Most-Overrated Shmups of All Time Discussion

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Thread origin trivia

Spoiler

Originally intended to be a discussion thread for this.
Since people seemed/seem disinterested in voting but interested in the discussion, this thread remains.

Discussion thread about shmups you consider overrated. While several historical examples were named in the posts below, it's worth noting that the intended query is about your own views on the present shmup scene more than which games were overrated earlier. (Of course, I doubt anyone minds posts with interesting trivia about the subject, so go ham i guess.)

This is the first instance of the thread. It's nothing too serious, but I'd like to have a civil and peaceful discussion, even if we step on some toes. That's more or less the whole point of the thread, eh?

Here's a modified blurb from the failed voting thread about voting responsibly. We aren't voting for anything anymore, but it's still helpful I think.

Spoiler

A game is overrated if you consider that it receives praise and attention that it does not warrant. While I cannot change your opinions on what is fun and what is not, I can ask you to consider its qualities objectively before posting. Considering that a game has notable flaws that people ignore, gets popularity from its developer instead of inherent quality, or gets its fame purely for historical value would all be viable points for claiming a game is overrated. Anything else that seems logical also probably works. Again, I do not demand full explanations for your views, and nothing stops you from just talking about how a game just never clicked with you. This is just a primer for higher quality posts.

[Herr Schatten]

I'm not sure this really works as a poll, but the discussion is actually quite interesting. I just don't think that 'overrated' is actually useful as a categorization, because then the real question is "overrated by whom and, to a lesser extent, when"?

Let me elaborate: Unusual for shoot'em-ups, games like RSG or Ikaruga have recieved massive hype from the mainstream gaming press and thus are massively overrated by people who aren't really into the genre, simply because they are the only examples they know that aren't Tyrian. However, they are held in high regard among fans of the genre, too. They aren't really over-hyped there, but recognized as the genuinely good games they are. So are these overrated? Yes and no. Which answer are we looking for?

The same is true for other games. Over the years I have received much flak for my decades-old review of Armalyte, some of it well-deserved. It's a game many people remember fondly, not least because of its technical prowess. It was also very well recieved in the press back when it came out. While I still stand by my opinion that the game has several flaws that make it a less than stellar shmup, I have since come to the conclusion that it's actually a decent game regardless. It's just a different type of game. If, instead of as a shmup, you perceive it as a kind of obstacle course, it works quite well and is a fine game with some interesting ideas. So a few years ago I would have been convinced that the game is massively overrated. Today, I'm not so sure anymore.

Last example: Xenon II got ridiculously good reviews when it came out, and again, many people remember the game fondly. On the other hand, among shooter fans the game is hated almost equally unanimously. While I suspect that some of that hate comes from the fact that most people only know the Mega Drive version, which is much worse that the home computer originals, there are many valid points to raise why the game doesn't succeed as a shmup. However, as a casual cruise-em-up for people who aren't really into the genre it's pretty successful in what it tries to achieve. So is it overrated? Underrated? You could probably defend both positions.

[Tarma]

Last example: Xenon II got ridiculously good reviews when it came out, and again, many people remember the game fondly. On the other hand, among shooter fans the game is hated almost equally unanimously. While I suspect that some of that hate comes from the fact that most people only know the Mega Drive version, which is much worse that the home computer originals, there are many valid points to raise why the game doesn't succeed as a shmup. However, as a casual cruise-em-up for people who aren't really into the genre it's pretty successful in what it tries to achieve. So is it overrated? Underrated? You could probably defend both positions.

I had Xenon II on the Atari ST and loved it... at the time. About 7 years ago or so I got to play it again on the ST for the first time since the start of the 90s... it had not aged well. Very much a product of its time I think; and while I do recall thinking it was pretty good back in 1990, the rave reviews it recevied at the time probably had a lot to do with the fact it was a Bitmap Brothers game.

There was period between 1989 and about 1992 when, in the eyes of the gaming press at least, Bitmap Brothers could do no wrong... which may extend into why Xenon II is seen as overrated? Maybe.

