SNES problems with various scalers - issue with SNES models?

[Retro Access]

I sell cables on eBay and SNES is my greatest problem console with customer issues.

I have composite sync based SCART cables and composite based SCARTs, they both cause problems and often the problem is fixed by swapping out one for the other - but what the heck is going on with the SNES? I've been testing the cables before sending, they work on everything for me and I'm scratching my head on this, any inputs on "best" SNES model to buy are appreciated, plus if you have a SNES issue please post, maybe we can troubleshoot it. This thread is not only about XRGB Mini, it's about every scaler.

I saw in the thread re. Micomsoft XRGB Mini that the issue crop up even with this scaler, hence my reasoning this problem is occuring on other scalers and I probably can't replicate it because I have the "right" SNES.

Problems:

SCART to YUV converter: "I get a bad rolling picture and I assume it's your cable because my Genesis cable works." Told customer to send back, cable works fine on my own identical scaler with my SNES. Not sorted this one out yet. A headscratcher.

Also with SCART to YUV converter: Shadowing behind sprites, looks identical to the shadowing people have in XRGB Mini thread. Again, I cannot replicate this problem on my SNES using same converter.

RGBS/CGA to VGA upscaler board: "I get glitches but only with SNES." Told customer to send back, saw glitches maybe twice, not seen since (I probably hammered AUTO, but this didn't work for my customer.) Using the same game to replicate it too. Stupid SNES.

Micomsoft XRGB Mini: "The cable works on one SNES but not at all with the other, and on the one it works with it gets dropouts." Sent customer another cable as he said he had audio issues too, obviously same result occurs. This one's not a composite sync but a composite cable, as the sync cables don't work with this scaler but they do work with XRGB 3.

I am starting to really hate Nintendo.

I don't own a "one chip" SNES. I own a regular ass American SNES with the following on the board:

(C) 1993 Nintendo
SNS-CPU-GPM-02

PPUs: S-PPU1, S-PPU2 C

Could be the video encoder? Mine has S-ENC Nintendo S 9314 B on it.

Just took SNES apart to see this! Really spending a whole lot of time trying to get to the bottom of this.

I picked up another SNES at a flea market at weekend and I need to get around to looking at that one too. I would love to at least be able to replicate these customer issues, or understand them, or be able to say "Sorry it's your SNES doing this" without getting a neg.

I am very sorry if I appear to be trying to get others to do my homework for me, thing is I cannot afford to buy every revision SNES out there, or rather, testing this issue will fill up all my time and mean I have way less time to do cabling, cause the price of my SNES cables to skyrocket to compensate and well, I hope I can find some solutions that will keep my cables low price for everyone. If it means putting warnings on my listings re. certain SNES models then that appears to be the best solution. Maybe those customers need a more expensive cable with a sync seperator installed. If you were able to fix the issue with a sync seperator in the cable please give your input.

I've also heard the SNES Jr. has "bad" RGB. I modded a SNES Jr and sold it on eBay, it looked fine to me and the customer was delighted with it, so I don't understand this bad RGB thing, I seem to get more customer issues with the regular SNES. Inputs? Maybe modders not using the correct components? I researched it heavily and put the components in that were recommended for commercial clones of the video IC. SNES Jr. has a one chip setup (same as in one chip regular SNES? I'm not sure...) so I don't know if the issue people report is with the PPU or video encoder.

Post your problem/SNES model/upscaler and info on your ICs in your SNES if you have it.

[TurboCro]

My regular assed SNESs:

UN11391879
SNS-001
No picture at all

UN10174373
SNS-001
Great picture before it drops out

Both on an XRGB Mini via RGB. I get decent output via s-video on both systems using the Mini. I have no idea on internals, I don't have the special key to open it up. Your other cables work great on my CDX and Neo-Geo.

People shouldn't leave negative feedback for this kind of hardware issue, but such is ebay.

Anyhow, I guess the search for the golden SNES continues!

[Retro Access]

Forgot the serials.

SNS-001 (I surmise this is on all non SNES Jrs)
UN233013389 - a much newer model than the above post, by my experience with how Nintendo mark things.

