I wish modern bullet hell had more focused weapon spreads.

[Special World]

It seems like new games come out all the time where your ship just blankets the entire screen in bullets, and it completely eradicates like 1/3 of the complexity of these games. Players' bullet spread just got bigger and bigger and bigger with each game, until there was almost no difference between ships. It's like playing Final Fantasy 7 and you can just rearrange your materia and so every character is the exact same.

Props to every new game that has a differentiated weapon system. Especially Qute, who take great pains to make sure their ships feel uniquely designed. There are a lot of great games with blanket fire, but they're great *in spite* of that fact. Cave just went off the rails with it and everyone followed suit. I don't need extensive powerup systems, but I really wish ship armaments didn't feel swapped in. Shmups 101: Before anything else, I should love the fucking ship.

[Shepardus]

Dodonpachi still has Type A (and all ships' lasers, really) and Crimzon Clover: World Ignition has Type III. Touhou series has Marisa. Don't forget that Raiden and all its clones have spread guns that blanket the entire screen - this is a very old trend. People like feeling powerful, and killing everything on the screen is one tried and true way of feeling powerful. People love double break mode in Crimzon Clover, and that's the epitome of "screen-filling shot." Homing shots, which effectively cover the whole screen, are also popular in many games. Saves people from much of the nebulous frustration of knowing where enemies are going to spawn, letting them focus on the dodging instead, which is what plenty of people see as the point of the genre. "Complexity" isn't what they're there for, and eliminating that complexity they don't want is actually a good thing to them.

[Bananamatic]

CCWI also had gradius options on type II
SDOJ actually buffed the type A shot a ton which makes it even more viable than before and in DFKBL, C-Strong has the worst cancel properties by a long shot
in futari, abnormal palm actually has more range on the focus shot which is active only when locked on (else it doesn't even protect his side) and his regular shot gets more narrow the further you are
abnormal reco had inverted speeds and very unusual shot mechanics if you want something "different"

the wide shots have their disadvantages in pretty much every cave game, there's plenty of reasons to use the straight ones (and there's a straight shot in pretty much every cave game)
plenty of unique/weird stuff in a lot of cave games too outside of the DDP series

Especially Qute, who take great pains to make sure their ships feel uniquely designed.

you mean eschatos with a single ship that has a setup more vanilla than the front page of pornhub?

[M.Knight]

I think that even though having player shots that are too narrow can make for a frustrating experience, it encourages moving around to shoot down enemies. With a very wide shot, you can stand still in the middle and hit everything on screen.

Of course, clever bullet patterns can force the player to move around and macro-dodge a lot regardless of the shot width, but narrower shots enforce that. It also depends on the game though.
Eschatos's shot types may not be the most original out there, but each one has a purpose and you do move around to destroy the enemy waves. Besides, the forward shot still feels powerful despite its narrow range.

[ardiel]

Wide shot can be pretty fun, but nothing is more annoying in games where you chain collect medals because the wide shot makes them drop all over the place instead of in neat lines.

[chum]

I love unique weapons like cameras, ice, shikigami, and fucking dragons

don't see the problem. try broadening your horizons?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

abnormal reco had inverted speeds and very unusual shot mechanics if you want something "different"

If you pointblank with Abnormal Reco or Black Label Reco using the rapid shot, it gets a massive damage boost (different hitting/explosion animation) doing almost as much as Abnormal Palm's laser.

A lot of shmups have spreads that look like they fill the screen, but a lot of the spreadfire is showy and only for popcorn enemies. It won't actually do much damage to the occasional large enemies, so you still need to get in front for them (or use the laser). The same applies to a lot of non-Cave/bullet hell games too, being in front of enemies with a spreadshot is super important for maximizing damage. There's a lot of games that have wide shots in them where the straight/thin shot types are way more effective, too.

[Squire Grooktook]

Especially Qute, who take great pains to make sure their ships feel uniquely designed.

you mean eschatos with a single ship that has a setup more vanilla than the front page of pornhub?

The long range rapid straight shot / slower short ranged wide shot / shield trinity is straight forward in theory but its execution and usage definitely gives the game a unique personality. Ginga Force has even quirkier set ups too.