As far as overrated for me goes... and I'm going to get called out on this one - Gradius. I really don't understand why it seems to be so universally embraced. It may have had some innovations for its time with the shot select mechanic, but I don't think it deserves the plaudits some people still give it.

[Rastan78]

Yeah the context matters whether you're talking among actual players or media reviews. Sine Mora was absolutely overrated in the press getting lots of 9/10s and so forth.

https://www.thesixthaxis.com/2017/08/09 ... ex-review/

This review claims that "side-scrolling shooters simply don’t get much better than this." That's about as clear cut an example of "overrating" something as you could find as the game is an admittedly shiny, yet objectively steamy, turd.

[Jeneki]

Just link to one of my top-25 lists. If I put it on there, chances are, I'm overrating it.

[Rastan78]

As far as overrated for me goes... and I'm going to get called out on this one - Gradius. I really don't understand why it seems to be so universally embraced. It may have had some innovations for its time with the shot select mechanic, but I don't think it deserves the plaudits some people still give it.

With Gradius you have to remember how old it actually is. In 1985 was miles ahead of anything else out. A lot of games had repetitive, annoying (or even lacked) music. Stages were bland and bled into one another. Playability and fluid controls could be seriously jacked. i mean look at the jump from Scramble (Gradius was essentially Scramble 2).

I totally get not enjoying it as much as others, but when something is way far ahead of its competition and leaves such an influence behind, it's tough to call it overrated.

For example I don't really enjoy Cave games, or danmaku in general. They do get the lion's share of attention among the shmups community, but I can't say they're overrated either. Ultimately they have an objective level of quality and have also redefined the genre when in their prime.

[StudioMudprints]

Do I really want to open this can of worms again?

Reeally?

Oh well, whatever. Hyper Duel. Super-duper overrated. I can't take the hype seriously when both Blast Wind and Thunder Force V (SAT version) - both also by Technosoft - do better, more interesting things with their gameplay and have arguably better presentation (in the case of TFV in particular.) I genuinely don't understand how Hyper Duel is the one so hyped-up when the other two are arguably better, more nuanced games, and no one to day has really rationally explained it.

There, I said it. Here comes the pain.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

I'm not sure this really works as a poll, but the discussion is actually quite interesting. I just don't think that 'overrated' is actually useful as a categorization, because then the real question is "overrated by whom and, to a lesser extent, when"?

I mean, considering I was aiming for a vote/poll, it should apply only to the present, and to the shmup playerbase, with a little leeway to the general playerbase if it's called for (ie, situations like what sine mora had).

Of course, nothing's wrong with discussing older overrated titles either. Xenon 2 is a textbook example!

Do I really want to open this can of worms again?

Yeah! I firmly believe we can keep things chill and friendly while bashing each other's tastes.

Hyper Duel

As a Tecnosoft appreciator, I'd say Hyper Duel has similar failings to TF4 in that the presentation is great, but gameplay fails to live up. The scoring in particular is ass. In conclusion, great album, the game is ok too.

[drauch]

This can't turn out any worse than the unpopular opinions thread, right?

[Austin]

TFV is "nuanced"? lmfao.

I have a feeling this thread is mostly going to consist of people tearing apart popular games.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

I have a feeling this thread is mostly going to consist of people tearing apart popular games.

Good.

[Austin]

I have a feeling this thread is mostly going to consist of people tearing apart popular games for ridiculously stupid, arbitrary reasons.

Good.

Fixed my quote.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

I have a feeling this thread is mostly going to consist of people tearing apart popular games for ridiculously stupid, arbitrary reasons.

Not good.
AH!

[Creamy Goodness]

I didn't enjoy Lords of Thunder nearly as much as everyone praises it. Something just seemed kind of haphazard about it especially stuff like enemy placement. And this is probably more just personal preference, but I found the power metal OST to be kind of grating. Except for stage 2's track. And this is from someone who used to listen to a lot of metal.

[bobhasashotgun]

As far as overrated for me goes... and I'm going to get called out on this one - Gradius. I really don't understand why it seems to be so universally embraced. It may have had some innovations for its time with the shot select mechanic, but I don't think it deserves the plaudits some people still give it.

