Cave PCBs: Black label production numbers

[el chuddo]

Blue case sealed by Cave about a year ago after changing battery (before I opened it).

New battery and handwritten eeprom inside.

close up of handwritten eeprom

official copyright screen with the extra dot

receipt from VERY reputable PCB shop who is also a reliable middleman that interacts with Cave directly..
For those who are "still wondering".. Pretty sure this didn't come from the "secret league of middlemen profiteers" that buy up white label DOJ's, install new eproms with security checks and suicide potential, reinstall new batteries, print bogus Cave stickers, and potentially trash their reputation for a few JPY.
I understand that some of my 1st posts in this thread show some paranoia, due to the ease of abuse Cave "could" have exercised. This was intended to show Cave's willingness to reprogram "extras" of a rare game.. not bootleggers and middlemen.

I think that after reading this whole thread, one could deduce that the extra dot is exactly on par with the Ibara Kuro situation, where the dot only designates that it wasn't the 1st run. For someone to still believe that Cave did not make extras and designate difference with that dot, is ignoring their normal practices. I really hope this thread does not go "south" as so many potentially good threads do. I know there are some really smart dudes in this forum and hope that they can continue to enlighten. Thanks djvinc for answering with the ver. info and missing links of this "all to familiar" Cave story.

[Skykid]

Bloody hell, getting a bit militant about it?

Conversion people trying to pass off as authentic are scum, but I'm happy more people get to touch God with DOJ BL, and equally overjoyed I won't ever have to worry about perma-suicide.

I know mine is authentic because I bought it before conversions existed, but I won't be proving it to anyone because I'd rather peddle my ass than sell it.

With me to the grave.

[djvinc]

A few more facts :
- Mine looks exactly the same as El Chuddo's
- I also bought it before the conversion existed.
- Rtw and I took a look at the Eprom content, because we needed to be sure it was legit to revive it.
The latest revision rom is bigger and has lots of both minor and major differences compared to the others (WL, BL, known BL hacks).
It made us think that it's been produced by Cave using compiler tools, not just a disassembler and hex editor (and I know what I'm talking about).

[Monstermug]

Mine to the grave too. Only because I doubt if I will ever see another. Good thing is I still play it. Bloody hard game to crack. Mine has two cave stickers on it from when the battery was changed by CAVE before I changed it myself in Feb 13. I think the poster had been reprinted though but who cares

[brokenhalo]

but i guess the question still stands: are these white label boards that were sent to cave to be reprogrammed, or were these extra white labels that cave had kicking around unsold and decided to reprogram to clear out stock? and if so were they sold as bare pcbs or as kits? i guess to help narrow it down, does anyone have a full kit with handwritten labels?

and fwiw i don't have any skin in the game. my doj bl is a cartridge . i just think it's interesting is all.

[jepjepjep]

- Rtw and I took a look at the Eprom content, because we needed to be sure it was legit to revive it.
The latest revision rom is bigger and has lots of both minor and major differences compared to the others (WL, BL, known BL hacks).
It made us think that it's been produced by Cave using compiler tools, not just a disassembler and hex editor (and I know what I'm talking about).

That's interesting stuff. Are there any known bugs in Daioujou BL (early revision)? I'm wondering why Cave would bother spending time on a new rom for an old, already-released game when they seem so overworked as it is.

[el chuddo]

A few more facts :
- Mine looks exactly the same as El Chuddo's
- I also bought it before the conversion existed.
- Rtw and I took a look at the Eprom content, because we needed to be sure it was legit to revive it.
The latest revision rom is bigger and has lots of both minor and major differences compared to the others (WL, BL, known BL hacks).
It made us think that it's been produced by Cave using compiler tools, not just a disassembler and hex editor (and I know what I'm talking about).

Very cool to know! Thanks so much for these juicy bits of info djvinc! Could you also state what the added differences are in the bigger rom?
I was too quick to think that the dot was only to designate run, due to the fact that Cave left the "freeplay sound crash" bug in this revised rom. I guess that fix is low priority for something intended to be in gamecenters set for coinplay.

Also, I'm with the others on this in terms of having this game: Don't think I can let it go either. Sold my reg. DOJ to get it, but don't want to imagine a world without DOJ BL on tap! I play it at least 1 credit a week to keep sane.. and for running power through the battery to keep it alive longer. If you ever catch me selling it.. I must REALLY need money for an emergency!

[djvinc]

I don't know anything about the differences sadly

[Monstermug]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have a working DOJ black label pcb/kit that is still running on suicide battery? Not that I expect everyone is actually reading this post but I'm just trying to establish how many are still alive and kicking

I do.
I have a handwritten EPROM, which turned out to be an official new revision of DDP DOJ BL. (extra dot in the version name).
I dumped it and had it donated to the Mame team.

Mine has the extra dot but has original label. I'm confused.

[el chuddo]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have a working DOJ black label pcb/kit that is still running on suicide battery? Not that I expect everyone is actually reading this post but I'm just trying to establish how many are still alive and kicking

I do.
I have a handwritten EPROM, which turned out to be an official new revision of DDP DOJ BL. (extra dot in the version name).
I dumped it and had it donated to the Mame team.

Mine has the extra dot but has original label. I'm confused.

Yes, this is now getting deeper..
I'm gonna go out on a limb here with another speculation..
Hear me out........
You have a first run pcb that made it back to Cave for a battery change once..
When Cave did that, they hooked your rom up with the newest version as a courtesy.

