480i widescreen CRT for Wii & GC?

[andykara2003]

Hi, I'm thinking about getting an SD CRT for widescreen Wii & GC games. 480p widescreen CRTs are rare here in the UK so I'm (maybe) willing to put up with 480i. My thinking is that if the screen is on the smaller side (28"-30"), it should mitigate the 480i flicker and also the horrible stretched anamorphic widescreen effect a little.. Most if not all the widescreens here are 100Hz. 100Hz is to be avoided for 240p of course, but I'm wondering if it affects 480i in the same negative way?

The thinking is that these widescreens occasionally come up brand new as new old stock and might provide a reasonably decent image for 480i.

Cheers.

P.S. I'd be interested if anyone who has experience with 480i on a widescreen CRT strongly dislikes the 480i image for these games - which might prompt me to wait until I have a powerful enough PC to emulate the few widescreen 480p games I would play.

[atheistgod1999]

Didn't you just ask this?

[Ikaruga11]

480i and anamorphic widescreen is the worst possible combination for GameCube and Wii. If you have component cables for either the GameCube and/or Wii, I'd suggest playing them both in 480p 4:3. Much sharper and clearer.

[Lawfer]

The best is the following:

GameCube sharpest quality: DOL-001 with Official Component Cables, keep it 4:3 and anyways save for a few exceptions GameCube games can only do 4:3, with 480p output for the game that supports it (The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Baten Kaitos, Baten Kaitos Origins, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance etc) and 480i for the games that don't (Resident Evil, Resident Evil 2, Resident Evil 3, Resident Evil Code Veronica X, Killer7, Skies of Arcadia Legends and so on). The GameCube is only capable of outputting Component through it's digital output, you could mod your component cable to output in RGB, but it's worthless because it will just take the native component output of the GameCube and convert it to RGB.


Wii:

Sharpest quality: RVL-101 with Euroscart, 4:3 with 480i output to doge the blur filter that is purposefully introduced by the Wii when outputting in 480p mode.

Blurrier quality but still good enough: RVL-101 with Component Cables, 4:3 with 480p output.

Technically the best quality you could have gotten is to play Wii games on the Wii U with HDMI output, you would have gotten native digital RGB output whiteout having to deal with the blur filter of the Wii when outputting in 480p mode. Problem is the Wii U can only output in 720p or 1080p when playing Wii games on it through HDMI and worse, it converts these 4:3 games into 16:9. Otherwise if the Wii U could let you play Wii games through HDMI output in their original 720x480 4:3 and 480p mode it would have been the ideal solution.

P.S. I'd be interested if anyone who has experience with 480i on a widescreen CRT strongly dislikes the 480i image for these games - which might prompt me to wait until I have a powerful enough PC to emulate the few widescreen 480p games I would play.

Widescreen and 480p don't mesh well, because you are taking a 720x480 4:3 picture and stretching it. GameCube and Wii are both 4:3 720x480 consoles and games are designed with said resolution and aspect ratio. SOME (very few) Wii games were designed around a widescreen "look" such as The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Xenoblade Chronicles, Arc Rise Fantasia etc, so these games might look better in Widescreen mode than others, but you are still taking a 720x480 picture and stretching it.

[Ikaruga11]

to doge the blur filter that is purposefully introduced by the Wii when outputting in 480p mode.

Still no evidence of this existing. Yes, I've already seen the oscilloscope report and that only shows that the GameCube has a sharper video output than the Wii, which could be due to the higher quality DAC and/or having a digital port. It doesn't show anything about a blur filter being implemented exclusively to 480p.

Technically the best quality you could have gotten is to play Wii games on the Wii U with HDMI output, you would have gotten native digital RGB output

Wii U's Wii Mode isn't very good. It outputs in Limited RGB like the rest of the Wii U console, and shaves off part of the image on each side.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p1208264

Wii U Wii Mode is a disaster.

