Seth Killian's 'Rising Thunder' takes on FGC genre elitists

[STG4WD]

Over in the Fighting Games Community, news broke during last weekend's Evolution Championships of a forthcoming game called 'Rising Thunder'.

Developed by Seth Kilian (ex-Capcom and a veteran of competitive fighting games) together with a team including the Canon brothers who run Evo, the game will be free-to-play and is deliberately aimed at broadening the appeal of the genre.

The most controversial aspect of this new game will be that it does not require any complex inputs to execute special moves.

You can read more over on Event Hubs:

[Killian:] "When I think about fighting games, what we think about as the base elements are hidden behind an execution wall…."" His solution is to get rid of the traditional input for special moves. From now on, you'll simply press a button to get the special attack you want. That special attack will also include a brief cool down timer. Sound familiar? That might be because this concept is often seen in games like League of Legends at a much slower pace. ""If you see me jumping and you want to uppercut, you just hit the button."

Predictably, the removal of input complexity has elicited howls of pain from the elitists of the FGC who feel that the complex execution barrier should remain. If you enjoy witnessing that kind of pain from gaming elitists (as I do) then just read some of the comments on the article.

Seth Killian is someone with an unquestionable love for the genre he represents. He has deliberately chosen to make a new game that breaks down the elitist barriers surrounding fighting games, and encourages a wider audience to participate.

How do you think this move will pan out? If it succeeds, could it point the way for developers to bring an audience back to Shmups??

[Squire Grooktook]

Skullgirls already did an extremely good job of "removing complex inputs". Almost every single special is down-forward-button, and amost every super is down-forward-2x buttons. I don't see any way you can make things much simpler than that while still retaining a decent sized moveset.

Fighting games are already doing pretty damn good in the age of online play, with both casual and competitive players galore. Shmups however will not get that same kind of boost ever do their solo focused nature. They will always be a niche below a genre like fighters, due to their limited and tight natures.

I don't think "elitism" or "catering to the hardcore" has done much negative for the genre, if anything its strengthened it by retaining the interest of hardcore players while casual players abandoned 20 minute games in the age of 3d. If shmups had remained more "casual", making nothing but R-Type/Toaplan styled memorizers for the past ten years, then they would have done nothing but lose casuals AND hardcore players.

I think the extreme competitive focus on scoring has hurt the genre's variety a little bit, most new developers focus entirely on being me2 danmaku shooters with slightly different scoring systems, rather then trying to come up with the unique weapon systems, environmental hazards, and "hooks" that characterized older shmups. But it's a minor complaint that many games address (even if these games are in a slight minority imo).

[Immryr]

Surely the complexity of fighting games does not come from the inputs required for specials. I don't think many people struggle with qcf punch or whatever. It's the even more hidden things like understanding spacing, how to link combos and match ups etc which makes getting into fighting games difficult.

[KAI]

Evolve

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[eebrozgi]

Hey, thank you for bringing this game up, first time I heard about it and got me pretty excited of what could come out of it.

(Disclaimer or tl;dr or whatever: I like fighting games. I also like raising accessibility without draining complexity.)

The accessibility is a topic I've been thinking about more and more lately, sparked by how I never really felt that I had touched the core of BlazBlue Continuum Shift for the few fleeting months me and a bunch of friends were actively playing that game, even tough I had played Guilty Gears for a while and felt like I had learned them too. Another contributor is my love for Super Smash Bros. games, how I love Melee and was initially very disappointed with "dumbed down" Brawl, but grew fond of it with partyplaying with buddies and am actively playing Smash 4 these days. In the last Melee tournament I attended I found myself wishing that Melee would have some of the input-easing features from Brawl/4, such as an input buffer forgiving missing inputs by a few frames before recovering from the last move. L-canceling (press trigger just before landing during an aerial attack to recover faster) I find questionable too, since it raises the technical barrier a lot without adding much mindgame elements at all, feels more like a single-player feature to me. Not that I still don't appreciate Melee a hella lot, I just wish I didn't have to deal with all of the highly technical mumbo-jumbo to compete with the mind of the other player. Gotta say though, my fault for not training at all on the week before the tourney, but... Y'know.