[Special World]

So, I would absolutely agree that the simplicity of shmups is one of their strengths. But okay, so we start with classic shooters as a benchmark. They have environmental hazards, enemy collision, and focused shots. Well, bullet hells take out environmental collision, mostly*. Aaaaaaand except for flying enemies, there's mostly not a *ton* of enemy collision. And then you make the shots a ridiculous spread and that's reducing the player considerations even further. It gets to a point where shooting just feels arbitrary, where you might as well just have auto-shot and not even waste my time with a shot button.

If you feel yourself getting defensive, bear in mind that I own all of Cave's 360 games and I love them all except DFK (and Guwange, but that's because the port's kind of a pain in the ass.) I'd say they're either my first or second favorite shmup developer, sharing that spotlight with Qute. I just see shmups now with bullets that fill the whole screen, and I've been there way too long. The trend has gone on very long and it's feeling sort of tired. It feels kind of bland now, like "Ah, you didn't really want to think about an alternative." Kind of like how colored powerup switching felt in the '90s. Something like double break, where it's a special mode, is totally fine. Obviously that's a player power grab. But the shot doesn't have to be crazy the whole game through--In my opinion.

Gonna have to completely disagree with Eschatos' ship being vanilla, it's actually pretty radical in terms of playstyle. Haven't played a ship like it outside of Qute's games, and they radically reinvented it for Ginga Force.

*Yes, I understand that the bullets act as environment collision. But it looks different and it feels different. It's not the same thing.

[Shepardus]

I think screen-filling bullet patterns and shot types are often a product of uninspired design processes but aren't bad things themselves. Replacing them with straight shots would in many cases make the game harder but not more fun if you ask me. Sometimes they're the only things keeping the game together. The true problem runs a lot deeper.

Even in games where I always want to shoot, having the game automatically fire still feels weird to me for some reason, except in smartphone shmups (which feel uncomfortable regardless). I need something to press with my left hand, even if it's completely mindless!

[Squire Grooktook]

Charge attacks are truth.



It's like a rhythim game but with HYPER VIOLENCE SHOOTING

[Bananamatic]

the last time cave put in environmental hazards people had a collective meltdown about how unfair and stupid laser wheels are

And then you make the shots a ridiculous spread and that's reducing the player considerations even further.

almost all the games give you an option of not using one and you picked the "braindead" shot type yourself

It gets to a point where shooting just feels arbitrary, where you might as well just have auto-shot and not even waste my time with a shot button.

leaving enemies alive to make chaining possible in the first place, not activating revenge bullets, delaying kills for a better cancel, delaying shooting until you get in point blank range to generate more gauge/multiplier/whatever
why the hell would I want to not shoot all the time again?

If you feel yourself getting defensive, bear in mind that I own all of Cave's 360 games and I love them all except DFK (and Guwange, but that's because the port's kind of a pain in the ass.)

good, now remove the shrinkwrap and actually play them

[Squire Grooktook]

If you feel yourself getting defensive, bear in mind that I own all of Cave's 360 games and I love them all except DFK (and Guwange, but that's because the port's kind of a pain in the ass.)

good, now remove the shrinkwrap and actually play them

He's written too many blog posts about putting countless hours into Mushi. He's not even specifically condemning Cave here, but just the general "play it safe" approach to design in the modern market. Calm your tits.

I definitely agree to an extent. It's a subtle thing. As Chum says there are many innovative and "different" feeling games, but every one of those, there's several ultra formulaic titles. I don't think the genre is in trouble or anything, but I think developers should be encouraged to think outside the box and try different things. Even if it results in some questionable titles, failure is the first step to successful innovation.

I actually have more to say specifically about this subject from my own experimentation with player shot types, but I don't wanna do it in the middle of the defensive streak.

[Shepardus]

I definitely agree to an extent. It's a subtle thing. As Chum says there are many innovative and "different" feeling games, but every one of those, there's several ultra formulaic titles.

To be fair, that's true of pretty much anything. To me, the real question is whether that formula is actually effective or if people just cling to it because it's what they know and are too focused on making their game a shmup to make it great.

[Squire Grooktook]

It comes and goes. There are periods of innovation and periods of stagnation. Sturgeon's Law is generally true, it's just that the ratio can tend to flucuate between "91% of everything is crap" and "89% is crap". We want to keep it at 89 if possible.