1. 16 pixels is cut on each sides, in destination space. This result in 480p having the most overscan and 1080p the least. There is no 1:1 mapping.
2. There's a disagreement between left and center chroma sampling location. This result in a slight chroma shift.
3. There's no conversion between Rec. 601 and Rec. 709 Y'CbCr. This can result in wrong colors in HD and on the Wii U GamePad. This is further exacerbated by the smaller color gamut on the Wii U GamePad.

I believe vWii Mode is also affected by the Limited RGB (16-235) present on the Wii U, so Wii/WiiWare/Wii VC games won't have as much contrast or vibrant colors as on original Wii hardware, which uses Full RGB (0-255).

GC/Wii natively output Rec. 601 Y'CbCr.

Widescreen and 480p don't mesh well, because you are taking a 720x480 4:3 picture and stretching it. GameCube and Wii are both 4:3 720x480 consoles and games are designed with said resolution and aspect ratio. SOME (very few) Wii games were designed around a widescreen "look" such as The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Xenoblade Chronicles, Arc Rise Fantasia etc, so these games might look better in Widescreen mode than others, but you are still taking a 720x480 picture and stretching it.

You mean 640x480. The Wii outputs in 640x480

[Lawfer]

Still no evidence of this existing.

That's just how the console is made to operate, so it can't be modded out or anything.

Wii U's Wii Mode isn't very good. It outputs in Limited RGB like the rest of the Wii U console, and shaves off part of the image on each side.

Yeah I already covered the reasons why playing Wii games on Wii U is not a good option due to a variety of issues in my first post.

You mean 640x480. The Wii outputs in 640x480

This is not a computer nor an FM Towns Marty, the Wii is 720x480 just like the GameCube.

[Ikaruga11]

Still no evidence of this existing.

That's just how the console is made to operate, so it can't be modded out or anything.

...That...doesn't prove anything....

[Lawfer]

Still no evidence of this existing.

That's just how the console is made to operate, so it can't be modded out or anything.

...That...doesn't prove anything....

I am not certain how someone else is supposed to "prove" to you how the Wii output is blurrier/foggier/fuzzier in 480p than in 480i? Either call Nintendo Japan to ask them why the Wii 480p is blurry or maybe get a BVM-D20 and try it yourself by switching between 480i and 480p? Like I said in another thread it will be quite noticeable on Broadcast monitor, because if you try this on an HDTV it will be blurry either way.

[ZellSF]

That's just how the console is made to operate, so it can't be modded out or anything.

...That...doesn't prove anything....

I am not certain how someone else is supposed to "prove" to you how the Wii output is blurrier/foggier/fuzzier in 480p than in 480i? Either call Nintendo Japan to ask them why the Wii 480p is blurry or maybe get a BVM-D20 and try it yourself by switching between 480i and 480p? Like I said in another thread it will be quite noticeable on Broadcast monitor, because if you try this on an HDTV it will be blurry either way.

When you seem to somehow be the only person who have noticed this, it's really up to you to prove it or stop saying it.

A good capture card should work fine.

[Lawfer]

When you seem to somehow be the only person who have noticed this, it's really up to you to prove it or stop saying it.

A good capture card should work fine.

I don't have any capture cards and the fact that the Wii's 480p output is blurrier than 480i is not exactly a state secret, you can google it yourself this has basically been known since the Wii was released.

The Wii wouldn't be the first to try this, DreamFactory introduced a blur in their game "The Bouncer" from 2000:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... lWNu7duUsw

IGN's Douglass C. Perry reviewed an import version of the game prior to its release in North America, and was disappointed with the lack of depth, but impressed by other aspects. He praised the graphics, character design and CGI cutscenes. He was also impressed with the "glowing" effect used throughout the game; "DreamFactory employs a Playboy-like filter that smoothes out every single bit on the screen. The effect is consistent throughout the game, and rids the PS2 of aliasing or flickering, but also provides a unique gloss that's never been used before with such success."

[ZellSF]

When you seem to somehow be the only person who have noticed this, it's really up to you to prove it or stop saying it.