Also the board in my SNES is smaller than the casing was designed for. There's screw holes and shielding points left with nothing there at the front of the casing. Is this the golden SNES? Who knows. The second PPU definitely appears to be a later revision from the "C" after the number. The video encoder appears to be first revision.

Your first SNES which has the dropouts would appear to be a very early model with the first PPU revisions. I am going by how Nintendo mark N64s, which I have seen a lot, a LOT of. I do not have much experience with types of SNES though because I never had SNES issues.

[scikoolaid]

It probably doesn't help much but I picked up your raw sync version SNES cable not too long ago (the gray, updated one with separated audio), and my SNES is also a SNS-CPU-GPM-02 but has a "Nintendo / S-ENC / 9334 M25 F"
It works perfectly from what I've seen and played through the SCART to YUV converter as well.

This might help http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthr ... ES-Model-1

I wish I could help, love your work btw

[grahf]

I own a Mini, and I recently bought a few Super Famicoms in my search for a 1-Chip. I've personally taken them all apart and examined the PCBs for revisions and minor changes. That said, I have had two completely identicle board revisions, and only one of them had issues. The picture was a little brighter on it, and it experienced sync dropouts in overly bright areas.

I'm convinced the issues that some people are having are capacitor related. And why not? Every piece of electronics that was manufactured in the late 80s and early 90s has capacitor failure to some degree. It has more to do with the makeup of the capacitors being produced during this time, than it does with manufacturing quality. On some systems, such as the original PC Engine Duo, you can pretty much expect that it will have some issues. Super Famicoms/SNES's are largely OK since they're not so complex, but it makes perfect sense that the video issues are caused by this.

Any thoughts on that?

[fagin]

But I doubt any of these SNES's are actually broken.... I bet they all work on CRT's!

So what could cause one to work on a CRT 100% and fail when being fed through a scaler or transcoder and then to a LCD for instance..... I personally suspect an issue with the sync signal and the sync signal only.

The fact that these machines were never designed for anything other than a CRT may actually provide the answer.

I haven't looked into this much, but has anyone (and perhaps this is on the Frameister thread) tried feeding the standard video sync signal through an Extron RGB interface to stabalise.... if so what have been the results? No point me doing this as I have no problems (sync wise) with my SNES and any of my scalers etc.

Retro Access,

I am very sorry if I appear to be trying to get others to do my homework for me, thing is I cannot afford to buy every revision SNES out there, or rather, testing this issue will fill up all my time and mean I have way less time to do cabling, cause the price of my SNES cables to skyrocket to compensate and well, I hope I can find some solutions that will keep my cables low price for everyone.

Thems are are breaks when you decide to do something commercial! Of course if your a non-profit entity than full respect.... if you're not, do you're own investigation!

[Retro Access]

I own a Mini, and I recently bought a few Super Famicoms in my search for a 1-Chip. I've personally taken them all apart and examined the PCBs for revisions and minor changes. That said, I have had two completely identicle board revisions, and only one of them had issues. The picture was a little brighter on it, and it experienced sync dropouts in overly bright areas.

I'm convinced the issues that some people are having are capacitor related. And why not? Every piece of electronics that was manufactured in the late 80s and early 90s has capacitor failure to some degree. It has more to do with the makeup of the capacitors being produced during this time, than it does with manufacturing quality. On some systems, such as the original PC Engine Duo, you can pretty much expect that it will have some issues. Super Famicoms/SNES's are largely OK since they're not so complex, but it makes perfect sense that the video issues are caused by this.

Any thoughts on that?

I could understand that with the European models, which have the capacitors for the video lines inside the console (but then miss out the resistors to ground for some reason, Nintendo are odd.) But these are US SNESs with the problem, and the capacitors are in the cable, plus there's no capacitor on the video out line required. I'll do some more checking to locate any additional capacitors going into the video encoder.

Are you sure your identical board revisions all had the same PPUs, and same video encoder?

[Retro Access]

Thems are are breaks when you decide to do something commercial! Of course if your a non-profit entity than full respect.... if you're not, do you're own investigation!

