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 Post subject: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:46 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Most Framemeister discussion centers around older consoles, but, seeing as I have both, I was curious to see if Wii games look better sending a Wii through the Framemeister or through the Wii U's emulation. Both output at 1080p60, but the Wii goes through an analog component connection to the Framemeister whereas the Wii U stays digital the entire way. Theoretically, this should result in a better picture from the Wii U, but that, of course, depends on how well it scales.

First, some screenshots. This are taken from Resident Wiivil 4: http://imgur.com/a/6jhO2. I chose these screenshots because they contain text, so they should be better for comparing sharpness.

For the sake of purity, I am using the pixel purist GameCube profile for progressive scan content on the Framemeister. The only change is that I switched it to 16:9. The first and probably most obvious difference between the two is that the Framemeister, using the profile above, scales at a perfect 2x integer whereas the Wii U does not appear to do so (even though it still doesn't fill the entire screen). Of course it is nicer to have a fuller screen, but at the same time, it seems to me that the Framemeister is giving us the sharper picture. Note that I do not have any sharpening on from the Framemeister. However, the colors are pretty distinctly different, the Framemeister having a redder tone to it.

Now in motion: https://youtu.be/df3raVmGefc.

Might be worthwhile to do another one of these tests using a more colorful game. Can give it a shot if there's any interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:05 pm 


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Since the Framemeister is known to have poor 480p handling (and poor component handling), and most TVs handle 480p quiet well, you may want to compare this to plugging the Wii directly into your TV via component cables. It could very well produce a better quality and lower latency image than the Framemeister.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:20 pm 


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Early screenshots showed the Wii U's upscaling adding a slight green push- has this been fixed with an update?


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:22 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
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Guspaz wrote:
Since the Framemeister is known to have poor 480p handling (and poor component handling), and most TVs handle 480p quiet well, you may want to compare this to plugging the Wii directly into your TV via component cables. It could very well produce a better quality and lower latency image than the Framemeister.


That may be, but it would be very difficult to get a picture or video of it and it would also be inconsistent from one TV to another. The goal here is to compare two absolutes rather than dealing with every possible variable.

bobrocks95 wrote:
Early screenshots showed the Wii U's upscaling adding a slight green push- has this been fixed with an update?


I am using the latest update for the Wii U, so it seems maybe not.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:32 pm 


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I'm not that invested in it, and I couldn't find the original post I was thinking about that showed off the discoloration, but this link may be useful: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155432008&postcount=7489

Of course test patterns would be the really useful thing to see, you never really know the conditions of another person's setup (is it their capture card's fault, what are their Framemeister settings, etc.)


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:51 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
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bobrocks95 wrote:
I'm not that invested in it, and I couldn't find the original post I was thinking about that showed off the discoloration, but this link may be useful: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=155432008&postcount=7489

Of course test patterns would be the really useful thing to see, you never really know the conditions of another person's setup (is it their capture card's fault, what are their Framemeister settings, etc.)


Oh, that looks more like a shifting of the green, not so much an actual tinting. I didn't notice any of that, so that may be fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:35 am 


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I don't know if I have the latest Wii U firmware (I'm using whatever shipped with bayonetta 2) but the scaling seems to have a few quirks.

GameCube games should probably appear sharper on the Wii U HDMI vs the Wii's component output. (similar to the GameCube's original component output which has usually been considered fairly clean)

original Wii titles however might only see marginal improvement, but would still probably look better through HDMI rather than component, digital foundry seems to suggest that you should always set the Wii U to the native output of the game you're playing. so for instance if you're playing a Wii U game, you should probably set video output to 720p as that's the internal resolution of most titles made for Wii U.

if you're playing original Wii or GameCube titles you should probably set the output to 480p, unless your display does a bad job processing 480p, then you might as well just output 1080p. the only problem you might run into when upscaling 480p games to 1080p is that the Wii U doesn't do integer scaling, so you might get a few resolution scaling artifacts ( but I haven't done in-depth testing on this). and then there's the color corrective issues 480p titles are output in RGB 4:2:2, for some reason setting the Wii U to anything higher (720p/1080p) outputs them in ycbcr 4:2:0. so you might get some loss of color resolution and see chroma up sampling errors ( depending on how your display handles that stuff)

I would say, compare how your Wii U output looks in all three resolutions on your television

and then test your Wii through the frame Meister with the sharpness setting of 0 and 1 (switch them back and forth to see which one you like), and then see which one you like best.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:07 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
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That's an interesting idea, though potentially more trouble than it's worth. Having to change settings on the Wii U every time I want to play a Wii game... Not fun. The TV wouldn't do integer scaling, either, so I'm not sure how much of an improvement that would be. But it would be interesting to set the Wii U to 480p and run it through the Framemeister for integer upscaling.

Side note, the Wii U does not play GameCube games.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:21 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
Side note, the Wii U does not play GameCube games.


It does with Nintendon't. That's largely a software restriction, since the Wii U has all the hardware that it needs to play Gamecube games, except that IIRC its optical drive can't physically handle the smaller discs.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:54 pm 


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I think the conclusion that the guys in the Neogaf thread came to was that Wii titles played on the original Wii hardware are better than WiiU's vWii mode. 480p on WiiU had some sort of filtering going on and 720p/1080p upscale wasn't too hot either but better than 480p.

