Looking at the screen

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:50 pm

This issue lingered in my mind for quite some time, and now I`m trying to describe it.

How close do you actually sit to your screen when playing a shmup? Or more specifically, do you sit so close to the screen that you really have to look around the screen, while seing all the details during play - or do you sit back, seing the whole screen at once, and just generally stare at it?

I used to have a quite small flat screen monitor (my new one is surprisingly big, mostly because I bought it after having my old one for maybe 4 years) and sitting away from it maybe an arms lenght. The first time I sat down at an TATE arcade cabinet (which was actually the last time, that was in London once) I was surprised how close you sit to the screen, and how much my eyes moved around the screen.

Connected to this issue: Sometimes I just stare at the monitor, drifting into some "zone", recognizing general bullet movement quite easily and not specially focussing on my ship. Then, in tight parts, I focus on the ship (and trying to see the hitbox), while not being able to see incoming enemies or beginning bullet patterns.

I hope you get my point. I have the impression that those things vary between horis and verts - many people said they survived better in Progear if they rotated the controls and the screen to make it a vertical game.

Venom · Post by **Venom** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:23 pm

When I had my supergun, I always played on a 13" commodore. I liked to look down on the screen and sit rather close.

I think the general sense then zoom in for bullet mazes is normal. I don't like large screens myself, or playing using a stick for that matter.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:32 pm

15in TFT monitor for both console and PC/emulation gaming. The monitor is always at eye level and at arms length at least - any closer and I develop headaches. Depending on the game, I tend to quickly scan the screen for threats and incoming enemies, and then focus on a decent sized area around my ship (usually 2x ship height/width) so I can get a general idea of how to move. Complete focus on the ship is only necessary when making pinpoint accurate dodges.

Accurate movement is just as important as screen focus, I might add. Its no good being able to vary your visual focus for the situation if your movement is messy.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:25 pm

20" monitor for TV gaming, about 3-4 feet away.

Now for a poll on shmupper nearsightedness.

JJG · Post by **JJG** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:22 pm

32" tv, about 6-7 feet away.

Soldato J · Post by **Soldato J** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:38 pm

17" monitors for all gaming, one flipped one reg, about 2-3 feet away. Also, I prefer to play standing

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:13 pm

27 or 29" TV on my mame cabinet, *not* TATE'd. I'm about 2-3 feet from it.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:18 pm

Soldato J wrote:17" monitors for all gaming, one flipped one reg, about 2-3 feet away. Also, I prefer to play standing

From my experience, the more upright you work the longer you stay concentrated. So playing while standing is a nice twist that I have to try next time. I guess the body doesn`t go into sleep mode that fast - for instance, if you lie down, the body thinks "now its time for a nap", but when you are standing, your mind is more alert.

I once read about people lying on their side when they play games in tate mode but can`t turn their TV to the side. Did somebody actually do that? I tried that once and find it highly irritating.

Partly my question stems from my new monitor that is larger than my old one but I can`t tate it - first because its heaviness and shape, and second because the angles you look at it in tate makes it unplayable (the screen display looks different the farer I go down with my head, so if I tate the screen, one eye has a brighter image than the other, which is irritating). That way, I play mame in the "letterbox" mode, with black borders left and right. Especially in games like Gunbird 2 I have a easier time surviving - it gets easier to "read" the patterns if I have a smaller display area and have a better overview.

I guess the "zoom", concentrating on a small area only applied for games like Imperishable Night for me - but when I focus on one part I miss the general movement of the patters. Dodging bullet per bullet won`t get me far if I fail to read the patterns in their completeness.

One thing I always wondered about is why Cave went from two colors for bullets (DDP, Ketsui) or more (Dangun, Esprade) to a single color like in Mushi oder EspGaluda. Doesn`t that make the "reading" of the patterns harder? Or doesn`t color matter so much, that its more in the general movement of the bullets? (I think quite a lot about such design decisions, as you can tell

)

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:34 pm

FrederikJurk wrote:One thing I always wondered about is why Cave went from two colors for bullets (DDP, Ketsui) or more (Dangun, Esprade) to a single color like in Mushi oder EspGaluda. Doesn`t that make the "reading" of the patterns harder? Or doesn`t color matter so much, that its more in the general movement of the bullets?

Well, in Galuda's case they probably kept the bullets to a single color at a time to indicate what "state" they're in (blue=normal, pink=slow, red=fast)...as for Mushi and so forth, just for style, I guess. As for me, whether the bullets are one color or several doesn't affect visibility in my case, as long as they're easy to spot against the background I'm not going to complain.