[Despatche]

I'm not sure this bizarre trend actually exists, and I'm not sure it's being described accurately. The big examples are specific CAVE games, and the deleterious design implied does not actually occur. I think we all also understand that the mere presence of a narrow or screen-filling shot type itself has nothing to do with complexity, as well as that there are many different kinds of "screen-filling" shot types.

The first half of this thread seems to be people recognizing all of this, but the second half seems to just be assuming the claim to be true whether or not it actually is... I guess to be nice to a long-standing member, or just because people are bored? There is no need for either. I think I like that first half better.

[Sumez]

The trend has gone on very long and it's feeling sort of tired. It feels kind of bland now

Don't worry, though. Cave's already done making real shooters at this point, so it looks like you get what you're asking for

[qmish]

I like when, like in DeltaZeal etc., you wanna point blank with spreadshot.

[Zen]

Oh, Jesus. I,m probably going to regret this
Firstly; there is room for every style, and design. I'm all for choice. The concern seems to be, that one style lacks complexity and is stifling creativity?
Any style that lowers complexity in one way, can also be used to ramp it up in others. This is obvious, no? Surely we should not concern ourselves with the ingredients of a dish but instead with the final flavour?
And how can a style of play hamper creativity re. new game design? Do designers really feel so compelled to mimic this inferior deign mechanic? Perhaps many, like those buying these games, actually like this style of play?
Perhaps the reason for this is because it is not as poor a game style as you feel it is?
This "concern" for one perceived style as dominantly influential and destructive is strangely familiar Is this critical theory as applied to shmups, specifically that oppressive Cave

How about leaving Danmaku as just, well, Danmaku? example; keep your obstacles out of my fucking Bullet Hell. This is not a driving game. Nor is it solely a memory test for that matter.
Is it not telling that shmup fans in general, do not lament the supposed detrimental design choices of new shmups, as much as the "Cave passive aggressives" do the negative impact of Cave on the genre?
(Also, while I'm standing here on my lawn shouting at you to get off its pristine manicure, I would also like to request that all my ships be ships and that they all have a big fucking swastika on their arse! How do you like them apples )

I find the entire question rather forced, to be frank. There is an objective/subjective fuckery here that is, again, "familiar". Further, it comes across as Brainstorming for a an article on what (I feel) is a non existent problem.

The signature of one of our fellow members, that I see here often goes something like "the future of shmups is their past". Is it so very hard to accept that certain styles within the genre have already reached their apex and should just be left alone in dignified greatness?

[Squire Grooktook]

keep your obstacles out of my fucking Bullet Hell.

No.

You will be force fed environmental hazards until you learn to like them.

Resistance is futile.

Is it so very hard to accept that certain styles within the genre have already reached their apex and should just be left alone in dignified greatness?

No, it's fine. There's nothing wrong with the style that Cave perfected*. But at the same time, there is room for new styles to be developed as well. One of the beauty's of the genre is its absolute simplicity and simultaneously infinite room for variation.

*I personally don't like it too much, though. But that's just personal taste.

[Special World]

Hmmm, so I guess I'll point out a couple of different Cave games and how I feel about them. I actually think the criticism I am leveling is much larger than Cave, but I am most familiar with Cave in terms of bullet hell. There are a number of doujins like this as well. Really, I suppose there's just a sense of undifferentiated-ness that brings the genre down somewhat. Instead of "focused versus not focused," perhaps it would be more correct to say "uniquely designed versus standardized."

Mushi Futari: Mushi Futari Black is definitely my favorite Cave game. But I will say that Futari Black has *blander* ships than vanilla Futari. Abnormal Reco especially is a great inversion of typical shmup mechanics, in that the focus shot is what allows you to move fast as hell. So it's very different in feel than Normal Reco and Black Label Reco, which are quite standard.

Deathsmiles: Here the characters feel different, but it's mostly just annoying. The weapons feel somewhat different, but the main difference in feel is mostly "Do I press this button or this button first to launch my charge attack forward?" Not a positive method of differentiation.

Saidaioujou: You pick focused ship or you pick the other two spread ships. Differences between B and C type are marginal in terms of play feel, imo.