Shmups however will not get that same kind of boost ever do their solo focused nature.

How about multiplayer shmups, then? I haven't played Jamestown yet, but I have the impression that it has done well. I'm curious, too: Do people here play co-op or other multiplayer shmups often or at least on some kind of basis? Or do you always refer to other games for your multiplayer needs? Which are the best multiplayer shmups?

[CWM]

Not really sure what "removing arbitrary execution requirements" would mean for shmups. The core mechanics are already about as simple as they can get. Only thing you can do is reduce difficulty by making the game more forgiving of mistakes, which is something Touhou already does to some extent.

On the topic of "bringing audience back to shmups", as someone who literally played his first shmup a little over half a year ago, I have some ideas based on my own experiences:

1. Tutorials.
Pretty much everything that seems natural and obvious to an experienced player will be news to a beginner. Streaming as a concept is not obvious at all. Where to look on the screen is not obvious at all. Sensory overload is a problem. Mentally filtering aimed bullets from static ones, or generally seeing patterns inside the patterns, is difficult.
Thing is, I don't think it's so difficult to teach someone all this. Want to teach them how to micrododge? Spawn some simple semi-random pattern and darken the screen everywhere except in their intended "field of vision". I'm more than certain any experienced player wouldn't have a problem designing a practice stage intended to teach the player a specific streaming technique., either.
I think this would help people who are potentially interested in the genre but intimidated by how scary bullet-hell games appear, for instance.

2. Finer difficulty grading.
So, my first shmup was Crimzon Clover, and I worked my way through Novice Original at a steady pace - a good difficulty level for a complete beginner, imo. But then, the next thing in line was Arcade, which was way, way beyond my capabilities at the time. Only now, 6 months later, I'm working my way towards a DOJBL clear, and I feel like I can realisitically try for a CC Arcade Original one as well. This is a recurring problem with pretty much every shmup I've played, and I suspect that a good amount of Touhou's popularity stems from not having it. Touhou games offer a very smooth difficulty curve, where one can progress along the lines of (easier games on Normal -> more difficult games on Normal -> easier games on Hard -> more difficult games on Hard, etc). For someone who goes straight to UFO Lunatic, this is worthless, but it's very valuable to beginners in my view.

I'm sure there are other games that do this well, that I simply haven't played, but I think developers should pay more attention to having a difficulty level for players who aren't total beginners, but aren't good enough for an arcade 1cc.

You can probably theorize about de-emphasizing the concept of a 1CC somewhat and rewarding the player for gradual increases in their performance, but the above can be done without any major changes to the design of your average "hardcore" shmup.

[Squire Grooktook]

Shmups however will not get that same kind of boost ever do their solo focused nature.

How about multiplayer shmups, then? I haven't played Jamestown yet, but I have the impression that it has done well. I'm curious, too: Do people here play co-op or other multiplayer shmups often or at least on some kind of basis? Or do you always refer to other games for your multiplayer needs? Which are the best multiplayer shmups?

Multiplayer shmups would be a godsend for the genre IMO, and Jamestown not having online co op is one of the greatest tragedies of gaming this millenium.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Tatsunoko vs. Capcom on Wii tried to bring the casual interest back by having a similar "simple mode" for special moves - and releasing on a casual-focused console to boot. Though the obscure roster wasn't helpful.

As for shmups, it's fairly fruitless trying to get them a bigger audience because even today's "hardcore" gamer is in a cycle of buy, play, trade in, repeat. People don't play through games multiple times, they just use them as money off the next title. How can you promote a genre where the game is short and requires repeat play? One long Toaplan checkpoint style game that lasts 10-15 hours with unlimited restarts from the checkpoints? Sounds fairly horrendous. Ginga Force's stage setup is probably close as you can get to something that caters for "today's gamer". Failing that, appeal to the retro sensibilties and put out pre-bullet hell games, but you probably can't price it higher than a fiver because paying money for indie games seems to offend people.

[Special World]

Surely the complexity of fighting games does not come from the inputs required for specials. I don't think many people struggle with qcf punch or whatever. It's the even more hidden things like understanding spacing, how to link combos and match ups etc which makes getting into fighting games difficult.

