Memory based shmups

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glide
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Memory based shmups

Post by glide »

I'm looking for shmups in which enemies come in waves and you have to memorize the patterns to progress. Games that are hard at first but become easy once you've memorized it. I tend to enjoy these more than purely skill based shmups (I really suck at shmups, tbh). Nexzr and Xenon 2 are good examples of what I'm looking for.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Shepardus »

I think "purely skill based" is a misleading term because it implies that memorization and learning from past experience (and executing on it) isn't a skill. Memorization is going to help in pretty much every shmup, anyway, unless it's entirely random, but you're right in that how much it helps varies from game to game (and person to person).

Maybe you should check out some of Irem's games such as R-Type, X-Multiply, or Image Fight. Psikyo games are also heavily dependent on memorization (because there's little RNG and the bullets get so fast that reacting to them on the fly becomes unrealistic pretty quickly), but executing the patterns accurately is still challenging even if you know what to do. I will also add that the arcade version of Parodius Da! isn't very taxing on reactions or precision (in the first loop at least) thanks to all the slowdown, but a rough familiarity with the level layouts and the game's systems is paramount to success. Maybe Detana!! TwinBee too (again, the first loop) since there's next to no randomness and there isn't anything that really requires high precision or quick reactions. It's very unforgiving unless you get comfortable with the bell juggling, though, which does require a bit more on-the-fly judgment calls.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Square_Air »

Shepardus wrote:I think "purely skill based" is a misleading term because it implies that memorization and learning from past experience (and executing on it) isn't a skill.
This, and I second the Irem and Psikyo recommendation. Another respected company that is well known for this is Toaplan, so check em' out. The early Seibu Kaihatsu Raiden games are pretty memo heavy, but the Zako RNG might turn you off, or the fact that Early Raiden is brutally unforgiving of mistakes.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Plasmo »

As was noted already, the main skill you develop in shmups is memorization. There is hardly any title in which memorization is not the primary obstacle. CAVE games are incredibly memo heavy, so you might want to check those ones out. The same applies for anything by Toaplan, Psikyo, Takumi, Seibu/Moss, Treasure, and practically almost any other developer.

Some of the more popular games with more chaos, which then make you react and adapt to the new situations, are made by Raizing, e.g. Garegga.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Klabauter8 »

Plasmo wrote:CAVE games are incredibly memo heavy, so you might want to check those ones out.
I'm sure Cave is the last thing this person wants to play, since they are heavily about dodging precision with tons of micro dodging or silly pixel dodging.

I find it very obvious what he meant. R-Type games (or anything by Irem) are very nice memorizers. Lots of cheeky enemies coming from behind and tricky puzzle-like enemy formations, but once you get the hang of it, it's not that hard to execute.

Ikaruga is also very nice to play if you like memorizers (it's the best in fact). It's a bit like a modern version of R-Type. Also want to check out Radiant Silvergun perhaps. It's similar in this regard. When it comes to Psikyo, I can really only recommend Strikers45. Later games also become more about dodging precision there.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by mycophobia »

Tiger-Heli is pretty much pure memorization. Get the Japanese version so you have the faster ship.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Shepardus »

CAVE games require a lot of memorization especially when it comes to scoring, but it's also a lot to do with timing and precision even if you remember what you need to do.

I forgot to mention that you should check out Radiant Silvergun.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Plasmo »

Klabauter8 wrote:
Plasmo wrote:CAVE games are incredibly memo heavy, so you might want to check those ones out.
I'm sure Cave is the last thing this person wants to play, since they are heavily about dodging precision with tons of micro dodging or silly pixel dodging.

I find it very obvious what he meant. R-Type games (or anything by Irem) are very nice memorizers. Lots of cheeky enemies coming from behind and tricky puzzle-like enemy formations, but once you get the hang of it, it's not that hard to execute.
CAVE games and R-Type are both primarily based on memorization. The difference between the two is, that when you start playing it, you can get much further in a CAVE game just by randomly dodging through it, while R-Type kills you quicker. When you actually begin to play the game more seriously and memorize it, you will eliminate all difficult parts in R-Type at one point, whereas in CAVE games some sporadic RNG parts remain. But then again, I am not too familiar with R-Type and perhaps the same holds true here as well?

There's not a lot of dodging involved in CAVE games tho. It's mostly just following a route just as in R-Type. If you route around environmental obstacles or around bullets makes no difference.

It also makes hardly any sense to contrast memorization and micrododging, since dodging can also be part of memorization itself. Knowing when and how to micrododge what part, is already memorization.

