Cave PCBs: Black label production numbers

[geekmiki]

Hi,

I've been wondering for a while if the common belief that only 150 Futari BL PCBs and 200 Ibara Kuro PCBs were produced is accurate...
All the western references online mention those numbers, but if I try to do the math it just doesn't add up.

If I take the example of Futari BL:
-While I was in Japan, I ran into this game quite often in game centers. Not everywhere, but it wasn't too difficult to find a game center that had a cab with Futari BL. This was only in Tokyo and maybe I am completely wrong but I must have seen 10 or more. Add all the game centers that I didn't visit, that probably have it, multiply it by all other major cities in the country and you're probably way over 100.
-Collectors: by reading this and other arcade related forums, there seem to be quite a few Futari BLs owned by collectors. Not in masses, but again not as rare as we might think.
-Online sellers: this week there were 3 Futari BLs available for sale (Tops, STV, Arcade.am)

So where did this production numbers come from? The initial production might have been 150, but couldn't there have been some conversions made by Cave themselves?

[monouchi]

Interesting topic.
On a swedish arcade forum we have atleast 3 Futari BL boards.

Also, some boxes had the sticker and some didnt. Was it the re-print that didnt have the sticker? Was the initial print 150 and then came the re-print?

[arcade-stg]

Dodonpachi DOJ Black Label 100 copies taking into account http://www.world-of-arcades.net

It seems that Ibara Kuro got 3 prints.

I have to comment on this paragraph added to Arcadeshock.com's description of their Ibara BL kits, which can be found here: http://www.arcadeshock.com/items/cave-c ... detail.htm:

"The kit(s) we're offering are 100% original and came from the initial run. As you can see from the pic, the Ibara Black Label sticker on the box signifies it's official title. For those interested in some Cave facts, some have rumored that a second run was produced without the Black Label sticker on the box, but we have confirmed that this is not true. Without the sticker, the box is NOT an original Black Label box and was pieced together using another generic Cave/AMI box to form the kit."

Sorry, that's complete BS and totally not true. Fact: there absolutely was a second printing without the sticker on the box. Two trustworthy PCB distributors in Japan confirmed this to me when they were selling them in late 2006. Fact: after this Cave was making Ibara BL kits "to order" for about $1500 (again, this was relayed to me by a trusted Japanese PCB distributor), until a third "proper" print was done a few months ago. Fact: the kits Arcadeshock were selling recently with the poster did NOT come from the "initial run". They were from the third printing, as the poster was ONLY included in this third printing which occurred this year.

They also lead people to believe only 100 of these Ibara BL kits were ever made (actually they outright state "this is the case", though curiously they still also say the PCBs they are selling are from the "initial run"--why say "initial" unless there was more than one printing? Doesn't make sense), and the ones they are selling are from that print run. Having personally owned an Ibara BL PCB with a serial number of 169 (from the initial print run), compounded with the proof I have of Cave making more than one print of this (and actually making them "to order" for awhile!) I'm quite confident this is untrue.

In summation, don't believe the lies. Arcadeshock needs to stop posting the bullshit as a means of jacking up their prices.

[geekmiki]

Interesting post arcade-stg, which kind of confirms what I think... The initial production might have been limited, but 2nd and 3rd prints were made to cover the demand. This is probably also true for Futari BL.

I don't know who started the rumor about the 150 units, but it has spread all over: ArcadeOtaku's Wiki, Wikipedia, CaveDB and many other western shmup related sources.

[el chuddo]

Great Topic! Let's get these "western" rumors cleared up.

Don't forget DFK BL production #'s.. What dems is?

Edit: added to much info in orig. post for this topic.

[Dave_K.]

I don't know who started the rumor about the 150 units, but it has spread all over: ArcadeOtaku's Wiki, Wikipedia, CaveDB and many other western shmup related sources.

So you are surprised there is collector hype? Actually I recall this all started from old IKD interview where he stated why they released the first BL (DOJ) as a limited release for hardcore players. Demand had obviously taken over since then and reprints have been plenty, but some collectors still hold onto this fantasy that there is an extreme limited quantity.

[Skykid]

Wow, is that a confirmed fact, DOJ BL was limited to 100 produced?

So few?

[geekmiki]

So you are surprised there is collector hype? Actually I recall this all started from old IKD interview where he stated why they released the first BL (DOJ) as a limited release for hardcore players. Demand had obviously taken over since then and reprints have been plenty, but some collectors still hold onto this fantasy that there is an extreme limited quantity.

Absolutely not suprised... As I mentioned in my initial post, I'm just trying to get a figure closer to reality than the one that has been spread among western shmup players/collectors for the past years.

[geekmiki]

Edit: added to much info in orig. post for this topic.

It was actually quite interesting the findings you posted... You should post them again!

