R-Type 3 Stage 4 Question

[Structor125]

I’ve heard people complain about this stage in particular because it has too much memorization with the fire columns and all, and it seems like an obvious example of frustrating trial and error design, at least at a surface level. I’m interested in shooter level design, and I was wondering where we should draw the line with trial and error and memorization. Other shooters seem to have plenty of areas that rely on trial and error. I had more trouble with some stages from Final honestly. 6.0, F-B, and especially F-C were nightmares when I first reached them. Is there something particularly egregious about R-Type 3’s stage 4 that I’m missing?

[SPM]

At the very least, players should feel they have a way to avoid a threat reactively. This is the reason why many criticize environmental traps over bullet hells even though both have lots of trial and error (you won't survive the hardest bullet hell patterns without some luck or bullet manipulation and right positioning, which requires knowledge by trial and error... But feels better than being trapping in a dead end).

That stage in particular has too much bullshit, one after another, and the checkpoint system emphasizes that problem.

Don't know about Final, only played the first 3 R-Type. The first one has stage 6 and the second stage 5, both with the same problem but nowhere near this stage 4. The concept is great but it's tiring.

[Angry Hina]

Final stage 6? Don't know how hard RT3s stage 4 really is. Haven't tried a 1cc so far but when I see it, I think its from the design point of view really cheap and after clearing it, you can say, you've beaten some Lava pipes... not so great I guess. But I like to hear, that you didn't had that much trouble with this one. Gives me hope for myself in the future^^

Finals stage 6 is just awesome and has so much variation and different strategies are needed. Just memorization of positions ist simply not fun. Especially if it looks so boring

[To Far Away Times]

R-Type 3's Stage 4 is either one of the best or worst levels in shmup history. And I'm not sure which it is. It certainly is memorable though.

Deconstructed into a "Is it fair or is it cheap" it leans on the side of being cheap but... that level is absolutely full of personality. It even has a fake out and makes you do it again backwards as if it was intentionally antagonizing the player. I think it's kinda brilliant in it's own way.

[Structor125]

R-Type 3's Stage 4 is either one of the best or worst levels in shmup history. And I'm not sure which it is.

I know, right? I get so confused by shooter level design because I'll play a level for like an hour getting destroyed by all the seemingly cheap obstacles and then when I beat it I think, "Well that was a pretty good level." I really did like R-Type 3 for trying unique level design like going backwards in stage 4 or going vertical in stage 3. Maybe that's what stood out for me.

Finals stage 6 is just awesome and has so much variation and different strategies are needed.

Fair enough. Admittedly, I only went down the F-A route once, so I don't have the experience like I do with 6.2 which the game made me play like 20 times for the best ending. 6.0 is one of the most memorable levels in Final though.

That stage in particular has too much bullshit, one after another, and the checkpoint system emphasizes that problem.

I'm not certain if I understand. Is it a problem that it has a checkpoint system here, or the frequency of the checkpoints? I liked the frequency of R-Type 3's checkpoints, but maybe I just have PTSD from playing Super R-Type.

[SPM]

That stage in particular has too much bullshit, one after another, and the checkpoint system emphasizes that problem.

I'm not certain if I understand. Is it a problem that it has a checkpoint system here, or the frequency of the checkpoints? I liked the frequency of R-Type 3's checkpoints, but maybe I just have PTSD from playing Super R-Type.

The frequency of cheap deaths in a game with a CP system. I mean... cheap deaths feel worse when you have to redo a whole section again because of it. If there's only 1 or 2 cheap deaths, it's not too bad, but if you are going to die 20 times in a cheap way, it gets on your nerves. I like R-Type's CP system. The problem is the amount of potential cheap deaths.

The stage is cool, but should have more ways to escape the lava IMO. Final 2's easier difficulties did this great by quickly showing you the path the lava will follow.

[Angry Hina]

And you can destroy even these pipes, right?

@Structor125:
What I'm interestid in is, if you played the stage 4 within an emulator or with some kind of tool assistance. Most people do it nowadays but back in the day no one could do it on the SNES and I do it neither. If you have to play so long to do your memorization test, for most players its not the pure definition of fun. If you can play this stage forever again and again till you get it, its possibly ok.

[MommysBestGames]

I was blown away playing that the first time on the SNES. And when it then went backwards! I was laughing maniacally. It was cruel but hilarious.
IN THEORY, the fact that the lava flows and telegraphs where it's going, and that there is a predictable logic to it, that part is not that cheap. And even having the little arms come out and change the flow, that's cool too.

There's a few problems though at least in the SNES version.
The arms split the flow *on the fly*! Having a second stream shoot a new way, destroying a spot that clearly looked safe, that just takes memorization. What's appealing about this stage is looking at the lava spouts, and trying to predict what direction they'll flow (or seeing them move ahead of you). That's very cool. And if you saw a path, and then saw a splitter move, creating a new path, which means you have to fly to a new spot, that's cool too. But the reaction time of it all would have a little grace time for that decision. That would be fun as well.
The problem is when they defy your expectations, and a splitter moves the flow suddenly and surprises you. That's the main cheap part.