With new players, quarter-circle movements absolutely are a barrier. You've never seen somebody do some wonky-ass shit because they're struggling to pull out a special? Especially with terrible 360 dpad/sticks.

No, they're not "the complexity" of fighting games. But they're a purposeless wall that prevent new players from actually learning the complexities of spacing/mind games/linking/whatever. I think linking is a huge problem too, tbh.

Edit: Also, I don't think a "simple" mode is the answer. Pretty much any player is going to feel like a baby who isn't playing "the real game," and there's going to be pressure from their friends to not cop out like that.

[Squire Grooktook]

Surely the complexity of fighting games does not come from the inputs required for specials. I don't think many people struggle with qcf punch or whatever. It's the even more hidden things like understanding spacing, how to link combos and match ups etc which makes getting into fighting games difficult.

With new players, quarter-circle movements absolutely are a barrier. You've never seen somebody do some wonky-ass shit because they're struggling to pull out a special?

Nope, never seen that. Most of my non-fighter friends don't seem to have a trouble doing hadokens. It's more that the spacing game utterly confounds them. "I can't just walk up and jab someone? How the fuck do I hit anybody?" and you end up seeing them just panicing and mashing random buttons and directions at neutral, hoping to get some lucky hits in.

As the proof of the pudding, these players have absolutely no problem panic spamming supers in games that have quarter circle two punch inputs (Mvc2, Darkstalkers, Skullgirls), and will do Shinku Hadokens and Berserker Barrage's flawlessly every time. But as soon as they're out of meter, it's back to walking up and throwing random sweeps and medium punches.

Also yeah linking sucks though.

[Special World]

In my experience I would say QCFs aren't that bad, but double-QCF specials can be difficult, and shoryuken movements are especially tough to pull off reliably. Plus, nobody will understand charge moves without them being explained, imo.

[Squire Grooktook]

Yeah, I agree. QCF x2 and anything similarly complex is pointless.

I'm also drawing a bit from my own experience. I figured out how to do hadoken's and dragon punches on my first night playing fighters, but it was the basic spacing/punish game that confounded me for years. I've observed the same thing with friends.

I'm not against people making more unorthodox fighters (a world with more Smash Bros and Powerstones would be a better world), but I don't have a lot of faith in Killian here or his goals. I think he's kind of full of himself here TBH. If he really wants to communicate to non fighter fans, he should be making something more movement focused like Smash Bros, instead of a Killer Instinct/Street Fighter like with MOBA cooldowns lol.

[Special World]

Oh, definitely. I think Rising Thunder just looks kind of... boring, if nothing else.

And I *totally* agree with CWM when he says that shmups need tutorials. Shmups need their own Skullgirls: A good-looking, well-polished game that teaches players the basics and finer details of the genre and the game in particular. Plus, these tutorials need to be INTERACTIVE. Nobody's gonna learn anything by watching ships shoot shit. Tap-dodging, using bombs instead of wasting them, scoring methods, 1CCs, whatever. Find some way to work them in, in a way where players feel like they're learning and progressing. Throw some achievements in there too, just make sure that they're not popping up and distracting the player during gameplay. Maybe at the end show them a medal list of like, "hey, you bombed when a bullet was JUST about to hit you!"

I think a well-polished and player-friendly tutorial and achievement system would go a long way. And better difficulty grading, for sure. I can't beat anything but the easiest shooters, and there's nothing in-between to progress to.

[Shepardus]

And I *totally* agree with CWM when he says that shmups need tutorials. Shmups need their own Skullgirls: A good-looking, well-polished game that teaches players the basics and finer details of the genre and the game in particular. Plus, these tutorials need to be INTERACTIVE. Nobody's gonna learn anything by watching ships shoot shit. Tap-dodging, using bombs instead of wasting them, scoring methods, 1CCs, whatever. Find some way to work them in, in a way where players feel like they're learning and progressing. Throw some achievements in there too, just make sure that they're not popping up and distracting the player during gameplay. Maybe at the end show them a medal list of like, "hey, you bombed when a bullet was JUST about to hit you!"

Simulation 296 did a pretty decent job of that from what I can tell. I can't read Japanese so I don't know what it actually says but it's a series of short challenges that are mostly focused around specific dodging and other techniques. I certainly wouldn't mind seeing more of that, perhaps in a fuller game and translated into more languages.

