XRGB-mini Framemeister

[HAR65]

The first posting of new members on the board doesn't push the thread, so your first posting probably didn't get the proper attention. Somebody with a N64 running should be able to confirm or refute what you see.

Thank you very much , i just want to know, if this is "normal", a wrong setting, or a malfunctioning Framemeister.

[Fudoh]

I would certainly say that it's not normal. I mean, you saw my Bangaioh snapshots (posted the link on man!ac recently when you asked there) and I definitely got no vertical ringing there. So, the more interesting question is, is it caused by the game ? Or the N64 revision you use ? http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg

[blizzz]

I would test the N64 if I had my Framemeister back. 6 weeks after I received my broken Framemeister and I still don't have an ETA for a replacement unit.

I had hoped for a bit more service from Solaris...

[HAR65]

I would certainly say that it's not normal. I mean, you saw my Bangaioh snapshots (posted the link on man!ac recently when you asked there) and I definitely got no vertical ringing there. So, the more interesting question is, is it caused by the game ? Or the N64 revision you use ? http://pms.hazard-city.de/n64mini.jpg

I dont think, it is a games Problem, cause this behaviour occurs in every game ive tested so far (appr. 10 games) on different N64-consoles with different cables.

I fear, that the Problem is the framemeister itself. This would be really bad, i dont think, i can convince the seller, that the framemeister-unit doesnt work correct.

[Fudoh]

I fear, that the Problem is the framemeister itself.

I don't think so. Easy reason: I get the same artefacts HORIZONTALLY when using H_SCALER 5 and and I can only counter them so far by going to up 10 for this setting. I've checked with other users (for example Konsolkongen) and they do not get this effect, so I would blame my particular N64 unit.

But just to create a baseline with other users here, you get the same effect with a RGB connection, right ? I think I don't have s-video cables around for my N64 and most other Mini users are likely using RGB as well.

[BuckoA51]

syncblaster-black-box-with-ps2 by videogameperfection, on Flickr

Syncblaster Black Box review is up - http://www.videogameperfection.com/2014 ... ck-review/

TL:DR version - Works pretty well.

[HAR65]

I fear, that the Problem is the framemeister itself.

I don't think so. Easy reason: I get the same artefacts HORIZONTALLY when using H_SCALER 5 and and I can only counter them so far by going to up 10 for this setting. I've checked with other users (for example Konsolkongen) and they do not get this effect, so I would blame my particular N64 unit.

But just to create a baseline with other users here, you get the same effect with a RGB connection, right ? I think I don't have s-video cables around for my N64 and most other Mini users are likely using RGB as well.

Okay, thx for the Information. And yes, ive got the same effect with an RGB-Connection. NTSC and PAL btw. The strange border-behaviour, i have shown on my screenshots, i would call "horizontally" btw. or am i wrong?

[Fudoh]

small question on the black box: how do you technically feed RGBHV ? Your review says it can be done, but with scart only providing a single sync pin, I wonder how it's done on this box. Certainly a fair question, since the Dreamcast is certainly what comes to mind ríght after the PS2.

[Fudoh]

@HAR65: no, yours is vertically. You get vertical ringing. Look at the "R". Your get halos on top and bottom, while the left vertical edge looks ok. Now compare that to my Bangaioh shots. First row on the right: same effect, but horizontally.

[BuckoA51]

small question on the black box: how do you technically feed RGBHV ?

I don't think you can input RGBHV you can only output it. Keene sell a cable for this but I don't think it works on the input.

[Fudoh]

ok, i see. So still not the ultimate "anything in, anything out" converter one would hope for. If you ask me, a Sync Strike + an Extron interface would at least be the more versatile option then.

[BuckoA51]

Bulkier and harder to cable up though.

Quick edit - Just dug out my old HTPC SCART to VGA cable that used to work on our old HTPC Radeon+Powerstrip and CRT combo. No dice with the Dreamcast and the black box though, black box lights up and says there's a signal but no picture on the Mini or XRGB3.

[HAR65]

@HAR65: no, yours is vertically. You get vertical ringing. Look at the "R". Your get halos on top and bottom, while the left vertical edge looks ok. Now compare that to my Bangaioh shots. First row on the right: same effect, but horizontally.

I see (like Ryu would say ^^), thx for clearing this. So this means, only vertical scaling could affect this. But only Vscale6 or 7 create this sharp Picture. But both create this Halos. This means, there is no solution for this.
Upscaling is a more complicated Thing than i thought.

[Fudoh]

This means, there is no solution for this.

maybe not for you right now, but I was using H_SCALER 6 for all my tests as well, so *MY* N64 is working on *MY* Mini. Somebody else should try though, especially with one of the two titles you've been using. If you feel like investing a few EUR (for postage), you're welcome to send me one of your N64 units to have a testrun on my Mini. Feel free to PM me.

[austin532]

syncblaster-black-box-with-ps2 by videogameperfection, on Flickr

Syncblaster Black Box review is up - http://www.videogameperfection.com/2014 ... ck-review/

TL:DR version - Works pretty well.