Do a side by side comparison of Capcom's arcade success "1942" and "Gradius" and keep in mind that these game came out within a few months of each other. I'd argue Gradius wasn't just a step forward for the genre but for the industry as a whole.

[Sumez]

1985 and the next few years was a real crazy progressive period for the genre.
Hell, Fantasy Zone came out only a year later, and Flying Shark a year after that.

Yeah I can get why you wouldn't like Gradius, but then I also feel that the first game is generally not that revered outside recognition of its groundbreaking influence, and as a quick simple no-frills experience for your first arcade 1CC. Gradius 2 is where the real fun starts for me.

[SPM]

I'd argue Gradius wasn't just a step forward for the genre but for the industry as a whole.

It definitely was. (with some stuff in the wrong direction)

From that year I'd rather play Section Z, Gun.Smoke or even Horizon any day. So fun!

Gradius 2 is where the real fun starts for me.

+1

[To Far Away Times]

Do I really want to open this can of worms again?

Reeally?

Oh well, whatever. Hyper Duel. Super-duper overrated. I can't take the hype seriously when both Blast Wind and Thunder Force V (SAT version) - both also by Technosoft - do better, more interesting things with their gameplay and have arguably better presentation (in the case of TFV in particular.) I genuinely don't understand how Hyper Duel is the one so hyped-up when the other two are arguably better, more nuanced games, and no one to day has really rationally explained it.

There, I said it. Here comes the pain.

Agreed. One of those where I played it and I was like, "Is that it?"

If it wasn't made by Technosoft no one would care about it.

[Sengoku Strider]

My vote: Literally everything on the ZX Spectrum. No, it wasn't good for the time. Or any time. I'm amazed that generation of Brit kids can still see.

Last example: Xenon II got ridiculously good reviews when it came out, and again, many people remember the game fondly. On the other hand, among shooter fans the game is hated almost equally unanimously. While I suspect that some of that hate comes from the fact that most people only know the Mega Drive version, which is much worse that the home computer originals, there are many valid points to raise why the game doesn't succeed as a shmup. However, as a casual cruise-em-up for people who aren't really into the genre it's pretty successful in what it tries to achieve. So is it overrated? Underrated? You could probably defend both positions.

As one of those people with very rosey memories of the Amiga version, having gone back to check it out it's pretty rough. In its time the preponderance of gadgets you could attach to your ship were cool (since everybody had a cracked version and maxed out from stage 1), the shiny graphics were excellent, and the soundtrack was as cutting edge as it got for 1989.

But I have a hard time thinking anyone casual coming into it fresh in 2022 would find it all that appealing, without being a major classic computer enthusiast or something.

The frame rate is kinda jank.
The backgrounds hardly change until the final stage.
Like many computer games of the era it's going to stomp anyone casual trying to play it legit.
The game is 45 minutes long (without dying) and only plays that one song.

Now don't get me wrong, Flava Flav was my hero at the time, and 45 minutes of him saying his own name is fine by me. But I'm not sure I'm representative of the general population in that regard. Even among just home consoles there's an awful lot of 1989 material (Western launch year for both the Genesis & TurboGrafx-16, post NES Life Force, Zanac & Guardian Legend, post Power Strike, etc.) that's held up much better.

As far as overrated for me goes... and I'm going to get called out on this one - Gradius. I really don't understand why it seems to be so universally embraced. It may have had some innovations for its time with the shot select mechanic, but I don't think it deserves the plaudits some people still give it.

This one, however, I will stick up for. My memories of Gradius came from the NES version, which was downright primordial. As a 1986 release it was pre-Castlevania, pre-Zelda & Metroid, and was pretty much co-temporaneous with the black box games (speaking purely from a Western perspective here). By the time I finally got an NES it was a fossil.

But I recently picked up the PC Engine version and I'll be damned if the PCE ports of Gradius & Salamander don't kick ass (I'll even take that Salamander over the arcade). They're beautiful and eminently still pick-up-and-playable in 2022. I had been feeling kind of over Gradius as a series for a while, but this rekindled my enjoyment.