With respect, I cannot do anything without asking people, as I do not make enough money from this to buy up multiple TVs, encoders etc (I already have a few, any more will cause prices on my products to go up), this is all I do for a living and I just had my listings turned off for 3 days trying to solve this, it doesn't help anyone, especially the people who want to buy the non-SNES cables, and I'm the only one selling Saturn cables right now.

Plus, if I put this out in an open discussion it helps people who bought my cables as well as others. I want to be entirely clear I'm laying myself bare here, most sellers will not offer this level of help to buyers, they'll either say "tough luck" or they'll say "Send it back for a refund" and even the latter leaves you at square one, it causes the buyer to assume the issue was the cable and they'll rush out and buy yet another which will do the exact same thing. If anything it's problematic for sellers to admit "yes I am having multiple problems related to one of my products."

Asking here does not make me any money, it just gives people clearer answers.

[Zapf]

You should put a note about compatibility issues on the item description somewhere in the meantime (that doesn't guarantee people read it, but hey, it'll be there). Also, I don't know if your main (non ebay) webpage has a section for a blog or something similar, but maybe start putting up information about RGB cabling, issues you've had, etc, so you can link that stuff when people ask you about cabling for the umpteenth time - I know you've mentioned frustration regarding that in previous posts. Or link to videogameperfection - he/she has done a lot of that work.

[grahf]

Are you sure your identical board revisions all had the same PPUs, and same video encoder?

Yes, 100% identicle for sure. Both were RGB-02 boards, with very close serial numbers. The one with dropout issues was also in near-mint condition, indicating it had barely been used. This all looks like capacitor issues to me.

I guess there is also the possibility that the encoders themselves are to blame.

[fagin]

This all looks like capacitor issues to me.

Personally I would be very surprised if this is causing the issue.... I have a initial release JAP SNES and have kicked the shit out of it (I'm not the only one in this position). I get no dropouts at all!

I really do understand what you're getting at, but I personally would be surprised it was a caps issue.

[viletim]

Retro Access,

Some quick points.

1. The composite sync signal is for a logic gate input (such as an arcade monitor) not a 75 ohm terminated video input of SCART. If you connect it in a SCART cable it is your responsibility to test this on every single possible hardware configuration. Otherwise it may not work and you will be accused of selling a faulty product.

2. The composite sync signal is present only on the NTSC model SNES. On the PAL model, it is replaced by a SCART switching signal.

3. The PAL and NTSC video output circuits are different and each require their own 'special' cable. See my page for a diagram of each. Note that the 75 ohm resistor to ground on the video line of the PAL version is essential and also required for composite video only cables.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/ ... t.htm#snes

[Retro Access]

viletim, I am already aware of how the SNES differs in permutations, I don't currently sell a PAL model on eBay because I already get enough orders for the NTSC ones and there's plenty available to PAL users on the European sites. I don't advertise my product for PAL, I advertise it for NTSC.

I am also aware that because I cannot, literally cannot test it on every permutation that I would be accused of selling a faulty product.

I am cutting out the sync based cables (bar for RGBS>VGA board), I started selling them as a solution for buyers who asked and wanted to deconstruct the cables themselves. I thought these would be fine on the various converters because they worked on all my converters and TVs. It is only a handful of buyers with any issue vs hundreds. But I get just as many with an issue with composite based cables, so I don't know what to think.

I am aware that composite sync is non standard in SCART but it became an essential thing to fix jailbars in Genesis systems. I was quite amazed at the range of TVs that accepted the signal when I was in the UK, I tested a lot of them and very, very few buyers have any issue at all with Genesis sync. So I continue to sell these and simply offer an exchange to the buyers who have an issue (and they very often are more keen to simply replace the incompatible scaler/TV, as they don't want the jailbars.) But as an interesting point, I do not sell a Genesis 1 sync cable because I tested them and found a few TVs that did not like the signal. As I've said before, if it's required you can ask for the wiring if you accept it might not work.

Literally the only thing I can do is collate information from buyers and work with them to fix this.

this has nothing to do with anyone, but

I'm pondering ducking out of this site guys, the possible friction against commercial sellers is a bit hard for me to take. I'm trying to collate this particular information as a service, not as a commercial interest - trust me it would be easy enough to buy up loads of excellent hardware and charge the cost to my buyers in the price of the products but I don't think that's fair. I don't even think it's viable, but this is besides the point.