True non-memo is Touhou. Those games are impossible to play and probably the hardest games ever made.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Shepardus »

Plasmo wrote:It also makes hardly any sense to contrast memorization and micrododging, since dodging can also be part of memorization itself. Knowing when and how to micrododge what part, is already memorization.
Yeah but then you have to actually perform that micrododge, which, depending on who you ask, isn't trivial to execute consistently enough to see yourself to the end. There could be a game that requires you to memorize a bunch of frame-perfect timing and pixel-perfect positioning, which would make it dependent on memorization, but not "memory-based" in the sense of what OP is looking for ("Games that are hard at first but become easy once you've memorized it").
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Plasmo »

Shepardus wrote:
Plasmo wrote:It also makes hardly any sense to contrast memorization and micrododging, since dodging can also be part of memorization itself. Knowing when and how to micrododge what part, is already memorization.
Yeah but then you have to actually perform that micrododge, which, depending on who you ask, isn't trivial to execute consistently enough to see yourself to the end. There could be a game that requires you to memorize a bunch of frame-perfect timing and pixel-perfect positioning, which would make it dependent on memorization, but not "memory-based" in the sense of what OP is looking for ("Games that are hard at first but become easy once you've memorized it").
Dodging bullets just becomes as easy as dodging obstacles. But you are right in the sense that memorization itself obviously is not enough. You have to execute the parts based on your memorization. The game won't play itself. I thought that this would be clear though. It's not enough if you have memorized all parts of e.g. a Psikyo game, you actually have to execute all parts as well. And it's not easy.

But execution of memorized parts and execution of RNG parts feels very differently.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Shepardus »

Plasmo wrote:Dodging bullets just becomes as easy as dodging obstacles.
Yeah, that's true. At the end of the day they're all just glorified hitboxes flying around. I think the important part of what OP was asking is "easy once you've memorized it," which I personally don't consider CAVE games to be despite the amount of memorization involved in playing one (maybe I just suck, I dunno). I was also hesitant to include Psikyo in my initial post for the same reason - especially when you get to the second loops of those, or if you're trying to time those medal pickups, then accurate and consistent timing becomes the biggest bottleneck, at least for me.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Plasmo »

Shepardus wrote:
Plasmo wrote:Dodging bullets just becomes as easy as dodging obstacles.
Yeah, that's true. At the end of the day they're all just glorified hitboxes flying around. I think the important part of what OP was asking is "easy once you've memorized it," which I personally don't consider CAVE games to be despite the amount of memorization involved in playing one (maybe I just suck, I dunno). I was also hesitant to include Psikyo in my initial post for the same reason - especially when you get to the second loops of those, or if you're trying to time those medal pickups, then accurate and consistent timing becomes the biggest bottleneck, at least for me.
"easy once you've memorized it" - This holds very true for me when I play CAVE games for the first time. It might be subjective of course, but it's hard to imagine how CAVE games cannot become very easy, once you know the stage layouts, enemy placements and bullet patterns. The "only" difficulty remaining is execution. But that's always how it is.

And I am strictly referring to survival here, so I didn't even think of e.g. Psikyo medalling, which is not part of memo obviously.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Voxbox »

Interesting insights on Cave memorizing, but while I can 1CC R-Type I have a really hard time getting consistent results in Cave games, so I'd still say the required skillset is far from "mainly memory based". They don't have the same feel of being built around series of distinct encounters, and micro dodging still makes or breaks it in the end.

But perhaps it's just too hard to memorize for me? Memorizing Cave stages seems to be mainly for the sake of scoring, which relies on things like micro timing and positioning, which when I try to copy a superplay I barely understand, tends to completely fail and become chaos. In R-Type each encounter is like a puzzle that you have to come up with a solution to, and then you can proceed. Generally, if you don't have the understanding, you won't progress, even on the early stages.

(Also I *have* 1CC'd a couple of Raizing games, which I think are way more memory based, or at least less about micro dodging, than Cave)
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Klabauter8 »

Plasmo wrote:CAVE games and R-Type are both primarily based on memorization.
Of course they are, but the person asked for games which are hard at first, but become easy onced you memorized them. He expressed himself a bit clumsy, but I still find it obvious what he meant. I don't know what Cave games you played, but the ones I played require very precise dodging, with ridiculous endbosses and whatnot. This is obviously not what the person was asking for. He asked for puzzle-like games, not bullet hell.

Strania would be another good example for this. Also not a lot about dodging precision, but rather just memorizing where to use which weapon.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Plasmo »

Klabauter8 wrote:He asked for puzzle-like games, not bullet hell.
CAVE bullet hell is essentially puzzle. What's the difference in figuring out Futari Ultra bullet patterns on the one hand and Ikaruga chains on the other?