Rastan has already spoken a bit about the arcade game in its original context. It becomes pretty amazing when you consider it: released Feb. 2 1985, barely out of 1984. The Sega Mark III/Master System wasn't even out yet. Neither was Super Mario Bros. Pre R-Type, pre-Fantasy Zone, pre-Darius. And its influences on all those are undeniable. It's pre Tiger-Heli even - Gradius predates Toaplan as a shooter dev. And for all that Toaplan innovated, their second shmup, Slap Fight lifted Gradius' power up mechanic wholesale.

The artwork was so incredibly well done it tops even games done years later:



You could also peg Xevious or 1942 as landmarks, but I really think it's Gradius that marks the dividing line between the golden age shooter and what the genre became until the bullet hell revolution (and even then, Crimzon Clover WE uses that Gradius power up mechanic).

Do I really want to open this can of worms again?

If you could keep opening it until the game's going price online drops about $500 or $600 or so, that would be super.

[davyK]

Is used to always wonder what the fuss about Xevious was all about. I really didn't like it.

But for some reason more recently I have found it compelling. It just has a certain something and a charm.

Sometimes a game is considered over rated because of the hype train building expectations too high. When I eventually got Radiant Silvergun I was distinctly underwhelmed. I have since revised my opinon of it after going back to it. It isn't a game that suffers fools and requires a bit of investment.

I just don't get the Ikaruga love - that's probably my most overrated pick. It's a very good game but I just couldn't get hooked on it. Perhaps it's a victim of hype too.

I have never got the Thunder Force love. Was underwhelmed by TFIV in particular. Offloaded it pretty sharpish.

Xenon II? Dull as ditchwater. I had the Megadrive cart. I actually physically binned it.

[BulletMagnet]

I'm not sure this really works as a poll, but the discussion is actually quite interesting. I just don't think that 'overrated' is actually useful as a categorization, because then the real question is "overrated by whom and, to a lesser extent, when"?

Not too long ago in the Other Gaming section someone posted a "thought experiment list" topic that I and a handful of others participated in; sans prompting several of us included short explanatory/commentary bits alongside our selections, and IMO that was the most interesting/illuminating part of it.

Along those same lines I agree with HS that despite your stated intention to collect data here, said data can only serve so much purpose when applied to a subject perhaps even more subjective than the annual "top" shmup lists; I'd be more interested to hear precisely why people don't like certain shmups as much as others do than simply keep track of which ones are mentioned most often, and moreover such posts would be less inclined to garner "you hate my favorite game, what's the matter with you?" indignant replies. To that end if you want to stick with a list format I wouldn't make it any longer than 10 entries off the cuff.

[harborline765]

Sine Mora is the first game that came to mind.

Also Sin & Punishment 2. While an extremely inventive game as far as level design and boss encounters go, there's just too much of it. While I'm happy to replay the first game forever, the second game goes on for several hours, and could have used with some much needed editing. Some levels definitely outstay their welcome, if the game was fresh in my mind I'd elaborate but I was thinking about this when I revisited it almost two years ago.

I didn't enjoy Lords of Thunder nearly as much as everyone praises it. Something just seemed kind of haphazard about it especially stuff like enemy placement. And this is probably more just personal preference, but I found the power metal OST to be kind of grating. Except for stage 2's track. And this is from someone who used to listen to a lot of metal.

This is how I felt about Lords of Thunder as well. It's serviceable but everything it did to stand out presentation-wise just took away from the game.

---

Does Soldier Blade live up to its holy grail status? I would like to revisit it one day, I admittedly bounced off it when I did give it a shot, but it could just be the PSP's D-Pad being much too sensitive for small movements (had the PC Engine Archives version)

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Spoiler

Not too long ago in the Other Gaming section someone posted a "thought experiment list" topic that I and a handful of others participated in; sans prompting several of us included short explanatory/commentary bits alongside our selections, and IMO that was the most interesting/illuminating part of it.

Along those same lines I agree with HS that despite your stated intention to collect data here, said data can only serve so much purpose when applied to a subject perhaps even more subjective than the annual "top" shmup lists; I'd be more interested to hear precisely why people don't like certain shmups as much as others do than simply keep track of which ones are mentioned most often, and moreover such posts would be less inclined to garner "you hate my favorite game, what's the matter with you?" indignant replies. To that end if you want to stick with a list format I wouldn't make it any longer than 10 entries off the cuff.