1. Do you still get banding when using playing a 480i game without converting it to 480p using GSM?

2. There doesn't seem to be any banding with GrimGrimoire. Is this true?

3. Have you tried a game that supports 480p to see if that helps? Both GrimGrimoire and Gradius V are 480i games.

4. What other systems would this work with besides the PS2?

[CT Chibo]

I seem to be having an issue with my framemeister that I can't get to the bottom of. So a while ago it worked 100%, since then I upgraded the firmware and it still worked, but I haven't done all the same stuff. Atm I'm trying to upscale an N64 over Svideo. It outputs HDMI and works fine on my TV. I can output it into my Avermedia Game Broadcaster HD and my Elgato Game Capture HD. It won't input into either Black Magic Intensity Shuttle that I own (USB3 and Tbolt) and it won't ouput into my HDMI splitter. These are things that work fine with other devices, and my RGB Mini used to work with. I can plug it into a monitor, it works, plug it into a splitter that goes to the monitor - doesn't work anymore. Is there some sort of new setting on the Framemeister about detecting HDMI that it isn't picking up anymore? What could I be missing?

Anything on this by chance? I'm completely confused at why my Framemeister works when plugged directly into a monitor or Avermedia GameBroadcaster HD, but doesn't work when plugged into a HDMI Splitter (that splits to the Monitor or Avermedia) or when plugged into my BlackMagic Intensity Shuttle. It previously worked on both the splitter and BMI with no problems, unsure what kind of settings change or firmware upgrade could have done. The BMI and Splitter do work otherwise.

[Joelepain]

Could you test the YPbPr output on the Wii U for Wii games at 720p or 1080i and see if you get Full Range?

So I tried to do some tests. But when you set the WiiU to output component, whatever resolution is choosen, in wii mode it will output 576i (I have an European WiiU so I don't know what happens for NTSC consoles). Moreover, I wanted to test with this site http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php but I didn't find the wii internet browser in the shopping channel.

Then I tried to do some tests in WiiU mode and I made some huge discoveries about the framemeister (at least huge for me, maybe this has already been treated somewhere in one the 200 pages) : the black levels of the framemeister is a complete mess.
I set the WiiU output to component in 720p and I launch the WiiU mode internet browser on this site http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php

First I tried WiiU => denon avr1910 YUV input (scaler off so in theory it shouldn't touch the video) => hdmi input of my monitor : the backgound is black as it should be, and I can see the squares of the first two rows. So that means the black levels of the WiiU component are correct, the avr1910 treats it well and outputs either YPbPr (we consider there is no different "range" as Fudoh said) OR RGB full range (because that's what my monitor can display well, but I can't tell because there is no input infomation in the menu).

Then I tried WiiU => framemeister YUV input => hdmi input of my monitor : the backgound is black as it should be, but the squares of the first two rows are all black. So that means the framemeister is crushing the blacks level of its YUV input, and the is no way to corrects this.

Then I wanted to see what happens with the framemeister hdmi input so I tried WiiU => denon avr1910 YUV input => framemeister hdmi 1 input => hdmi input of my monitor : this is where everything gets completely messy. You get different results completely randomly. Sometimes you get the correct black levels. Sometimes you get crushed blacks. Sometimes you get washed out black.
Changing the color output of the framemeister between RGB or Auto, or changing HDMI_Direct between on or off doesn't seem to change a thing.
If you select the rgb input of the framemeister then go back on the hdmi input, you get a different result. You select the yuv input of the framemeister then go back on the hdmi input and you have another result.
If you select the hdmi input you are already on (so technically nothing has changed, it just does an hdmi handshake), you get a different result.

Can someone check if you can reproduce these problems with another system? If yes, then it's a big problem to add to the already "not so short" list of problems of the framemeister.

[BuckoA51]

1. Do you still get banding when using playing a 480i game without converting it to 480p using GSM?

No

2. There doesn't seem to be any banding with GrimGrimoire. Is this true?

It's there on anything 480p but barely noticeable unless you really look for it. I had to super zoom in to show that illustration. Could absolutely be my PS2 at fault but I don't have another to test.

3. Have you tried a game that supports 480p to see if that helps? Both GrimGrimoire and Gradius V are 480i games.

Don't see why or how that would make a difference.

4. What other systems would this work with besides the PS2?

There aren't any other systems that output RGsB that I know of.

[Lawfer]

There aren't any other systems that output RGsB that I know of.

I asked Fudoh-sama the same question and he gave me the same answer (no other system beside the Playstation 2 output RGsB), so basically you want 480p RGB on Gamecube, Xbox etc.? You gonna need to rely on RGBHV and modding, problem is RGBHV is a computer (VGA) output and that doesnt bode well for you if you plan on playing 480p games (unless you can get your hands on one of these 640x480 4:3 Plasmas who do accept RGBHV inputs).

Could you test the YPbPr output on the Wii U for Wii games at 720p or 1080i and see if you get Full Range?

So I tried to do some tests.