But anyway, I can understand that this topic isn't really meant to discuss these things. The opening poster will soon find out what he can memorize more easily, bullet patterns or environmental hazards. As for myself, I don't see too much of a difference between those two. And I am very bad at dodging.

RNG bullet dodging as a skill is very rarely required in most games/developers mentioned here though. If you are bad at dodging bullets ad-lib, just memorize them. That's what I always do and I have cleared a variety of games.

My main point here is: A lot of bullets does not necessarily mean that you ever have to actively dodge them. It can be exactly the same as R-Type. And this might be relevant for the opening poster.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Klabauter8 »

Plasmo wrote:CAVE bullet hell is essentially puzzle. What's the difference in figuring out Futari Ultra bullet patterns on the one hand and Ikaruga chains on the other?
The difference is that first the one is purely for survival, while the other is optional score play. And secondly in games like R-Type or Ikaruga, you often don't have that many options. Sometimes there is only a single solution to the puzzle, while in Cave games it is much more twitch based with umpteens of solutions. This makes games like Ikaruga harder at first, but easier once you memorized them. Ikaruga really only becomes difficult to execute if you go for very good scores, and even then, if you fail to execute, it mostly just means that you lose the chain. While in Cave games even survival play already requires very good precision, especially since they often have try-hard endbosses which become nothing but resource dumps.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by LordHypnos »

I'd actually say R-Type (at least the original) is not really that much of a memorizer. The majority of the first loop can be dodged on reaction, and almost everything is well telegraphed. That's not to say that it's feasible to 1cc on your first try, of course (what game is?), but just less memorizey than its reputation. A few stages have some obstacles that must be memorized to get through, though (especially stage 6), and overall the game is relatively easy to memorize (not sure why this is. Just very memorable obstacles, I guess) and not too hard to execute. The main obstacle is that you really can't make a mistake because it's impossible to recover (or at least you'd probably need to learn how to do every part of the game naked, which would take forever. A lot easier to just 1LC).

I'd strongly recommend, though. It's a lot of fun, and is probably one of the easiest arcade 1-ALLs.

EDIT: I guess the bosses probably all require memorization. I don't think I got through any of them before learning the quick kill strats / safe spots.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by glide »

CAVE games are pretty much purely skill based and I never cared for Cave anyway or bullet hells in general. Batsugun is the only bullet hell I like.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Klabauter8 »

glide wrote:CAVE games are pretty much purely skill based and I never cared for Cave anyway or bullet hells in general. Batsugun is the only bullet hell I like.
Cave games are also just about memorization mainly (which is also a skill btw), like all shooting games, but they also require decent dodging precision and can be often quite unbalanced, unpolished coin munchers.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Despatche »

Basically all of them. Memorization is skill.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by glide »

I don't think memorization is much of a skill, for example if there's a safe spot where you need to be to avoid a wave of bullets (or enemies), once you know it you get through easily. Or once you know the pattern of a boss' attacks you can beat it easily.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Shepardus »

So I take it you've never forgotten anything in your life?
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by glide »

Usually when you're stuck at some place in a game you don't wait until you've forgotten about it to try again.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Klabauter8 »

glide wrote:I don't think memorization is much of a skill
Just because you only played easy games which were easy to learn (memorize), does not mean memorization is not a skill lol
It takes muscle memory to execute pretty much all difficult acts. And some people learn much faster than others partly because they can better memorize stuff.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by glide »

Klabauter8 wrote:
glide wrote:I don't think memorization is much of a skill
Just because you only played easy games which were easy to learn (memorize), does not mean memorization is not a skill lol
It takes muscle memory to execute pretty much all difficult acts. And some people learn much faster than others partly because they can better memorize stuff.
You can't compare executing complex movements with memorizing a game.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Klabauter8 »

glide wrote:You can't compare executing complex movements with memorizing a game.
Of course I can. If something is difficult to execute, then it takes lots of memorization to learn. No matter if it's a video game, painting, playing sports, or whatever.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Despatche »

glide wrote:You can't compare executing complex movements with memorizing a game.
Fighting game players and speedrunners will disagree.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by Shepardus »

I suggest you actually try some of the games people have suggested. Even if you're not into bullet hell there's still plenty to keep you busy that's already been suggested.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by glide »

Despatche wrote:
glide wrote:You can't compare executing complex movements with memorizing a game.
Fighting game players and speedrunners will disagree.
You know what that's a good point. I hadn't thought of speedrunning, which is obviously a skill. Silly me.
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Re: Memory based shmups

Post by To Far Away Times »

I love a good memorizer. R-Type in particular is really great at this. There's something about the encounter design that is so memorable. It's a showcase of world class level design.

Some other great memorizers would be Thunderforce III/IV and Xexex.
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