I had that green push/Chroma shift on my WiiU and only came across a handful of others who had the same issue. Strangely enough my WiiU had to be repaired because of a failed firmware update and when I got my machine back I retested vWii games and noticed the green push/chroma shift had gone. Whilst I thought it would be a case of the Nintendo engineers re-flashing my console the receipt said hardware was changed. I asked Madao who was also seeing the problem and it seem despite being on latest firmware he still sees that problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:58 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
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Of course, now the issue is that all my Wii saves and VC purchases were transferred to the Wii U years ago, so I have no way to get them back to the Wii. Thanks, Nintendo.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:42 pm 



Joined: 07 Apr 2016
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Location: Ohio
I believe vWii Mode is also affected by the Limited RGB (16-235) present on the Wii U, so Wii/WiiWare/Wii VC games won't have as much contrast or vibrant colors as on original Wii hardware, which uses Full RGB (0-255).


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:24 pm 


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GeneraLight wrote:
I believe vWii Mode is also affected by the Limited RGB (16-235) present on the Wii U, so Wii/WiiWare/Wii VC games won't have as much contrast or vibrant colors as on original Wii hardware, which uses Full RGB (0-255).


There should not be a visible difference between full and limited if the display device setting is matching the source device setting.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:33 pm 


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Wii U Wii Mode is a disaster.

  1. 16 pixels is cut on each sides, in destination space. This result in 480p having the most overscan and 1080p the least. There is no 1:1 mapping.
  2. There's a disagreement between left and center chroma sampling location. This result in a slight chroma shift.
  3. There's no conversion between Rec. 601 and Rec. 709 Y'CbCr. This can result in wrong colors in HD and on the Wii U GamePad. This is further exacerbated by the smaller color gamut on the Wii U GamePad.

GeneraLight wrote:
I believe vWii Mode is also affected by the Limited RGB (16-235) present on the Wii U, so Wii/WiiWare/Wii VC games won't have as much contrast or vibrant colors as on original Wii hardware, which uses Full RGB (0-255).

GC/Wii natively output Rec. 601 Y'CbCr.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:02 pm 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
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Gunstar wrote:
I think the conclusion that the guys in the Neogaf thread came to was that Wii titles played on the original Wii hardware are better than WiiU's vWii mode. 480p on WiiU had some sort of filtering going on and 720p/1080p upscale wasn't too hot either but better than 480p.

I had that green push/Chroma shift on my WiiU and only came across a handful of others who had the same issue. Strangely enough my WiiU had to be repaired because of a failed firmware update and when I got my machine back I retested vWii games and noticed the green push/chroma shift had gone. Whilst I thought it would be a case of the Nintendo engineers re-flashing my console the receipt said hardware was changed. I asked Madao who was also seeing the problem and it seem despite being on latest firmware he still sees that problem.

I have the green shift problem I think. I was just comparing my Wii and Wii U and there was so much green shift after F-Zero's UI fonts I thought "no way that is signal degradation of any kind, has to be an intentional effect"... Well it isn't. Also noted a lot of other chroma issues, guess I'm finding a way to integrate my old Wii into my setup...


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:49 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
Wii U Wii Mode is a disaster.

  1. 16 pixels is cut on each sides, in destination space. This result in 480p having the most overscan and 1080p the least. There is no 1:1 mapping.
  2. There's a disagreement between left and center chroma sampling location. This result in a slight chroma shift.
  3. There's no conversion between Rec. 601 and Rec. 709 Y'CbCr. This can result in wrong colors in HD and on the Wii U GamePad. This is further exacerbated by the smaller color gamut on the Wii U GamePad.


Might it be possible to fix the vWii mode video output by modifying the firmware for DMCU/Cafe2Wii? (Once the IOSU exploit is released)

From fail0verflow:-
https://fail0verflow.com/blog/2014/cons ... omake.html
Quote:
DMCU

You may have noticed that good old VI (the display controller / Video Interface of ye olde GameCube and Wii) is gone. Huh? How does that work? Turns out they’re emulating that in software and translating its configuration to the R7xx’s CRTC registers. But where does this emulation software run? Sneaky: they added a special microcontroller to the Latte just for this purpose. The DMCU is a 68HC11 compatible 8-bit CPU whose sole purpose is to perform VI emulation. It has a frontend hardware shim that looks like VI to the Wii software, and behind the scenes it translates those registers to the Radeon’s, including upscaling configuration. cafe2wii loads the DMCU’s firmware (the DMCU doesn’t seem to be active in Wii U mode). It has its own dedicated RAM and access to both the faux-VI back side and the Radeon’s register area. There is also a little mailbox to talk to it from vWii mode: the System Menu and IOS use this to configure the 4:3 stretch mode for Virtual Console games (which is why The Homebrew Channel accidentally ends up in the wrong mode: after a recent update, the System Menu thinks it’s a Virtual Console title due to its title ID starting with ‘L’ and sets up that special mode). Presumably it also got an update when gamepad support for vWii showed up, though I haven’t looked at the firmware again since then.


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 Post subject: Re: Wii with Framemeister vs Wii U comparison
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:11 am 



Joined: 23 Dec 2016
Posts: 2
I swear it feels like there's chroma sub-sampling going on too. Bright colours look like they have really blocky edges, as if they were encoded in a 4:2:0 space or something.


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