[Teufel_in_Blau]

If a shmup is too easy, it gets boring really fast, even for casuals. Many new members here found this genre via Mame, and the games in Mame are not exactly beginner friendly. An easier scoring system is also not the problem because, let's face it, most new players are going to ignore scoring anyway.

I honestly don't see how to bring a new casual audience to the genre without changing the games in a way that they stop being shmups and alienating your core audience. Also, I honestly hate the "elitists" part. Those elitists were the only people that still bought those games and kept some companies in a zombie-like state while those lovable casual gamers, that everyone seems to try to gather to, just abandoned the genre for interactive movies.

[Shepardus]

If a shmup is too easy, it gets boring really fast, even for casuals. Many new members here found this genre via Mame, and the games in Mame are not exactly beginner friendly. An easier scoring system is also not the problem because, let's face it, most new players are going to ignore scoring anyway.

I like how Ikaruga encourages players to go for score by assigning grades - you can still ignore it if you want, but the game will make you fully aware that your score has a long way to improve, and it's more natural for a player to want to reach an A or an S than to reach some arbitrary number or spot on the leaderboard that they're not even sure is a good score or an achievable score. So basically it suggests goals for players to reach, and lets players' completionist/achievement-hunting tendencies take over from there.

[Special World]

If a shmup is too easy, it gets boring really fast, even for casuals. Many new members here found this genre via Mame, and the games in Mame are not exactly beginner friendly. An easier scoring system is also not the problem because, let's face it, most new players are going to ignore scoring anyway.

That's why we want a solid difficulty *curve* not easy, easy, easy games. For myself, I find Cave's easy modes really fucking boring, but then going up to normal arcade mode is a massive leap. The exception: Mushi Futari's Novice Ultra. That's got all the style and impact of the main game, and yet it slows everything down and hits players less hard. I think that's what developers need to think about when they're designing for new players. Not "how can we make this easy" but "how can we open this up to new players without diminishing impact." Keep the bullet count high but slow bullets down. BUT! If you've got a game with bullet hell shots and manic shots, keep both shot types and just simplify them. Okay, so maybe the danmaku lotuses will be slower and a little less dense so players can navigate them. Maybe just slow the manic shots down a *little bit*, but if there's a 3-line shot, maybe remove one or two of those lines so that players don't get trapped? There are really a lot of ways you could do this right. I for one am not a fan of Cave's typical "zero bullets, auto bomb" strategy for reducing difficulty.

I would also say that Mars Matrix DC does things really right with its point-based shop. Players work toward an achievable goal that'll allow them to customize the game experience so they can survive to later levels. During that time, they're also getting better and learning to score. Without Mars Matrix, I probably wouldn't be into this genre at all. Because I just wouldn't Get It. That's still an incredibly hardcore game, granted, but even just changing the systems around a game can make things more approachable for new players.

[Cagar]

A must-read interview regarding the game:
http://www.pcgamer.com/rising-thunder-a ... the-genre/

[Immryr]

honestly i think jamestown gets things just about right for a new shmup which can attract new players while being enjoyable for people who have been playing these games for years too. a mode just about getting through a level at a time, a mode about trying for a 1cc, scaling difficulty levels, different short trials emphasising different general shooting game skills. great stuff for people of a wide range of skills and experience levels in shooting games.

[BrianC]

I'm a bit confused. What does this have to do with shmups?

[mamboFoxtrot]

^ I think we're about to have our 60th "why are shmerps niche / how can maximize the appeal of shmoops / the hardcore killed [genre]" thread.

"It's a variant system that hasn't really been done with fighting games before. You can pick one of three choices for every special move you have. Some of them are nerdy, subtle changes, and some are completely different moves."

But... what about Smash 4? *cue "smoosh iznt a fightan geemu" argument*

Anyways, I can't find anything describing this "one button special move" thing. Is it like Smash where you combine it with a direction, or does every special move have its own button?