A good capture card should work fine.

I don't have any capture cards and the fact that the Wii's 480p output is blurrier than 480i is not exactly a state secret, you can google it yourself this has basically been known since the Wii was released.

I did Google it. I did not find anything significant. There really isn't anything to support what you would claim, and I really would stop saying it until there is.

[ZellSF]

No clue why you bring up The Bouncer btw. It's either artistic intent (can't be system wide) or to combat interlace flickering (which would not apply to a 480p output).

[Ikaruga11]

the fact that the Wii's 480p output is blurrier than 480i

It's not a fact. It's an unfounded claim with absolutely no evidence to back it up. Stop pulling shit out of your ass.

you can google it yourself this has basically been known since the Wii was released.

I did. I went on Google and entered these exact three key phrases in quotation marks into the search bar: "Wii" "480p" "blurry"

All of the web results that pop up are posts of people trying to play the Wii through an analogue signal on a giant HDTV, even using 480i composite or third-party component cables in some cases. Of course it's going to look blurry.

The Wii wouldn't be the first to try this, Dream Factory introduced a blur in their game "The Bouncer" from 2000:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... lWNu7duUsw

IGN's Douglass C. Perry reviewed an import version of the game prior to its release in North America, and was disappointed with the lack of depth, but impressed by other aspects. He praised the graphics, character design and CGI cutscenes. He was also impressed with the "glowing" effect used throughout the game; "DreamFactory employs a Playboy-like filter that smoothes out every single bit on the screen. The effect is consistent throughout the game, and rids the PS2 of aliasing or flickering, but also provides a unique gloss that's never been used before with such success."

Blur added to games != Blur added to the system.

[Guspaz]

480p looks slightly sharper than 480i on the Wii to me...?

[FinalBaton]

Wait, there's such a thing as a 480i widescreen CRT?

Here in North America, all widescreen CRTs are 1080i, as far as I know. With maybe the rare 480p widescreen CRT here and there. This is because Sony started this tendency with their widescreen sets and every other maker followed suite


(maybe there's something I didn't understand in the original post's question)

[atheistgod1999]

Wait, there's such a thing as a 480i widescreen CRT?

Widescreen BVMs.

[Extrems]

Here's my own comparison from a while back: http://www.gc-forever.com/forums/viewto ... 864#p23577

Note 480i is normally blurrier due to deflickering.

[Brad251]

If you Google "Wii 480p blur filter" there are results that come up where people talk about this but I would not in any way say that it is conclusive. For example, it is talked about in these forum threads:

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/nintendo ... -26089168/

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic. ... 2&t=250788

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/nintendo ... -25449632/

Some people are having the experience that the Wii's 480p output looks blurry and some are not. I use Fosmon brand component cables that I got from Amazon and my Wii looks fine on my Samsung 1080p lcd. The menu looks fine and running games like Metroid Prime and F-Zero GX in 480p look very good on my lcd. With Wii games it is hit or miss. Super Mario Galaxy doesn't look that great in 480p on my TV but a lot of other games look good and that includes a lot of Wiiware that supports 480p. I know there is nothing wrong with my cables because I play my Wii over component on my Trinitron CRT and it looks great on that. If people are experiencing an especially blurry output on their Wii over 480p, the issue is most likely with how well the TV handles 480p over component. I have also run Wii games on a Wii U over HDMI on my lcd and they didn't look much better than on my Wii over component.

[ZellSF]

There's a lot of problems with those links and other links: trying on a HDTV (which might process 480i and 480p very differently), comparing CRT to HDTV, comparing composite to component, thinking better image quality is actually worse (more jaggies)... To say "just Google it" does not work here. Way too much noise.

Extrems' comparison is nice. I can't reliably tell the difference between the images though, I actually did think the 480i image looked sharper more often than the 480p image, but some things made me think the 480p image was sharper too. There's however noticeable ringing in the 480i image, so I wonder if the difference is just the capture card somehow sharpening 480i.