Andi · Post by **Andi** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:50 pm

Soldato J wrote:17" monitors for all gaming, one flipped one reg, about 2-3 feet away. Also, I prefer to play standing

I sometimes play standing. If I play sitting, I shift my fight around on the floor like I'm trying to walk around.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:59 pm

Icarus wrote:15in TFT monitor for both console and PC/emulation gaming. The monitor is always at eye level and at arms length at least - any closer and I develop headaches. Depending on the game, I tend to quickly scan the screen for threats and incoming enemies, and then focus on a decent sized area around my ship (usually 2x ship height/width) so I can get a general idea of how to move. Complete focus on the ship is only necessary when making pinpoint accurate dodges.

Accurate movement is just as important as screen focus, I might add. Its no good being able to vary your visual focus for the situation if your movement is messy.

My PC setup is pretty much like that. (13'' screen though.) I play maybe a little less than arm-length from the screen, unless I get frusterated, then I lose all of my concentration and move in to about 6 inches away from the screen.

My Console setup changes depending wether i'm playing in the living room or in my bedroom.

either:
40'' Widescreen and I play sitting on the couch with good posture (to stay alert) about 7 ft away.

or

An old, shitty, 16'' Magnavox. I play about 7 or 8 feet away from that.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:03 pm

Spare 15in LCD monitor that I rotate when I play shooters, about 2 feet away.

I also rotate it for doujinshi sometimes

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:11 pm

Here is a similar thread that no doubt ruffled some feathers.

landshark · Post by **landshark** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:07 am

FrederikJurk wrote: I once read about people lying on their side when they play games in tate mode but can`t turn their TV to the side. Did somebody actually do that? I tried that once and find it highly irritating.

I find it impossible to play like that because my brain still interprets real-up as up and I press that button.

I play shmups in particular alot better standing - not sure why.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:58 am

Its Deja-Vu all over again:
Does a bigger screen size make shmups easier or harder?
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=5093

My best attempt at some intelligent posting:
Motion Induced Blindness
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=8791

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:10 am

"Does a bigger screen size make shmups easier or harder" is the question I wanted to ask in the first place. GaijinPunchs thread touches this issue, too. I should have done some research before!

"The games are design for that" get mentioned over and over. The same argument could be valid for the stick vs pad discussion (don`t panic, I won`t start that discussion again) - but what about console shmups? Or a console port of an arcade shmups? "This game is meant to be played with a competition pro joystick. This game is meant to be played with hammering the space key." Sure, DoDonpachi is not meant to be played on a PDA, but other than that, it`s a matter of what you`re used to.

I might that I wasn`t even referring to small TVs but to a small monitor. I have a TV that is a bit smaller than my monitor, but boy, I can`t even read my scores on that thing (I just plugged my scart cable in that thing, playing shmups was just such a pain, everything blurred and glowed). Maybe I`ll get back to console shmups if I can afford a VGA box

(Oh wait, some are quite cheap, but thats a topic for the hardware section)

Soldato J · Post by **Soldato J** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:03 pm

Another bit on the standing thing: It all started when I got heavy into Pop'n Music and IIDX. I use a keyboard stand with my ASC and just plop my stick on a piece of wood to play shmups with the keyboard stand. I just can't play right sitting down for some reason...

CIT · Post by **CIT** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:41 pm

I use a tate 28" broadcast rgb monitor (essentially the equivalent of a monitor in a japanese cab) for my shmups, sitting about 80-100cm away.

Before that I either played in yoko or used a tate 14" TV (that really didn't like being put on its side, and eventually died on me, lol).

Anyway, I can say that switching to the huge monitor made a big difference for me. You can just tell what's going on a lot quicker, and it gets easier to judge spaces between bullets.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:12 pm

Just played some Imperishable Night and this game is so much kicking my ass. One thing I will never get right in this game is trying to keep track of the patterns as whole while twitch-dodging the single bullets. The character is just so tiny in the ocean of bullets that this game throws at you. Dodging in that game seems so fundamentaly different than in DoDonpachi, for instance. As much as I love Imperishable Night for its kitschy presentation and the jawdropping patterns, surviving is just a pain for me - and just not fun.

I guess the preferred screen size depends heavily on the style of shmup you`re playing.

And Dave_K`s Motion Induced Blindness thread is one of the most brilliant threads ever; I remember not reading it all, so I can do that now. Somehow I always had the feeling that we could be talking about such fundamental issues a whole lot more - talking about if R-Type or Gradius is the better game or if Battle Garegga sucks or rules doesn`t bother me that much, but what has drawn me the most into shmups in the first place was simply the fascination of dodging thrilling patterns (which disqualifies me for games like Raiden or R-Type). Watching replays of Ketsui or Espgaluda never looses excitement for me, and I really love to think about the whole fundamental mechanics behind that.

Klatrymadon · Post by **Klatrymadon** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:27 pm

Now for a poll on shmupper nearsightedness.

Figuratively speaking?

Soldato J · Post by **Soldato J** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:28 pm

Bal-Sagoth wrote:
Now for a poll on shmupper nearsightedness.
Figuratively speaking?

I'm basically blind by now, between shmupping, Bemani, and portable gaming systems