[el chuddo]

Edit: added to much info in orig. post for this topic.

It was actually quite interesting the findings you posted... You should post them again!

OK.. posted the SH3 info in a new thread: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50042 , dedicated to that hardware and print info. It goes beyond Black label's and I will add more to it as I get time.

I did want to mention that outside of SH3 Black Label production #'s, the Dodonpachi Daioujou Black Label is an interesting case.
I have also read about the alleged 100 printed boards when released. One must also consider that some of this initial print, have by now failed in one way or another. Most of them from battery suicide!

The interesting thing is, Cave repairs these dead or dying Black Label DOJ's and changes the suicide battery as recently as last year. This I know, and they may be continuing to do so as long as they are in business. Although that is not too interesting in itself.. the fact is: Cave can make a reg. DOJ into a BL with a new Eeprom and battery. They will also put a CAVE sticker on the blue case to seal it and assure evreryone of it's official status. While this seems bummer to official Black Label pcb owners, the service to have such a thing done is not easy or cheap. You need to have a distributor middleman, enough JPY for the service, and the added time & money for shipping it through the 3 parties back and forth. Probably close to the difference in cost of a Reg. DOJ and BL DOJ.

One can only hope that Cave has a rough idea of the # of DOJ BL's going out of service, before releasing too many into the wild and making something rare into something more common. It was almost 12 years ago, so I'm sure the "care factor" has plummeted.
It is nice to know that they support hardware that is designed to "kill itself" if not maintained. After 12 years one could argue that they really don't need to.

[brokenhalo]

the fact is: Cave can make a reg. DOJ into a BL with a new Eeprom and battery. They will also put a CAVE sticker on the blue case to seal it and assure evreryone of it's official status.

theoretically, of course they could. but is there proof they have actually done this?

[el chuddo]

the fact is: Cave can make a reg. DOJ into a BL with a new Eeprom and battery. They will also put a CAVE sticker on the blue case to seal it and assure evreryone of it's official status.

theoretically, of course they could. but is there proof they have actually done this?

Well, I only have a little experience on this because I only have 1 of this board to compare.. But, I can tell you that I did in fact open my sealed DOJ BL case and the sticker on the EEPROM is not the same as the sticker on the initial print DOJ BL's that I have seen in photos online. Mine is hand written instead of printed. Mine is also from a reputable pcb shop in Japan that is a known middleman for Cave and the battery was changed by Cave about a year ago, according to them.
Another Japanese pcb shop had about 3 or more of this BL pcb available just last year with the same seal and orange battery. They also stated that it was repaired by cave and battery changed. Of course I could not see the EEPROM stickers on those, but only Cave can know for sure if these were originally released as reg. or BL's, since nothing about the 2 boards differ, and the sequence of 'cave ####' stickers doesn't seem to designate ver.

[geekmiki]

theoretically, of course they could. but is there proof they have actually done this?

We know it has been done for SH3 boards, so why wouldn't they have done it on some PGM boards... Of course there's no proof, but I guess it sounds possible.

[Monstermug]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have a working DOJ black label pcb/kit that is still running on suicide battery? Not that I expect everyone is actually reading this post but I'm just trying to establish how many are still alive and kicking

[el chuddo]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have a working DOJ black label pcb/kit that is still running on suicide battery? Not that I expect everyone is actually reading this post but I'm just trying to establish how many are still alive and kicking

To be clear in reference to my own posts, I want to add that Cave does not change the way the hardware works in this service. It will still suicide just as the 1st run BL DOJ pcb will. The hardware is just as official as the 1st run, considering that those were just abundant reg. DOJ's to begin with. The only difference is the sticker on the EEPROM. To a super collector, this is paramount.. But a collector like that usually doesn't crack that seal to know what they have. To someone interested in running official code that's ready to kill itself, it's 'good enough' to have it either way. I was pointing this info out more as a way to show how unclear production #'s are. These games do/did get reprinted, so maybe now people will start referring to "1st print" like books, when engaged in high level collecting. I did have a chance to get a sealed DOJ BL pcb with the orig battery last year, but was unwilling to risk that old battery killing my board for a sticker that may or may not be on that EEPROM.

[djvinc]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have a working DOJ black label pcb/kit that is still running on suicide battery? Not that I expect everyone is actually reading this post but I'm just trying to establish how many are still alive and kicking

I do.
I have a handwritten EPROM, which turned out to be an official new revision of DDP DOJ BL. (extra dot in the version name).
I dumped it and had it donated to the Mame team.

[arcade-stg]

The artset of DOJ BL was never reprinted. Maybe that helps to spot a conversion.

[el chuddo]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have a working DOJ black label pcb/kit that is still running on suicide battery? Not that I expect everyone is actually reading this post but I'm just trying to establish how many are still alive and kicking

I do.
I have a handwritten EPROM, which turned out to be an official new revision of DDP DOJ BL. (extra dot in the version name).
I dumped it and had it donated to the Mame team.