So did you get full range through the YPbPr output of the Wii U for Wii games at 720p or 1080i?

[BuckoA51]

I asked Fudoh-sama the same question and he gave me the same answer (no other system beside the Playstation 2 output RGsB), so basically you want 480p RGB on Gamecube, Xbox etc.? You gonna need to rely on RGBHV and modding, problem is RGBHV is a computer (VGA) output and that doesnt bode well for you if you plan on playing 480p games (unless you can get your hands on one of these 640x480 4:3 Plasmas who do accept RGBHV inputs).

You can get VGA out from the Xbox via a VGA cable and a modified dash. Honestly though I struggled to see any difference when I tried it (there are some screenshots somewhere buried in the history of the forum). I also had some weird ghosting issues with it too.

Of course the difference may be more pronounced on the Mini with its generally poor component inputs.

[Lawfer]

I asked Fudoh-sama the same question and he gave me the same answer (no other system beside the Playstation 2 output RGsB), so basically you want 480p RGB on Gamecube, Xbox etc.? You gonna need to rely on RGBHV and modding, problem is RGBHV is a computer (VGA) output and that doesnt bode well for you if you plan on playing 480p games (unless you can get your hands on one of these 640x480 4:3 Plasmas who do accept RGBHV inputs).

You can get VGA out from the Xbox via a VGA cable and a modified dash. Honestly though I struggled to see any difference when I tried it (there are some screenshots somewhere buried in the history of the forum). I also had some weird ghosting issues with it too.

Of course the difference may be more pronounced on the Mini with its generally poor component inputs.

On what display did you get the output picture on?

[Fudoh]

If you stopped asking and just got the RGBHV to RGsB converter for your Ikegami in place already, you could start to appreciate RGBHV as well.

[Lawfer]

If you stopped asking and just got the RGBHV to RGsB converter for your Ikegami in place already, you could start to appreciate RGBHV as well.

RGBHV to RGsB converter? You talking about the Extron RGB for the Dreamcast setup? I didnt get it yet because I didnt get any Dreamcast games yet (I did get the official SEGA Dreamcast VGA Box months ago though), but now that you mention it, it can be used for other things such as converting Xbox RGBHV signal to RGsB to get 480p RGB, does the Xbox 360 VGA cable fit into the original Xbox? I was thinking of asking this question too, is there any difference in quality between RGsB (3 cables) and RGBS (4 cables)?

[austin532]

There aren't any other systems that output RGsB that I know of.

I asked Fudoh-sama the same question and he gave me the same answer (no other system beside the Playstation 2 output RGsB), so basically you want 480p RGB on Gamecube, Xbox etc.? You gonna need to rely on RGBHV and modding, problem is RGBHV is a computer (VGA) output and that doesnt bode well for you if you plan on playing 480p games (unless you can get your hands on one of these 640x480 4:3 Plasmas who do accept RGBHV inputs).

Yes, I would like to use RGB for the original XBOX rather than VGA. RGB can output 720 and 1080 correct? Do NTSC Xbox's even support RGB for that matter?

[Fudoh]

Out of the box: no. You need a firmware hack to enable RGB for 31khz and higher. And you need a custom cable. Not worth it imo. Using component with a transcoder (if you need RGB) is much easier.

[Joelepain]

So did you get full range through the YPbPr output of the Wii U for Wii games at 720p or 1080i?

As I said, when I set the WiiU output to component, and whatever resolution I choose in WiiU mode, when in Wii mode it outputs 576i (I suppose it's because I have a PAL console, and NTSC consoles will outputs 480i). So I can't test what you want.

[Lawfer]

So did you get full range through the YPbPr output of the Wii U for Wii games at 720p or 1080i?

As I said, when I set the WiiU output to component, and whatever resolution I choose in WiiU mode, when in Wii mode it outputs 576i (I suppose it's because I have a PAL console, and NTSC consoles will outputs 480i). So I can't test what you want.

Oh, sorry, I thought that the Wii U outputted anything with component cables, 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p?

[Joelepain]

Oh, sorry, I thought that the Wii U outputted anything with component cables, 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p?

Yes, but only in WiiU mode. In Wii mode you get only 576i. Maybe it's a bug of the pal consoles.

[Sixfortyfive]

Oh, sorry, I thought that the Wii U outputted anything with component cables, 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p?

With HDMI, the Wii U's backward compatibility mode definitely outputs at the same resolution that the system has been set to in the system menu, all the way up to 1080p.

I'm surprised to hear that it might not do the same via component.

[Joelepain]

With HDMI, the Wii U's backward compatibility mode definitely outputs at the same resolution that the system has been set to in the system menu, all the way up to 1080p.

I'm surprised to hear that it might not do the same via component.

Yes I was surprised too when I did the test.
But some time ago I found an article on the internet which was written soon after the release of the console, that said the upscaling of wii game didn't work the same between pal and ntsc console. I don't remember if they were speaking of the hdmi or component output. And I don't know if it's been updated since then.
So maybe it's just a problem of pal consoles.