Definitely not an image quality difference that's worth 480i flicker and there's obviously not any intentional difference.

[Ikaruga11]

https://youtu.be/VV1xGZrrAYg
https://youtu.be/zXSZjfjjC2c

480p vs 480i

480p is infinitely sharper and clearer.

[Brad251]

https://youtu.be/VV1xGZrrAYg
https://youtu.be/zXSZjfjjC2c

480p vs 480i

480p is infinitely sharper and clearer.

To be fair, these videos are comparing 480p over component to 480i over composite. For the comparison to be fair, you would need to be comparing 480i over component to 480p over component.

[Ikaruga11]

https://youtu.be/VV1xGZrrAYg
https://youtu.be/zXSZjfjjC2c

480p vs 480i

480p is infinitely sharper and clearer.

To be fair, these videos are comparing 480p over component to 480i over composite. For the comparison to be fair, you would need to be comparing 480i over component to 480p over component.

True, but I can't find any videos on YouTube with direct capture that do this.

[AndehX]

The Wii definitely looks sharper in 480p than it does in 480i. I play F-Zero GX in 480p on the Wii, and its 100% sharper than 480i

[peterwright1234]

I've been playing xenoblade on my bvm d24 and 480i looks better to me. Better colors and sharpness. I am using 3rd party component cables though. Could that have anything to do with it? Btw was wondering what it would be like to deinterlace a 480i game to 480p on my bvm using a xrgb mini. Is that an option? does anyone know what the result would be?

[Lawfer]

I've been playing xenoblade on my bvm d24 and 480i looks better to me. Better colors and sharpness. I am using 3rd party component cables though. Could that have anything to do with it?

No, the reason is because the Wii 480p output is blurred while to 480i isn't, you are seeing this because you are playing it on a Sony BVM-D24, games that use filters can be seen on Broadcast monitors such as this one while it would go unnoticed by those playing on consumer grade TV or HDTV who wouldn't be able to see it. The colors are also degraded due to the blur which smears them, while they remain intact in 480i.

To get a slight idea of the difference between 480i and 480p on Wii, think of the World of Final Fantasy which has it's output blurred on the PS4 Pro:

Non-blurred:

http://gearnuke.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... 3uE3sy.jpg

Blurred:

http://gearnuke.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... ESRC7z.jpg

I have a broadcast monitor too and I only play Wii games in 480i.

[ZellSF]

I've been playing xenoblade on my bvm d24 and 480i looks better to me. Better colors and sharpness. I am using 3rd party component cables though. Could that have anything to do with it?

No, the reason is because the Wii 480p output is blurred while to 480i isn't, you are seeing this because you are playing it on a Sony BVM-D24, games that use filters can be seen on Broadcast monitors such as this one while it would go unnoticed by those playing on consumer grade TV or HDTV who wouldn't be able to see it. The colors are also degraded due to the blur which smears them, while they remain intact in 480i.

To get a slight idea of the difference between 480i and 480p on Wii, think of the World of Final Fantasy which has it's output blurred on the PS4 Pro:

Non-blurred:

http://gearnuke.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... 3uE3sy.jpg

Blurred:

http://gearnuke.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... ESRC7z.jpg

I have a broadcast monitor too and I only play Wii games in 480i.

You have got to be trolling at this point.

[Guspaz]

The output of that PS4 game is clearly not blurred at all, since the text is identical in both. It's obviously a buggy depth-of-field shader in the Pro version.

480i Wii is flickery and less detailed. No thanks.

[Ikaruga11]

I've been playing xenoblade on my bvm d24 and 480i looks better to me. Better colors and sharpness. I am using 3rd party component cables though. Could that have anything to do with it?

It very well could be, considering that 480p should be noticeably sharper than 480i while outputting the same YPbPr color space. A lot of people like the softer look of 480i since the GameCube and Wii are both low-res consoles and tend to have a lot of jaggies. Unlike digital signals, analogue signals can vary wildly in quality and performance. I only buy official first-party cables for everything and they work perfectly fine.