Compare that to Eschatos or Judgement Silversword. The ship is the game. Compare that to Mars Matrix. The ship is the game. Compare that to Gunbird 2, where the ships *aren't* the game, but they're cool and quirky and feel distinct. In a lot of bullet hells, the ship may as well be called Bullet Hell Ship. For Cave to do what they do--whatever. They made the genre. For newer games, I would appreciate not playing Bullet Hell Ship.

[Special World]

Also I'm gonna throw in that bullet hell BULLETS could stand a little bit of differentiation, too. Really love Daioujou's Buncha-Crunch 2nd boss bullets. Really love Ketsui's do-whatever-the-fuck patterns. Really love it when Deathsmiles' bullets float across the screen like ashes. Eschatos has those great pill-bullets and those horrible targeting shots, and Ginga Force is like a bullet type extravaganza.

More bullet types, please.

[Squire Grooktook]

Dangun Feveron and Guwange are my favorite Cave games, and I highly recommend them if you're looking for something a little different and characterful. They can be difficult to get into, but there's noting out there quite like them.

*edit* Oh and give Hellsinker a try if you haven't already.

[Special World]

Waiting on ShotTrigger Dangun Guwange is good but the 360 port is kind of annoying. Hellsinker I have dabbled in. I think it's really cool but I never really "got" it.

[trap15]

If you think there's no variety in shot types in the genre, you haven't played nearly enough. I'm 99% your criticism is coming from a lack of experience.

[Special World]

If you think there's no variety in shot types in the genre, you haven't played nearly enough. I'm 99% your criticism is coming from a lack of experience.

Then recommend me some of your favorites.

[Despatche]

I can do some of that.

The community has always obsessed over CAVE as "the face of the genre", and so we get strange ideas like "modern bullet hell" (CAVE) being dominated by wide-range shot types (something CAVE likes to do as part of their style) even though there's a pretty healthy amount of examples of this not happening in this "modern bullet hell" (CAVE): pretty much everything before DOJ, Ketsui type B, Galuda, Ibara and PinkSweets, Mushi Futari (not BL), Deathsmiles, MMP, I think Akai Katana, etc. Pretty much everything that isn't DOJ, DFK, SDOJ, and very certain shot types (that aren't necessarily better) in certain games.

Even then, when I think of shmups, I don't just think of CAVE like so many people seem to, and I never have. Even when CAVE was actually making games, there were tons of other great titles out there waiting to be played. So, let me list just some of the great things that don't "overwhelmingly" focus on screen clearing shots that we've seen in the last decade or so: the old Yagawa trilogy, Caladrius and Raiden V, Psyvariar, Shikigami no Shiro, HellSinker, Mecha Ritz, Hydorah, Satazius, Jamestown, Alltynex Second, Blue Revolver, Ether Vapor and Astebreed, Revolver360, Zenodyne and Fire Arrow Plus, Dariusburst, Eschatos and Ginga Force, the Gundemonium series and its relatives, and of course I could mention Touhou all day.

Someone will probably try to claim most of those aren't "modern bullet hell". Actually, the vast majority of them are, but what they are not is CAVE. People think pricegouging cardboard boxes because they have the CAVE logo on them is just some joke, and not the dark reality we live in. Honestly, people would be better of getting mad at typical Raiden for basically requiring the red weapon for most of the game. I would also argue that "modern" "bullet hell" is redundant, seeing as people still want the subgenre to be so fundamentally tied to the companies and individuals that created it.

[trap15]

Basically that ^

[Shepardus]

Also I'm gonna throw in that bullet hell BULLETS could stand a little bit of differentiation, too. Really love Daioujou's Buncha-Crunch 2nd boss bullets. Really love Ketsui's do-whatever-the-fuck patterns. Really love it when Deathsmiles' bullets float across the screen like ashes. Eschatos has those great pill-bullets and those horrible targeting shots, and Ginga Force is like a bullet type extravaganza.

More bullet types, please.

Touhou bosses say hi. Radiant Silvergun bosses too, or they would if they had mouths to speak with. Armed Police Batrider too, especially Envy.

I also personally like Progear's patterns, which have a style involving tight groups of bullets separated by wide gaps. The groups kind of act as individual large bullets, though they can also stretch and expand in various ways. This of course plays well with how the cancelling system works, but beyond that I just find it entertaining to dodge.