Either way, I'm sure it will turn out fine if the game is designed from the ground up around it, but yeah trying to shove this system into other games would probably be a disaster. Hell, in games like The Last Blade or Darkstalkers, some characters have so many special moves that I don't even think it would be possible to do this.
I do find it a bit irritating to see so many people (not so much here) declaring the whole concept of special motions to be "pointless" or a "relic" or w/e. Yeah, some motions are really silly, and others just awkward to do on a joystick or keyboard, but overall I think that system works fine. I also don't think basic stuff like quarter-circles and double-taps are even all that hard, at least on a joystick. I'm a total fumble-fingers and even I don't screw those up any more than I accidently side-B when I wanted to up-B in Smash or any other minor error (I have a harder time just doing basic moving and aiming in FPS/TPS kinds of games!). To be frank, I think someone put off by simple motions like those would probably be put off by basically anything.

Tatsunoko vs. Capcom on Wii tried to bring the casual interest back by having a similar "simple mode" for special moves

They really botched that, though. Like, you literally just had no access (or at least not easy access) to some of your moves, be they certain normals or certain strength-variations of your specials, and some characters were practically unplayable. On the flip-side, moves that required you to "charge" a direction could just be spammed infinitely, creating a really obnoxious situation for new players trying to deal with spam of moves that weren't designed to be spammed.


Yanno, I can't think of any 2D fighting games that've tried the input style of a game like Soul Calibur, where like, 90% of your extra moves are done with single or double-tapped directions and/or pushing two buttons at the same time. The only moves I ever had trouble pulling off with were the "slide" inputs, where you had to quickly, but not too quickly, push one button and then another. Oh, and some of the really silly command grab inputs like what Ivy had. (Actually remembering all of the moves, though, is another story...)

[MathU]

I think Hellsinker's system of high mortality, high extra life payout, and big rewards for not getting hit so much (both score-wise and adaptive gameplay) is an excellent way to bridge the gap for people who find the genre too challenging to get into. Probably goes unnoticed like some of its other innovations because the rest of the game is so complex.

[Vampire_Saviour]

We aren't "elitists" for desiring something that essentially replaces RNGs in situations that could be reduced to probabilities. Part of execution is directly consequent from strategy. If I am trying to decipher what my opponent is thinking, a component of what I am analyzing is their button presses. This is really important in games like Street Fighter and Tekken. They're so integrated that removing one will always have a detrimental effect on the other.

Also you don't have to use big combos to win. Just look at the majority of Dhalsim players in ST.

The idea of eliminating execution barriers in real-time competitive gaming turns it into a 1on1 MOBA, which is essentially theory fighter. I don't like the idea of reducing fighting games to theory fighter. There's a reason why many FG match videos have so much hype surrounding them.

[ilitirit]

Making execution easier isn't something new - it's been done since Versus games. The fundamental execution these games is ridiculously easy. Virtually all specials and supers are simplified QCF motions. Look at Melty Blood for another example. So I don't really no why this is a big deal. There's also the other obvious aspect where making execution too easy gets in the way of players, eg. In SFIV where crouching blocking an ambiguous vortex setup often results in a DP when switching sides. But these are known issues and have been discussed to death already.

HOWEVER:

In games like Marvel and Melty, for all intents and purposes, the execution barrier only exists higher levels of play. Even beside the combos, people admire good movement in MvC3 (and even 3D fighters like Tekken) because it's a hard skill to learn. Are they really thinking of dumbing down this aspect of the game as well? Imagine beating a guy and then him responding "the only reason you beat me is because you have finer control over your character. That's unfair because I outplayed you in my head". Is this really where we are headed? From the changes made to Tekken 7 (I urge you to read up on the rationale behind the changes to movement), it definitely seems like it. I for one cannot say I approve.

IMO the attempt to shorten the gap between newcomers and veterans is misguided and not good for any scene (shmups, FGC, FPS etc). The gap between new comer and MID LEVEL players should be shortened. I mean, simple arithmetic shows that these players make up the majority any way. And by the time the beginner reaches the point where they can comfortably play in this bracket, they probably will have a different mindset about the game anyway. In other words, they'll begin to understand why the idea that beginners should be able to beat veterans is laughable and stupid.