I thought Final 2 modernized that area pretty well and made it pretty enjoyable still, but much more forgiving. Might be too easy now!

[Structor125]

The frequency of cheap deaths in a game with a CP system.

I see. That's what I figured you meant, but I wanted to make sure.

What I'm interestid in is, if you played the stage 4 within an emulator or with some kind of tool assistance.

I used bsnes, but no save states or anything. In hindsight, the game would have probably been less painful if I would have used save sates first to memorize the stages, and then went back and completed them all normally. I'm by no means an R-Type 3 expert, and I haven't even gotten a 1CC yet.

IN THEORY, the fact that the lava flows and telegraphs where it's going, and that there is a predictable logic to it, that part is not that cheap.

That, perhaps, is the essence of what I do not understand about R-Type level design. It feels like it is possible on the first try, but nobody is actually going to do it without memorization. It feels like I 'should' hate sections like 3's stage 4, but something makes me keep coming back to them.

[To Far Away Times]

IN THEORY, the fact that the lava flows and telegraphs where it's going, and that there is a predictable logic to it, that part is not that cheap.

That, perhaps, is the essence of what I do not understand about R-Type level design. It feels like it is possible on the first try, but nobody is actually going to do it without memorization. It feels like I 'should' hate sections like 3's stage 4, but something makes me keep coming back to them.

It's telegraphed, but making those reads is damn near impossible. It makes it feel fair, even if what's being asked of the player is incredibly hard. No one is going to make those reads on a first attempt. Part of what makes R-Type games work is that they're so static (even compared to most other shmups), and the games encourage pattern recognition and routing. Once you know the route, you're golden. Executing the routes in the various R-Types games isn't that hard with a few exceptions (Stages 6 and 7 in R-Type 1 and the last couple stages of R-Type 2 are pretty tough even if you know what to do.) R-Type 3's Stage 4 is the hardest level in that game by far. I got the 1CC the first time I made it past that stage in a legit run (with some save state practice on the later levels beforehand). R-Type 3's Stage 5 is a sleeper and Stage 6 has some tricky spots but you should have plenty of lives by that point and the checkpoints are quite forgiving.

I have a shit clear of it on YouTube with a bunch of deaths on the final stage trying to figure out the recoveries.

[Structor125]

Once you know the route, you're golden. Executing the routes in the various R-Types games isn't that hard with a few exceptions

That sounds about right. They feel like games where you can easily gauge your growth in skill. I do enjoy that.

you should have plenty of lives by that point

Remember when R-Type had extends? What happened to those? Congrats on the 1CC though. I have to use your method for quick killing the stage 4 boss when I play the game again. That boss gave me more trouble than the fire columns.

[Angry Hina]

@To Far Away Times
Its no real 1cc if you pause the game
Anyway, good work

[To Far Away Times]

@To Far Away Times
Its no real 1cc if you pause the game
Anyway, good work

Thank you. Haha, I remember that thread.

[Structor125]

Well, I got really close to getting a 1CC using the methods in your video. I like the quick kill method for the boss of stage 4, but I do not understand why the spinning hyper mode bit devices do more damage than the hyper mode fire itself! I would have never guessed that myself. I can kind of understand the pain of stage 4 more when trying to get a 1CC even though I had more trouble with stage 5 and 6. My biggest design gripe with the game is those stupid speed up powerups. There's one at 15:52 that is nearly impossible to avoid with my route, and I'm not certain if I should change my route to avoid it or not.

[To Far Away Times]

Well, I got really close to getting a 1CC using the methods in your video. I like the quick kill method for the boss of stage 4, but I do not understand why the spinning hyper mode bit devices do more damage than the hyper mode fire itself! I would have never guessed that myself. I can kind of understand the pain of stage 4 more when trying to get a 1CC even though I had more trouble with stage 5 and 6. My biggest design gripe with the game is those stupid speed up powerups. There's one at 15:52 that is nearly impossible to avoid with my route, and I'm not certain if I should change my route to avoid it or not.

Oh man, you were so close. You'll get it next time for sure.

Ah I knew exactly what speed up you were talking about before I clicked the video. I had the same problem. That speed up messed up so many attempts for me. My strategy was to hold off from firing and let the power up carrier drop as low as it can go and then fire. You should have enough room to go over the power up, but it's a tight fit. I messed it up in my run and grabbed it, but that was my solution.

[Structor125]

Okay finally. Thankfully, I was able to bypass the speedup this time. I considered trying to not pickup any speedups until stage 4, but I couldn't convince myself to do that. On to the next R-Type, which for me is R-Type 1.

[To Far Away Times]

Nice, man. I knew you could do it. Really liked your use of the charge shot at 16:00. Congrats on a really hard clear, you should feel proud.

R-Type 3 stage 4 is, IMO, the single hardest level in any R-Type game. So if you can do that, you can do any of the games.

If you go on to R-Type 1 you're in for a real treat. I think that game has a real legitimate case for being the best game of the entire 1980's. Graphics, music, production values, game design, stage design, its all world class.

[Structor125]

Thanks for your kind words. I am, of course, having a blast with R-Type 1 so far. I'm happy to finally cross this one off the list.