People have pretty much ignored the voting thread anyway, despite it technically letting you vote with fewer entries. No harm in leaving this around though. Some fun reads came from it already, and nothing icky so far. (Very good, gain a Fraudpoint)

Also Sin & Punishment 2.

Not sure if I'd classify that as a shmup, personally.

Does Soldier Blade live up to its holy grail status?

Calling any game a holy grail is likely to set expectations too high. But yeah, personally I had great fun with Soldier Blade. Others can probably relate.

[To Far Away Times]

Does Soldier Blade live up to its holy grail status? I would like to revisit it one day, I admittedly bounced off it when I did give it a shot, but it could just be the PSP's D-Pad being much too sensitive for small movements (had the PC Engine Archives version)

Most definitely. I played it on a whim, not knowing about its reputation at all and I was blown away in a "Holy shit, this random game is amazing" kinda way. I don't know if its the absolute best 16 bit shmup; there's probably a good 5 or so console shmups I'd put ahead of it from that era, but I think its a very notable game well worth anyone's time who's a fan of the genre. I think it is the very best of the Blazing Lazers/Super Star Solider/Final Soldier Compile-like PC Engine games.

[Sengoku Strider]

Is used to always wonder what the fuss about Xevious was all about. I really didn't like it.

But for some reason more recently I have found it compelling. It just has a certain something and a charm.

I think Xevious is kinda basic with an annoying repetitive soundtrack, and have since playing it on my friend's 7800 back in like 1989 or something. But it's one of those games like Hydlide where you can't appreciate its relevance without understanding its context.

In Japan it had been a successful arcade game that drew crowds with its well-animated metallic enemies and secrets to discover. It got a pretty accurate conversion that hit the Famicom holiday 1984, just as that system was taking off, and its only shooting competition on the platform was another much earlier Namco shooter, Galaxian. In fact aside from Devil World, it was the only game on the system that even had a scrolling screen. So at the time it left quite an impression on a lot of budding developers as the most dynamic thing going on the home market (personal computers weren't powerful enough to compete).

Most definitely. I played it on a whim, not knowing about its reputation at all and I was blown away in a "Holy shit, this random game is amazing" kinda way. I don't know if its the absolute best 16 bit shmup; there's probably a good 5 or so console shmups I'd put ahead of it from that era, but I think its a very notable game well worth anyone's time who's a fan of the genre. I think it is the very best of the Blazing Lazers/Super Star Solider/Final Soldier Compile-like PC Engine games.

I really like all four of those games and own them all in one form or another. But TBH I feel like I'm missing something with Soldier Blade.

Of the four, Compile's Blazing Lazers really seems the most interesting to me, moving blazing fast and taking you through a number of colourful and really varied locales.

Kaneko's Super Star Soldier puts up the toughest fight of the four.

Hudson's Final Soldier gets put down as the weakest of the four, but I have no clue why. It looks & sounds great (I've seen it referenced as the best looking HuCard game) and plays much the same, just easier.

Soldier Blade...I play these games back to back all the time trying to sort them apart. The truth is they're all so similar, but especially Final & Blade. Blade does some things well, like telling a story throughout your battles without needing words. Its soundtrack is kickin'. The ship & enemy design are cool. The opening logo crawl is awesome.

But it's also kinda drab. The first two stages run together, both clouds over blue sky. The third stage is...a road. The fourth stage is just space again. They ditched the cool warp effect from the end of levels in Final. The weapons seem less balanced. I dunno, it's not that I don't like the game, I just can't figure out why it fetches $200+ on PCE while the other two can be had for $40.

[jehu]

If anyone strikes upon a game that's actually overrated, whole thread's gonna blow. And I guess that's fine, whatever - what are we without our angst?