Btw was wondering what it would be like to deinterlace a 480i game to 480p on my bvm using a xrgb mini. Is that an option? does anyone know what the result would be?

The result would be added input lag from the de-interlacing process. Not sure on the picture quality though. I would just use Swiss though if it's for 480i-only games.

The output of that PS4 game is clearly not blurred at all, since the text is identical in both. It's obviously a buggy depth-of-field shader in the Pro version. 480i Wii is flickery and less detailed. No thanks.

This. It's not even a remotely similar comparison either.

You have got to be trolling at this point.

Either trolling and/or has no idea what he's talking about.

No, the reason is because the Wii 480p output is blurred while to 480i isn't. The colors are also degraded due to the blur which smears them, while they remain intact in 480i.

It's not though, and you have absolutely zero evidence to stand on. Nowhere on the entire internet has this ever been brought up or mentioned aside from you, while there is countless in-depth analysis and video comparisons which show that 480p is clearly sharper than 480i.

To get a slight idea of the difference between 480i and 480p on Wii, think of the World of Final Fantasy which has it's output blurred on the PS4 Pro:

Non-blurred:

http://gearnuke.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... 3uE3sy.jpg

Blurred:

http://gearnuke.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... ESRC7z.jpg

This isn't even a remotely similar comparison. What does 480p vs 480i on the same hardware have to do with 1080p vs 1080p on two systems with drastically different hardware? Absolutely nothing. And as Guspaz pointed out, it's an issue with the DoF shader.

I have a broadcast monitor too and I only play Wii games in 480i.

Wow. Congrats on gimping your output and not using the Wii to it's fullest potential, I guess?

[Lawfer]

As I said before, it bears repeating that filters would not be picked up on HDTVs nor Consumer Grade CRTs.

Comparing 480i and 480p outputs of the Wii on HDTV would not render the same result as it would comparing 480i to 480p on a broadcast monitor at all due to the fact that HDTVs can not process 480i pictures the same way that a CRT would, nor does a 480p look like on a native display as it does when scaled on an HDTV, also there is the fact that HDTV work according to their own native resolution restrictions, which does not yield the same resulting quality from a CRT for the simple reason that CRTs are not restricted by native resolutions.

The Wii is an 720x480 console that was meant to be used with CRTs, same as the PS2 and GameCube, however it was a console that was released when people were getting LCDs and Plasmas and the consoles from the competitions were HD which had HDMI outputs to accommodate for the new all in one connector present in modern TVs, so what happens is that the signal quality of the Wii is already degraded when outputting a 720x480 signal on an HDTV who's native resolution is anything but 720x480, it gets further degraded when stretching the picture from it's native 720x480 4:3 aspect ratio to fit within the aspect ratio of the modern displays standard which is 16:9, also there is the fact that video games native signal is RGB but RGB is disabled in NTSC Wiis and the best NTSC Wiis can work with are Component Cables which furtherly decreases the quality away from it's original look, RGB is 4 video signals vs 3 for component.

At this point, between the stretching, scaling and whatnot the picture is so muddled up that attempting any sort of proper comparison becomes worthless and the apparent or unapparent blurriness of 480p should be the least of your worries.

And yes 480p is obviously better, this is a fact, progressive is better than interlaced, especially on HDTVs because HDTV handle progressive better while they can not handle interlaced as well and if you have the option to go for a full 480p picture you should go for it, especially if you play on an HDTV. However my point wasn't to say that 480i was better than 480p, obviously it is not, for one 480p RGB on the PS2 is better than 480i RGB on the PS2, my point was that the 480p output on the Wii was relatively blurrier than the 480i output on the Wii and again using HDTV for such comparison would not allow you to detect this due to a variety of points I already touched upon.

[Guspaz]

Perhaps I should break out the 240p test suite and take photos of 240p/480i/480p output from a Wii to the OSSC to settle this. 480i and 480p on the OSSC have identical horizontal resolution, so softer output would be obvious even in 480i.