Thanks for posting this! Very helpful. Can you specify when you got it and if it was sealed. I assumed the handwritten rom was only on the newly serviced pcbs. I am still completely speculating on whether any of these recently serviced pcbs were ever white labels.. It just fits cave's M.O. and is entirely possible to execute and conceal at will.

@ arcade-stg..As far as artsets and conversions. It is not really a conversion if ALL BL DOJ's are from white labels to begin with. If Cave does it and it's their code, parts, and sticker seal, they are not conversions.. Just something along the lines of a new print (and/or revision as stated above) like the sh3 stuff. The non suiciding roms that get made by anyone other than Cave are safe to call conversions. If you want to use that word loosely, I'm afraid all DOJ's are white label conversions.
Original art doesn't sort out anything considering things get split up and frankenkits get made. I had a BL marquee a year before the pcb and heard of the big POPs being available by themselves in Tokyo within the last 2 years. The movestrip is not even BL specific. Only Cave knows...

[arcade-stg]

I was thinking in something like these:

A) as a service, cave took as input doj vanilla and turn them into doj bl with handwritten sticker. In this case there is no bl artset.

B) cave took as input dead doj bl and they resurrected them and also updated to handwritten revision? In this case the artset remains from the input bl.

C) cave released a first print with the non-handwritten sticker and then they released a second print with handwritten sticker. Both should have bl artset. And the mystery is how many copies were produced?

[ACSeraph]

-While I was in Japan, I ran into this game quite often in game centers. Not everywhere, but it wasn't too difficult to find a game center that had a cab with Futari BL. This was only in Tokyo and maybe I am completely wrong but I must have seen 10 or more. Add all the game centers that I didn't visit, that probably have it, multiply it by all other major cities in the country and you're probably way over 100.

I can't say anything about the production numbers, but while BL is pretty easy to come by in Tokyo, it definitely isn't in other areas of Japan. I've been to every arcade in my prefecture and quite a bit of the ones in greater Tohoku and I've never once encountered a Futari BL, DOJ BL, or a Kuro. Finding cave games at all is pretty rare actually. The ones I've seen in Tohoku are: DFK, Mushi, DOJ WL, DS MBL, Progear, and... that's it. Saddest part is all of them have been gotten rid of except for Progear

So it's possible that even though it's common in very very large cities the extreme rarity of it elsewhere means the print run was indeed quite low. But my guess is that the demand is also low, so maybe those two factors balance out a bit.

[brokenhalo]

theoretically, of course they could. but is there proof they have actually done this?

We know it has been done for SH3 boards, so why wouldn't they have done it on some PGM boards... Of course there's no proof, but I guess it sounds possible.

We know that they've taken unsold stock and reprogrammed boards to be sold as part of brand new kits. What el chuddo was saying was that any joe could send their doj wl in to cave, pay a nominal fee, and get a reprogrammed doj bl back. To my knowledge cave doesn't offer any such service. If they did people would be buying up the cheaper cave boards and having them converted to the rarer boards.

[brentsg]

I was thinking in something like these:

A) as a service, cave took as input doj vanilla and turn them into doj bl with handwritten sticker. In this case there is no bl artset.

I think this is incredibly unlikely. As someone that's had a blatant Cave bug fixed on one of their boards, they charged far more than a nominal fee just to do that.. Note that this was for a board that was purchased from Cave directly.

[el chuddo]

theoretically, of course they could. but is there proof they have actually done this?

We know it has been done for SH3 boards, so why wouldn't they have done it on some PGM boards... Of course there's no proof, but I guess it sounds possible.

We know that they've taken unsold stock and reprogrammed boards to be sold as part of brand new kits. What el chuddo was saying was that any joe could send their doj wl in to cave, pay a nominal fee, and get a reprogrammed doj bl back. To my knowledge cave doesn't offer any such service. If they did people would be buying up the cheaper cave boards and having them converted to the rarer boards.