3 questions:
Did it just get sent in for a new battery or had it suicided?
Did you ever get a pic of the copyright screen before the 1st battery change.
Can you be kind enough to tell us your process to successfully change a DOJ BL battery?

It would be really cool to learn that the security check that can suicide the battery was left out on the later "extra dot" version.

[djvinc]

An answer to the last sentence : The extra dot version does suicide : mine did. The nvram content is the same as the non dot version since rtw could revive it the same way.

[monouchi]

I like this thread, interesting information.
Well done all.

[Monstermug]

Yes, this is now getting deeper..
I'm gonna go out on a limb here with another speculation..
Hear me out........
You have a first run pcb that made it back to Cave for a battery change once..
When Cave did that, they hooked your rom up with the newest version as a courtesy.

3 questions:
Did it just get sent in for a new battery or had it suicided?
Did you ever get a pic of the copyright screen before the 1st battery change.
Can you be kind enough to tell us your process to successfully change a DOJ BL battery?

It would be really cool to learn that the security check that can suicide the battery was left out on the later "extra dot" version.

Iirc it had suicided and was sent to cave back in 2008 ish. They changed the battery and added another seal on top of the existing seal. I only noticed the extra dot by reading this post. I don't have a screenshot before unfortunately.

I changed the battery back in Feb 2010 and then again Feb 13. I did it by removing the PCB from the metal enclosure, plugging it in to my E2 and powering it up. Wedge two heavy glass vases between the pcb like a clamp and using my Metcal desoldering station, removed and installed the new battery while still powered on.

I would love to know if the extra dot don't suicide but I rather kill myself first than remove the battery or flick that massive red "kill me" switch.

Your speculation seems to make sense.

[djvinc]

I would love to know if the extra dot don't suicide but I rather kill myself first than remove the battery or flick that massive red "kill me" switch.

Sorry to write this again but it's important : both the first and extra-dot versions commit suicide. It's a common trait in the family.

[el chuddo]

Thank you Monstermug and djvinc for answering those questions!

[arcade-stg]

Mine has the extra dot but has original label. I'm confused.

You have a first run pcb that made it back to Cave for a battery change once..
When Cave did that, they hooked your rom up with the newest version as a courtesy.

In order to upgrade these rom, someone must remove the sticker to erase it before reprograming, right?

In that case:

- cave removed the sticker of Monstermug's DOJ BL
- cave erased and reprogramed Monstermug's rom
- cave used a non-handwritten sticker as Monstermug's pictures show instead of the handwritten sticker used in other DOJ.

We also have to take into account that cave has no need to modify the re original rom to do the revival.

[el chuddo]

Mine has the extra dot but has original label. I'm confused.

You have a first run pcb that made it back to Cave for a battery change once..
When Cave did that, they hooked your rom up with the newest version as a courtesy.

In order to upgrade these rom, someone must remove the sticker to erase it before reprograming, right?

In that case:

- cave removed the sticker of Monstermug's DOJ BL
- cave erased and reprogramed Monstermug's rom
- cave used a non-handwritten sticker as Monstermug's pictures show instead of the handwritten sticker used in other DOJ.

We also have to take into account that cave has no need to modify the re original rom to do the revival.

Wow, I love how my speculation is quoted by you like I gave an official answer now.
I was under the impression that roms could be written while leaving original stickers intact, and that is why so many korean boards are sold as JP version on Ebay, because they were burned that way. I figured Cave knows that these original stickers are important to people. I have seen someone erase and burn a rom, but didn't watch for those details at the time, and have never done it, myself.

Can you please post some info to help out here, or is it just fun to discredit people and look for a reason to call things "conversions" or "non-original"? Go find a war-room on some other forum, if that's the case. A lot of people here want to know the real answers.. Including me. Thank! You

[brokenhalo]

Not really adding anything, but fwiw the xbox 360 port of doj bl uses the "extra dot" version. Noticed it while playing just now.

[Monstermug]

I thought the security key was embedded in some other chip other than the one with the sticker on it. Removing the battery causes this key to be wiped therefore rendering the program that is on the labeled chip to be unreadable. I might just be wildly wrong though.

[Casey120]

The one with the sticker is the eeprom.
I thought that an original BL has the key stored in ram which is continuously powered by the battery, battery dead is ram wiped and key gone .

[djvinc]

That's it.
Just it's an eprom, not an 'eeprom'.
It cannot be reprogrammed without removing the label, exposing it to UV light through the window under the label, and then reprogram it.

[jasoncslaughter]

I just wanted to say I'm really enjoying this thread.

[rtw]

Just to clear up some confusion here:

. It's not an EEPROM it's an EPROM, no 27C160 EEPROM equivalent exists in a DIL/DIP package.
. You do not need to erase or modify the EPROM to resurrect a DOJ BL.
. To resurrect you need to remove the original EPROM, insert RESURRECTION ROM, power on, power off, insert original EPROM

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=16402

[Skykid]

Just to clear up some confusion here:

. It's not an EEPROM it's an EPROM, no 27C160 EEPROM equivalent exists in a DIL/DIP package.
. You do not need to erase or modify the EPROM to resurrect a DOJ BL.
. To resurrect you need to remove the original EPROM, insert RESURRECTION ROM, power on, power off, insert original EPROM

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=16402

This is my current setup.