside of japan and china that gives a fuck about the game you're playing

Maybe I'm just a bit of a loner at heart, but I'm not especially bothered by that. I focus on the happiness the games I've discovered provides me by playing them at a high level. Since there is competition in Japan, not to mention if you already have the record, you should keep pushing it forward, that works for me. Rather than getting depressed over nobody else caring/playing, I'd rather feel elated when someone else does care.

[Frenetic]

Spreading shmups in culture is a daunting task. But it is the same challenge I liked when I first heard about clearing shmups on 1 credit.

I totally agree with Softdrink 117. We can make things happen if we try. I think speedrunning, fighting games, pinball, and shmups fall under a larger umbrella of competitive video gaming. When STGWeekly first started doing live events at fighting game tournaments and anime conventions, there would be only get 10 or 20 people at the most. 200 people came last year and at this year's AX the room was filled to capacity with 300 people. Each event built upon one another. We'd hold a panel, and I found GDLKScrub lived next to me. He's come and helped present. Little be little we're making gains.

GDQ will decide if or when shmups can came to the event. Let's just DOOOO it. Let us all keep on submitting to GDQ. Like live shmup events, it's going to take a lot of effort, and it's going to take a while but I'm confident we can make it happen.

We can bring shmup setups to the casual room, maybe get on a casual stream if GDQ implements another one. Let's be open minded. With that being said, though I personally would like to see WR-tier runs submitted first, I think there are few and far between in the Western speaking world because our shmup culture hasn't been widely spread. It's the chicken and egg dilemma, we don't have very many superplayers because the culture isn't widespread, to spread the culture we need quality runs. So, I suggest to all of you to submit your recordings of your best efforts on 1cc runs and see what sticks. Perhaps if we show interest GDQ might reinstate a casual or after hours stream. Maybe another event with different criteria might spawn? Who knows? The future is bright.

Let's not limit ourselves thinking if something isn't there doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. If you like shmups and support shmups, be creative. Play a shmup or practice a round everyday, even if you only have a short amount of time. If you are going to a convention, bring your shmup setup and chill in the BYOC area. Start a YouTube channel and film your runs, do reviews, commentary. Hold shmupmeets. Be an advocate. Go against the grain and don't let negative feelings dictate your actions. Let's be positive.

Lastly, come to STGWeekly@Animation on Display in San Francisco next year! We'll be accepting of having speedrunners at our convention, in order to bring the communities together!

--F

I can't speak for anyone else, but this has always been my impression after finishing live demonstrations for STG Weekly. I might not be a great player, but people always come up to me to talk about how they used to play shmups and are going to again because of what they saw. People get really into it -- they don't care if you don't score at the highest level, or even if you clear, as we've seen from things like Aquas and Kamui's runs of Yagawa games at Stunfest.

[system11]

People who watch speedrunning events don't want to see autoscrollers

Took long enough for someone to post this again.

There's your key to getting a shmup into GDQ, you pick one where there IS a time variable. Push-scroll games do actually exist, even if they're not flavour of the day bullet hells. Just off the top of my head and including some that people will whine about being borderline:

Mr Heli
In The Hunt
Commando
Gamshara
Fixeight
Atomic Robo Kid
Kingdom Grandprix
Gallop
Amatelass
Desert War
Outzone
Valtric

Then you also have games which have speed killing bonuses.