I'm surprised you like DOJ's second boss, to me that boss is the least interesting in the game. That bullet type you speak of has a distinct sprite but the attack it's used in is yet another "spam random chaos and hope the player dies" attack.

If anything, thanks to Touhou enemy bullet varieties have increased in the past decade. It's really just Mushihimesama et al.'s purple fetish that suggests the opposite. If anything's declined, it's threats that aren't represented by brightly colored abstract shapes, since the bullet hell thing to do seems to be to represent everything as bullets if it's at all possible, such as the jets of flame at the end of the volcano stage in Deathsmiles.

[Squire Grooktook]

Okay, I'm going to post some general thoughts on the concept of shmup shooting that have been on my mind for a while. They may or may not be relevant to the last few posts


When you get down to it. Basic shooting is actually the most one dimensional and automatic side of STG's.

Shooting in other genres sometimes requires skills of timing and aim. You generally do not need either in shmups. Your shots are rapid enough that aligning your x location with that of the enemy, even for a moment, is enough to successfully hit them even if you are wantonly mashing the button. These skills are actually present in old-stuff like Space Invaders and Galaga, due to the low speed of shots and more importantly, the extremely low rate of fire. You actually cannot quite mash and do need to aim and position shots in order to be optimal in this style of game. Shot width is something of a red herring compared to shot rate when it comes to shooting involvement.

The fact of the matter is, the aversion of most stg players to "pea shooters" obsoletes the idea of timing and aiming normal shots. Even shot rates that are relatively restrained (say, some old toaplan stuff) compared to the monstrous bullet waterfalls of later Cave titles make it really impossible to miss if you cross paths with an enemy. With the exception of some very rare stuff (ie Gradius default shot being 2 bullets on screen at once, and that status doesn't last for long), basic shmup shots are a matter of rudimentary positioning and nothing else.

Where this changes is in the secondary shooting mechanic you add to your game. If zakos are instantly annihilated by mashing the button whilst crossing the same x-axis, than adding a secondary weapon for use against tankier enemies, thicker clusters of zakos, defending and turning enemy shots to your advantage, more obscure combat angles, and other diverse scenarios is how you add some measure of aiming and timing to the basic offensive action of shooting down enemies.

A basic example is the humble charge shot. By allowing you to do a single, focused strike at the cost of a few frames of charge, you can have the best of both worlds. Rapid, powerful feeling main shot for mowing down zakos, and a timing/aim intensive single strike for powerful and tanky enemies. But this is far from the only way of adding something extra to your shooting. R-Type Pods, Gradius Options, X-Multiply Tentacles, melee mechanics, Dragon Shoot, Rayforce Lock, etc. are all examples. Even Cave does it well with the shot/laser dichotomy adding some rhythm to your button pressing when alternating between destroying popcorn and beefier targets.

Of course, there are also scoring mechanics that play into this, but those exists on the meta level of the game which I'm not focusing on here.

Anyway, for some examples of games that do secondary weapon systems very well in terms of adding extra depth to the basic shooting at enemies, here are a few favored examples for OP off the top of my head:

Spoiler

Akashicverse
Alltynex Second
Axelay
Biometal
Blue Revolver
Caladrius
Dangun Feveron
Darius Burst Another Chronicle
Dragon Blaze
Dragon Breed
Eden's Aegis
Einhander
Eschatos
Ether Vapor Remastered
Fairy Wars
Forgotten Worlds
Hellsinker
Gemini Wing
Ginga Force
Gradius
Gun.Smoke
Guwange
Ikaruga
Image Fight
Kamui
Kikai Kakai Nazo no something something / I only remember us name Pocky and Rocky
Mars Matrix
Raiden Fighters
Radiant Silvergun
Recca
Sengoku Blade / Tengai
Sidearms
Shoot The Bullet
Soukyugurentai
Tumiki Fighters
Twinkle Tale
Sora
Strania: The Stella Machina
Valkyrius Prime
Rayforce
R-Type
X-Multiply

I'm surprised you like DOJ's second boss, to me that boss is the least interesting in the game. That bullet type you speak of has a distinct sprite but the attack it's used in is yet another "spam random chaos and hope the player dies" attack.

Random sprays are fun though. We could all use more of them in our lives.