Hello!
A few questions regarding PAL vs NTSC
1) We all know that old PAL 50games sucked:
- The 4:3 NTSC image (480 lines) resulted squashed when displayed on a 4:3 screen that can display up to 576 lines.
- Also, what happened in 1 second in an NTSC game took 1.2 seconds on a PAL 50 game.
Now, I'd like to know how exactly a fullscreen PAL game (PAL 60, but maybe not necessarily, is it possible to have full screen but 50 Hz?) works.
- We know that usually games are (were?) developed in VGA (640×480) resolutions which is 480 lines of proper pixels.
- Now, these 480 horizontal lines can "convert" easily to the 480 lines of NTSC TV.
But what happens with PAL if the game is full screen?
Does the game get "reprogrammed" (or whatever you'd say) to have 576 horizontal lines of pixels (thus increasing the resolution) or those 480 lines get displayed on the 576 TV lines?
2) Slightly related to this, do I need some specific cables to have PAL 60 displayed? Because a few days ago I tried to play VF4 on PS2 (all PAL) using a kinda old TV and a non RGB Scart lead. If I tried to play PAL 60, I got a black and white picture.
TV's fault or cable's fault?
Thanks for any answer
Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc
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Re: Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc
From what I know from the Amiga days:Franz the Stampede wrote: But what happens with PAL if the game is full screen?
Does the game get "reprogrammed" (or whatever you'd say) to have 576 horizontal lines of pixels (thus increasing the resolution) or those 480 lines get displayed on the 576 TV lines?
If you programmed a program that used more than the 480 lines it just wouldn't be displayed in NTSC mode. So I guess that means it should be reprogrammed.
Not sure, I know if you try to display NTSC games here in PAL land you need a RGB cable pr it would be displayed black and white.Franz the Stampede wrote:If I tried to play PAL 60, I got a black and white picture.
TV's fault or cable's fault?
Definitely the cheapest choice of the two to replace first
All errors are intentional but mistakes could have been made.
Re: Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc
PAL60 has the same number of lines as NTSC, no change needed.Franz the Stampede wrote:Now, I'd like to know how exactly a fullscreen PAL game (PAL 60, but maybe not necessarily, is it possible to have full screen but 50 Hz?) works.
Games that are fullscreen in PAL50 have been reprogrammed.
Re: Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc
Nope, cables don't care about video signal. It's a problem with the TV. Pal 60 is a weird specification in that it uses NTSC timings with e PAL colour encoding, so your TV probably has no idea what's going on.Franz the Stampede wrote: 2) Slightly related to this, do I need some specific cables to have PAL 60 displayed? Because a few days ago I tried to play VF4 on PS2 (all PAL) using a kinda old TV and a non RGB Scart lead. If I tried to play PAL 60, I got a black and white picture.
TV's fault or cable's fault?
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Re: Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc
I'm sorry but what you are saying seems unlikely. Wasn't the sloppy PAL 50 (slowed down, letterbox) something due to developers being "uninterested" in working to provide better PAL versions?nZero wrote:PAL60 has the same number of lines as NTSC, no change needed.Franz the Stampede wrote:Now, I'd like to know how exactly a fullscreen PAL game (PAL 60, but maybe not necessarily, is it possible to have full screen but 50 Hz?) works.
Games that are fullscreen in PAL50 have been reprogrammed.
Even if we assume that at the time all PAL TVs could do only 50 Hz, they still could have worked on having full screen images and the same speed of NTSC games, although at the cost of fluidity/frame rate.
Can you explain what you said more?
Thanks (also to the others )
S: the whole "reprogramming" thing seems really unfeasible to me, on 2D games that would imply redesigning every single sprite, no?
Re: Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc
I don't see the problem?Franz the Stampede wrote:I'm sorry but what you are saying seems unlikely. Wasn't the sloppy PAL 50 (slowed down, letterbox) something due to developers being "uninterested" in working to provide better PAL versions?nZero wrote:PAL60 has the same number of lines as NTSC, no change needed.
Games that are fullscreen in PAL50 have been reprogrammed.
Even if we assume that at the time all PAL TVs could do only 50 Hz, they still could have worked on having full screen images and the same speed of NTSC games, although at the cost of fluidity/frame rate.
Can you explain what you said more?
NTSC - 60Hz, 480 lines, NTSC color system
PAL60 - 60Hz, 480 lines, PAL colour system
PAL50 - 50Hz, 576 lines, PAL colour system
So, converting games to PAL regions when a percentage of the market had 50Hz-only sets meant either:
a) letterboxing and running slower, or
b) letterboxing and adjusting game logic, or
c) redesigning the game for fullscreen and adjusting game speed
Option a) is cheapest, and probably the best return on investment.
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Re: Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc
Ok, now I see. So, how do you get fullscreen with PAL 60, since the PAL TV has 576 lines and the game 480?nZero wrote:
I don't see the problem?
NTSC - 60Hz, 480 lines, NTSC color system
PAL60 - 60Hz, 480 lines, PAL colour system
PAL50 - 50Hz, 576 lines, PAL colour system
Re: Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc
A CRT TV isn't fixed to a particular number of lines. On a fixed-sync display like a television, the amount of lines able to be drawn in a single frame and the vertical refresh are inversely related. So, it's 480 lines drawn 60 times a second, spaced slightly further apart than the 576 lines drawn 50 times a second, to make fullscreen 60Hz.Franz the Stampede wrote:Ok, now I see. So, how do you get fullscreen with PAL 60, since the PAL TV has 576 lines and the game 480?nZero wrote:
I don't see the problem?
NTSC - 60Hz, 480 lines, NTSC color system
PAL60 - 60Hz, 480 lines, PAL colour system
PAL50 - 50Hz, 576 lines, PAL colour system
The letterboxing on 50Hz games comes from the game only creating 480 lines of resolution but the game system still needing to draw 576 lines to the television.
LCD, Plasma, etc. screens just rescale everything to their native resolution anyway, so no worries there.
If your TV can synchronize the 60Hz signal, PAL60 is always 480 lines fullscreen.
Regarding your question about "non-RGB cord on PAL TV": if you switched to "60Hz", it's very likely that you get an NTSC signal on your HF out because that's the only explanation why you get a b/w picture (your PAL TV doesn't understand the NTSC color encoding). You should also have a bad synchronization due to the 60Hz. So basically: get an RGB cord. Most modern TVs should be able to cope with both 50/60Hz and the color encoding (NTSC or PAL ) is obviously a non-issue with RGB.
Regarding your question about "non-RGB cord on PAL TV": if you switched to "60Hz", it's very likely that you get an NTSC signal on your HF out because that's the only explanation why you get a b/w picture (your PAL TV doesn't understand the NTSC color encoding). You should also have a bad synchronization due to the 60Hz. So basically: get an RGB cord. Most modern TVs should be able to cope with both 50/60Hz and the color encoding (NTSC or PAL ) is obviously a non-issue with RGB.
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Re: Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc
that's what I wanted to knownZero wrote:So, it's 480 lines drawn 60 times a second, spaced slightly further apart than the 576 lines drawn 50 times a second, to make fullscreen 60Hz.
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