i'm sorry I worded this that way.. Not so much "any joe". To clarify, I was stating more of a worst case scenario (in terms of understanding production #'s) that would be very private and potentially uncommon.. more so extended to a distributor than an individual.. while also stating that IF this were to happen, the fees, time, and shipping involved would make it a potentially less common practice, eliminating 'floods' of reprogrammed BL pcbs into the wild. Also suggesting that the repair service from Cave is close to the difference in price of a reg. DOJ (35,000JPY) to the BL (60,000JPY) in today's market.
Really, if these reg. DOJ's are made into BL's by Cave with official code, seal, new battery, and suicide potential.. then they are legit.. they just were not part of that "limited" 1st run. While Cave no longer needs to boast this limited access and desirability from 12 years ago, for them to make sure that BL DOJ's are running and available for the 'repair fee' more than a White label is actually pretty cool. The alternative is far more grim and to have the company alive and maintaining old hardware rules.
As a side note: Reg. DOJ's supposedly have a high fail rate, and for a distributor (with money already invested in the pcb) to send those in for repair would be cost prohibitive, unless the costs could be recouped through a version change during the repair.
I also found it interesting that during the time I got mine last year, there were 5 available and 4 of those were with new batteries in sealed cases from Cave. 2 of which were listed as "repaired by Cave". To top off my speculation, when I opened mine up, I find a hand written EEprom. Having never seen or heard of any other than the printed EEprom stickers, I guessed it is possible with the SH3 track record.. Where individuals could have certain games "made to order" directly from Cave or through a middleman shortly after.
Again, I love these games as much as the rest of you, and only wish to understand more as well. I don't look to defame Cave at all. If anything, new evidence that shows high production, weakens the value of my games as well. I tend to speculate on this subject, so again, I apologize if it seems crazy or awful.. Just some "shmups chat" like the board says.

[Skykid]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have a working DOJ black label pcb/kit that is still running on suicide battery? Not that I expect everyone is actually reading this post but I'm just trying to establish how many are still alive and kicking

I have an original DOJ BL bought from Japan years ago, hence my surprise at production numbers.

However I'm very wary of suicide battery leakage, so to safeguard it from death, I exchanged the rom for one that skips the security check and removed the battery.

That way restoring it is as simple as replacing the original rom and battery - although I would only ever do that in the result of a sale (unlikely) considering the risk.

[Dave_K.]

However I'm very wary of suicide battery leakage, so to safeguard it from death, I exchanged the rom for one that skips the security check and removed the battery.

That way restoring it is as simple as replacing the original rom and battery - although I would only ever do that in the result of a sale (unlikely) considering the risk.

Actually by removing the battery to run the hacked rom, you suicided your original BL! Restoring back to original BL at this point is more difficult that you stated, as you'll also need to have the keys written to NVRAM, and Cave doesn't do this service anymore. Thankfully RTW does.

[Skykid]

However I'm very wary of suicide battery leakage, so to safeguard it from death, I exchanged the rom for one that skips the security check and removed the battery.

That way restoring it is as simple as replacing the original rom and battery - although I would only ever do that in the result of a sale (unlikely) considering the risk.

Actually by removing the battery to run the hacked rom, you suicided your original BL! Restoring back to original BL at this point is more difficult that you stated, as you'll also need to have the keys written to NVRAM, and Cave doesn't do this service anymore. Thankfully RTW does.

Sorry, I explained it incorrectly. My memory of the process is hazy, as it was years ago. I already have the keys written to NVRAM. I had someone I know, name undisclosed, make me a special setup a long time before the (now infamous) bootleg BL's surfaced, purely to protect the board in the event of a battery suicide (I don't have access to my BL for an extended period, and I really can't risk acid leakage while it's in storage!)
Incidentally, it was one of the people responsible for discovering the NVRAM hack that lead to all the WL conversions.

I won't need to send it to RTW to be restored.

[djvinc]

Here is what I know about mine :

I got it a few years back as an original Black Label, without arts (only a nice copy of it).
The previous owner had some issues with the board, he sent it to Japan and the PCB got into Cave's hands.
It returned with a handwritten labeled EPROM on it (new revision).

What I don't know :
- if the board was originally emitted with some arts (i.e. is it a first run with lost arts, or a second run with no arts at the beginning ?)
- if the board was a white label at the origin (at least it was fixed by Cave into a new revision of the black label, so if the PCB was originally a white label, it must have been officially converted by Cave and sold as such in the first place)
- if the original revision was handwritten or not before the repair.
- if all handwritten EPROM contain the latest rev.

It doesn't answer all questions, but it tells something about how I got an official suicidable new revision (probably the latest, and maybe ultra-rare) of the Black Label
And yes, mnie did suicide once, and I got the help of rtw. That's when we noticed this new version was unknown to the Mame team, rtw, nor me.

[Casey120]

Makes me wonder about the " normal " versions .
I haven't got a clue what a avarage PCB print run was for lets say Mushihimesama or Doj vanilla ?
Couple of thousand ??

[arcade-stg]

I am wondering if the handwritten version is actually official or not. I mean, there are always middle men involved.

The guys how perform conversions of DOJ vanilla to DOK bl can modify the boot screen. Therefor the additional point may be just a signal to spot the conversion without disturbing that much the owner.

For instance, the original boot screen:


The modified boot screen of the conversion rom that is available on internet.


As I said before, the never reprinted part of the artwork helps specially when handwritten stickers are involved.

[Skykid]

Serial numbers might help?

The dot placement on the boot screen was designed by the conversion creators to help identify which boards are orginal.