It might not be the worst idea to set criteria for what counts as 'overrated.' I'm not sure that Speccy STGs and the Amiga games that only a few Germans and Brits pine after in their dreams count. No offense to the Europeans; I've just seen no evidence that their nostalgia has had an impact on wider perceptions of the STG canon. And, if you ask me, we shouldn't count classic arcade games that contributed to the 'form' we all love so much, even if the game has become overshadowed by fresher blood. For example, anyone who knows anything realizes that Xevious had a tremendous influence on the evolution of the genre, but only the occasional eccentric recommends it to newer players as a pleasant way to pass the weekend. I'd like to enter as evidence: it was the #128th most popular STG last year according to our own poll. Not that popular, certainly not overrated. Therefore, I'd argue that saying Xevious is overrated betrays a conflation of influence and contemporary popularity. And also, calling 'Sine Mora' overrated is true in terms of wider critical response, but around here it's just a circle-jerk. I think the best targets for a thread like this would be games that our community continues to exalt, games that have made it into our 'Top 25' and the 'Honorable Mentions' - and preferably in recent years.

But anyway, I'll swing my hammer into the ground and see if I hit a mine.

My targets: G-Darius and Darius Gaiden.

Why? After all, I concede the impeccable presentation. The art and music are fantastic, it's true. But the gameplay and design elements - the beating heart of our genre - are weak. There's a kind of sloppiness to the design of the bullet patterns, especially later in each of the games. The shield mechanic is designed to wave that problem away - and it does make the games playable - but the slop is still there, not far from the surface, to anyone with eyes to see it. Moreover, the stage-select mechanic is intriguing in principle, but only results in underdesigned stages with underwhelming layouts - exacerbating the slop factor. Darius wants to shovel 'content' in front of your faces, wants you to find these messy heaps of 'content' appetizing. Nowhere was Taito so sure that you'd gobble it up than in Dariusburst - that galaxies-wide collection of filthy content. "You can basically play it forever!" No thanks. The 'content' problem is less extreme in Darius Gaiden and G-Darius, but it's certainly not absent; does anyone actually think all Gaiden's stages are intricately constructed? And all this is to say nothing of the Gaiden autofire mess. It does not speak highly of a game that most people only find it tolerable to play only with an inhuman 30hz tapping speed.

So anyway, there you go. These threads seem designed to make each other angry, so I hope I did my job. I look forward to replying defensively when someone suggests I'm a tasteless dotard.

[Sima Tuna]

Spoiler for qualification/sperge.

Spoiler

I guess you have to separate what overrated even means in this context. Do you mean overrated today, in 2021? If so, I'd argue a lot of "dad shmups" are supremely overrated... But that's only if you judge them compared to modern games, and argue against people who are saying the games 100% hold up today (some do and some don't). Older shmups had so many frustrating design decisions which felt extremely arbitrary and bullshitty, from gradius syndrome to side snipers, snipers from behind, scrolling screens that don't seal enemy bullets, being forced to dodge super tight spreads with a massive hitbox on your ship, etc.

But that's only if we judge those old games against the standards of today, which isn't entirely fair to them, is it? I do have a little bit of an issue with the individuals who shill those super old games as if they're better because they're old or something. How any game holds up today certainly wasn't a consideration at the time the game was being developed. On the other hand, games aren't necessarily bad just because they're old either. Some of the old games were so advanced when they came out that they're still the gold standard for their genre. I'm thinking of mostly non-shmups as my examples, like streets of rage 2, contra nes, elevator action returns, kirby's adventure... Those rare older games that not only "hold up" but thrive compared to modern games. I'd also stick Thunder Force AC and Zanac in there, for shmups.

I think it's easier to make an argument about "overrated" in the context of mainstream opinions by people who don't play shmups. I would definitely say Ikaruga is overrated in that environment. So many people shill Ikaruga, but it's a very singular shmup and one that a lot of shmup players probably won't enjoy... Because it's not always very shmup-like. I know I didn't enjoy the game when I played it. My shot felt weak, I didn't enjoy the charge mechanic, my tiny reptile brain couldn't handle polarity switching... Dammit, I just want to shoot shit and dodge! Why you make me think? Grug go back to Espgaluda II, ook ook.