[Icarus]

IMO the attempt to shorten the gap between newcomers and veterans is misguided and not good for any scene (shmups, FGC, FPS etc). The gap between new comer and MID LEVEL players should be shortened. I mean, simple arithmetic shows that these players make up the majority any way. And by the time the beginner reaches the point where they can comfortably play in this bracket, they probably will have a different mindset about the game anyway. In other words, they'll begin to understand why the idea that beginners should be able to beat veterans is laughable and stupid.

This is probably the most sensible thing I've heard coming from anyone on this forum for quite some time.

[Faenrir]

How do you think this move will pan out? If it succeeds, could it point the way for developers to bring an audience back to Shmups??

I think it's a great idea. As a fan of arcade games and fighting games myself, i think it is a great move. In my opinion, forcing players to do very hard motions to pull off special moves is a thing of the past. It is really dated and while it does bring satisfaction when you manage to do it on a regular basis, it also separates the "pro" players from the casual ones too much.
Seth Killian has done a great job on SSFT2:HD Remix imo and i think he will succeed with this.
I don't believe it could be used in shmups but what could bring an audience back to shmups is what i'm trying. Adding more rpg-like elements to them (you didn't beat the level ? Come back in a few levels and with a stronger ship you will ! ) for instance.
Well, i'm not saying i'm developing the perfect game, shoot'em'up are very hard to develop because they require so much fine-tuning and really good level design...but still i believe it is a good idea.
There has been too much danmakus lately and while i can understand that the current scene likes them, i think it's a bit too much of one style and with time would kill the scene if only those were coming out.
Well that's just my opinion of course and i'm not a big fan of danmakus, i'd rather play Raiden, Donpachi and those kind of games ^^

@ilitirit: i don't think beginners will beat veteran players. If you're a veteran, you know how to react to the other player's actions. That character does this ? Ok, i know what to do. And then you punish the opponent. It will stay true, even if the moves are easier to pull off...

[Special World]

IMO the attempt to shorten the gap between newcomers and veterans is misguided and not good for any scene (shmups, FGC, FPS etc). The gap between new comer and MID LEVEL players should be shortened.

That's what this is. Simplifying inputs is not affecting veteran-level play even a little bit, it's streamlining things for newcomers and maybe even new/mid level players. That's Seth Killian's entire point. He wants to get new people caring about fighting games; the veterans are already in.

[ilitirit]

That's what this is. Simplifying inputs is not affecting veteran-level play even a little bit, it's streamlining things for newcomers and maybe even new/mid level players. That's Seth Killian's entire point. He wants to get new people caring about fighting games. The veterans are already in.

Rising Thunder makes the point that many FG veterans already know - ease-of-execution *does* affect strategy

His solution is to get rid of the traditional input for special moves. From now on, you'll simply press a button to get the special attack you want. That special attack will also include a brief cool down timer.

Why include a cooldown? In other words, suppose traditional inputs are left in the game. What purpose does the cooldown serve now? If it's simply a trade-off, then the implication is that beginners AND veterans are affected by the decision to make the game more accessible. To put it bluntly, veterans will no longer be able to throw two fireballs in quick succession because beginners don't know how to perform a QCF.

For the record, I'm a big proponent of lowering the barrier to entry in terms of fundamental execution.

But I'm not convinced that:
1. The gap between beginner and veteran needs to be shortened
2. Higher level strategy should change to cater for easier execution

[Faenrir]

But I'm not convinced that:
1. The gap between beginner and veteran needs to be shortened
2. Higher level strategy should change to cater for easier execution

Oh, it does. As someone who has been following the fighting games scene for some years (i even have a Street Fighter website xD), the lack of new faces in most tournaments is disappointing.
Also, i believe that less options isn't necessarily bad for fighting games. For instance, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo has, in my opinion, the ideal balance between special moves and regular moves damage. Regular moves do quite a bit of damage (Dictator's kick makes you regret taking it) and you are easily punished for your mistakes.

[Squire Grooktook]

Fighting games are doing fine in my experience. Though if less people are showing up to tournaments (not my experience either, I learn new names every evo, but maybe that's because I don't follow the scene that intensely any more), it's likely because the online warrior side of things is just a lot more convenient for people.

Wanna see a real depressing situation, look at shmups. When GO GO NIPPON! My First Trip to Japan outsells Astebreed, you know people have shit taste.