I'm not a big commercial seller. I am a small seller who turned a hobby into literally, a way out of poverty. I am incredibly grateful to the buyers on here and elsewhere (loads on Something Awful), plus the hundreds of buyers elsewhere who only do this as a small hobby and know nothing about the ins and outs of it, who made it possible for me to boost what was a very limited income from my main job into something I was able to use to make something better of my life and come to the USA to be with my husband.

I have a lot of admiration for the people who put out information they have discovered or designed and make this available to the public. I don't want to seem like a complete heel for not doing this and making what I knew into a commercial endevour. I would dearly love to work deeper with this, but I'm scared of possible disrespect I might get for selling on eBay.

Viletim I really don't want to use your info or anybody's info to produce anything commercially. I have a golden rule to never step on peoples' feet with this. I have built and perfected my products using information from the PDFs for video encoders, deconstructing original hardware, working with buyers to come up with a solution when something falls flat. I don't know any other way of doing this, because my income from this is extremely limited and my time spent on it is already hefty to say the least. I don't have enough time to do the level of research you are doing and I really wish I did, I love doing this but I have no idea how I can even begin to afford the equipment I want, I really hope that does not make people view me as stupid and irresponsible.

[Retro Access]

This all looks like capacitor issues to me.

Personally I would be very surprised if this is causing the issue.... I have a initial release JAP SNES and have kicked the shit out of it (I'm not the only one in this position). I get no dropouts at all!

I really do understand what you're getting at, but I personally would be surprised it was a caps issue.

Do you know the PPUs and video encoder in this SNES?

I'm guessing first rev for everything.

I really don't think it is a caps issue either. I'm sure they work fine on SCART input CRTs - no longer available to me in USA, sadly.

I had limited orders today so I'm going to check all the circuitry in the SNES I have here on the video lines, and the other SNES which is non operational (I bought a big job lot off a guy of broken parts to fiddle with, but all that's wrong with it is the power in socket. Going to replace it with a standard socket identical to Megadrive and PC Engine, like on "sensible" SNES casing ie the Euro and Japanese models.)

I am still scared of people thinking I am going to use their info to profit from. This is a very helpful board, as are many. Please don't think I am doing this, I am just trying to come up with solutions.

[Retro Access]

You should put a note about compatibility issues on the item description somewhere in the meantime (that doesn't guarantee people read it, but hey, it'll be there). Also, I don't know if your main (non ebay) webpage has a section for a blog or something similar, but maybe start putting up information about RGB cabling, issues you've had, etc, so you can link that stuff when people ask you about cabling for the umpteenth time - I know you've mentioned frustration regarding that in previous posts. Or link to videogameperfection - he/she has done a lot of that work.

Zapf, it does have a section for a blog. I am not a big blogger I'm afraid. eBay don't let me link to anything outside eBay and they get worse about that year on year. There's reviews you can write on eBay about products as well as guides for them so I'll definitely look into doing that.

[fagin]

It should be first rev of everything. I know another person who has an "initial run" SNES and he has no problems either with any scalers etc.

All this was started to get discussed on the Framemeister thread.

I've already asked anyone that has a SNES that does not work with the Framemeister (for instance), whether they have tried "correcting" the sync with a Extron RGB Interface. The result of this may confirm or deny my gut feeling on the problem.

[Retro Access]

I'm guessing grahf's issues with the identical SNES could be down to something faulty in the actual ICs.

Of course, this happens. When I found out that the NES PPU (or at least, certain revisions) put out less jailbars than the Famicom PPU, this was a finding borne out of having a faulty PPU with graphical issues on certain games. I did a swap of a bunch of likely culprit components using a horribly yellowed NES with blinking light issues and narrowed it down to the PPU, which then produced a lot lower level of jailbars than every Famicom I've seen.

It could well be something else of course, like something causing interference in the RGB output. Replacing capacitors is of course the solution for a great deal of problems with old technology, but you can't always rely on this. The SNES appears to have very solid caps, we know that Duo and Game Gear caps as an example, were cheap in comparison but this is not true for everything. They'll all die out of course at some point but I haven't heard of this being common with SNES even this long after manufacture.