I find that a lot of non-shmuppers tend to recommend the same shit over and over. You'll get Ikaruga, then all the old standards like R-Type, Gradius, maybe a cave game (mushi or ddp probably,) Space Invaders, Galaga, Gradius V maybe, Raiden... It's not so much a list of what shmups are good as what shmups the mainstream even knows exist. Truxton could get a recommendation if the mainstream guy used to watch classic game room... I mean, the problem I have with those kind of recommendations is that R-Type, Gradius, Raiden and Truxton are terrible games to recommend to non-shmuppers. They're full of checkpoints, gradius syndrome and sniper enemies. Absolute torture. So then people play those games and they think shmups are just all that way. Or they play Ikaruga and think every shmup is going to be like Ikaruga, when none of them are. Shit like Space Invaders and Galaga get recommended to people even though they're not shmups.

https://www.ign.com/articles/2008/04/08 ... oot-em-ups

^This is what I'm talking about. They had the entire library of shmups to pick from pre-1998, and the best one, to them, was Radiant Silvergun. Alongside such classics as not-a-shmup space invaders and not-a-shmup Star Wars Arcade. Games are being recommended for their name or their legacy. Nobody making a list of "the ten shmups that play the best in 2022" would put R-Type in there. Even if you love r-type, you'd put in something else from the series/dev that just plays better. X-Multiply maybe. Same goes for Gradius or Raiden. Gradius 1 didn't even have bosses, just the same boss for every level. How could that be the best gradius game, let alone the best shmup? Especially considering the many iterations upon its formula, both by Konami and other shmup devs.

My point is just that I want people to arrive at their conclusions on what they recommend based on what they have personally played and enjoyed. If someone genuinely thinks r-type 1 is the best r-type-like game ever made, then I can't argue with that opinion. But I don't want people to put r-type on some best shmups list if they personally don't want to play the fucking game. You're not obligated to put "citizen kane" in your favorite movies list or r-type in the best shmups. When I see the same stuff recommended over and over, especially when I know it's full of memorization and hard as balls, then I start to get suspicious that the people recommending it aren't really playing it.

[Sumez]

Lol, that list reads like a meme.

3: Dodonpachi. Okay, cool
2: River Raid. What
1. Radiant Silvergun. "You knew this one would be #1" wait what, how

Anyway, I get Star Wars arcade, but saying Galaga and Space Invaders "aren't shmups" sounds a little needlessly critical. I get why you'd consider them proto-shmups or whatever due to the basic gameplay not following the strict formula of a constantly scrolling shooters with 8 way movement, but that kind of distinction is rarely necessary in this context. Even the annual top 25 voting allows them, and specifically mentions them.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Considering shot limit is still present in many modern shmups, just to a lesser degree, the only difference space invaders would have from a "full shmup" is lack of vertical movement. I can see why people would still classify it as a shmup and am firmly on that side.

[Angry Hina]

@Sima Tuna Got the point for me. But the most non-STG-players (like some guys of the yt scene or have written for magazines) often can not even see how hard a Tatsujin or r-type is compared to lets say GG Aleste 1 (or better say 2 but 1 applies for many folks alike). They are not used to this 'one mistake and thats it'-design and you can find in magazines nearly no one who can distinguish these difficulties. They all seem to be only for machines or some japanese otakus manageable.

As we've talked about xevious: its a bit newer but Star Force is also a very early vertical STG and is even more basic than xevious, I guess, but this one can get you kinda hooked with its simple but appealing design. Its very old but I would recommend it for a little play even today. But xevious... possibly not^^

But back to topic:
I like Thunder Force IV but it does some things really not that great. For example do most boss fights such, if you arent fully powered up. Also the music is not always so great and some stages are a bit bland. Its a great game anyway but Thunder Force III does nearly everything better. But TFIV is boosted from the mainstream press for its gorgeous graphics. And if you aim for an 1 LC its great as well but if you are not that used to the genre TFIII is much more fun and is overall the better done game.

And than... Fireshark.
Have only played the MD version and I don't like it even it looks, sound and plays better and has a more linear difficulty curve. But the other Toaplan vertical STG-port (not played kyuukyoku tiger so far) seem to have a more interesting stage design/enemy pattern. Fireshark seem to use too often simple mass attacks from all sides and you must be really often aware of not get in touch with the green weapon-item or you can be dead because of the many kamikaze attacks.