[BuckoA51]

I'm running a Super Famicom SHVC-001 S19950164, works lovely with one of your raw sync cables through to my XRGB3, though I plan to order another one as you said you'd improved audio quality since I purchased it.

Now, Retro Access, I want to tell you what I think is the problem in at least 75% of your customer complaints. SCART switches/cabling.

Here are all things I've seen that degrade/screw up/add noise or whatever to the picture:-

1) SCART switches - ALWAYS the number 1 suspect, I've lost count of the number of SCART switches I've tried that screw things up. Any switch that doesn't have a manual select usually causes problems. Any switch that doesn't have manual select and is unpowered is a recipe for disaster. Even switches with manual select cause problems depending on how they have been wired.

2) SCART extension cables - Need a longer SCART cable? Make sure you have a booster (ie a powered switch) inbetween to act as a hub, else kiss goodbye to your lovely picture. This happens on my Atari Jaguar, for instance, even with short extension cables. And yes, I did check that it wasn't a faulty cable I was extending it with.

3) Anything else to do with SCART switching and routing - Honestly I think SCART is some kind of black magic rather than RGB and some kind of sync. The amount of problems it throws up are unreal. I recently re-routed a whole bunch of SCART leads and something as simple as a wall plate with a SCART socket on it changed the signal enough to make it require boosting at the other end!

and finally 4) Power supplies - Yeah believe it or not if there's a fault with a PSU it can cause interference.

For every weird problem, I'd have the customer swear on whatever they hold sacred that they have tried the connection without any other SCART switches etc, even if they use said switches with other devices.

Or link to videogameperfection - he/she has done a lot of that work

"He/She" is one of Retro Access's biggest fans and would be delighted to help

[undamned]

If your intention is to continue selling these cables it would make sense to have many different systems on hand for testing. I find old SNES units at my local thrift shops semi-regularly and for fairly cheap.

What would be nice is if you could somehow sweet talk a customer into lending you their system which supposedly is not working with your cable so that you can test it on your setup. That way you can verify that your setup is not extra "forgiving." It is entirely possible that other people's displays are more picky than yours so you will never experience the problem they have on your display.
-ud

[viletim]

viletim, I am already aware of how the SNES differs in permutations, I don't currently sell a PAL model on eBay because I already get enough orders for the NTSC ones and there's plenty available to PAL users on the European sites. I don't advertise my product for PAL, I advertise it for NTSC.

Fair enough. There was no mention is this in your post.

I am still scared of people thinking I am going to use their info to profit from. This is a very helpful board, as are many. Please don't think I am doing this, I am just trying to come up with solutions.

I wouldn't worry about it. If the quality of your cables goes up as a result of some information you happen to find on my website or any other then this is good for everybody. Of course you should profit if you are going to the trouble of making cables by hand...

In any case, I happen to have a NTSC Super Nintendo floating around - I will see if there is anything remarkable about its sync/video output.

[BuckoA51]

I wouldn't worry about it. If the quality of your cables goes up as a result of some information you happen to find on my website or any other then this is good for everybody.

Oh and absolutely agree with this, you can use my information in your auctions for instance, no worries. Short of replicating an entire page, use it however you want, fair use is not theft.

[HDgaming42]

Retro--sent you a PM.

[Retro Access]

Cheers for all the info guys, I'm going away for the weekend because my birthday, anniversary and valentines day all fall in the same week so will post what I've done after then. I put warnings on my listings for now, as people still want the sync cables. There's a couple TVs out there with weird video artifacts with composite on the SNES, I had one myself and sync fixed it.

Saying that though the problem appears to be in the SNES models themselves if one works on an upscaler and another doesn't. Never thought I'd get a problem for instance, with those standard SCART to YUV boxes. Mind you I run mine on the CRT as the converter itself did not work at all on the LCDs I have. I have a different upscaler for each TV. For now I'm personally mailing every customer who buys and letting them know of possible issues, especially with XRGB Mini as that seems to be the one right now with most teething troubles with SNES.