Questions about PAL 60, Pal 50, NTSC etc

[Franz the Stampede]

Hello!

A few questions regarding PAL vs NTSC

1) We all know that old PAL 50games sucked:
- The 4:3 NTSC image (480 lines) resulted squashed when displayed on a 4:3 screen that can display up to 576 lines.
- Also, what happened in 1 second in an NTSC game took 1.2 seconds on a PAL 50 game.

Now, I'd like to know how exactly a fullscreen PAL game (PAL 60, but maybe not necessarily, is it possible to have full screen but 50 Hz?) works.
- We know that usually games are (were?) developed in VGA (640×480) resolutions which is 480 lines of proper pixels.
- Now, these 480 horizontal lines can "convert" easily to the 480 lines of NTSC TV.
But what happens with PAL if the game is full screen?
Does the game get "reprogrammed" (or whatever you'd say) to have 576 horizontal lines of pixels (thus increasing the resolution) or those 480 lines get displayed on the 576 TV lines?

2) Slightly related to this, do I need some specific cables to have PAL 60 displayed? Because a few days ago I tried to play VF4 on PS2 (all PAL) using a kinda old TV and a non RGB Scart lead. If I tried to play PAL 60, I got a black and white picture.
TV's fault or cable's fault?

Thanks for any answer

[Michaelm]

But what happens with PAL if the game is full screen?
Does the game get "reprogrammed" (or whatever you'd say) to have 576 horizontal lines of pixels (thus increasing the resolution) or those 480 lines get displayed on the 576 TV lines?

From what I know from the Amiga days:
If you programmed a program that used more than the 480 lines it just wouldn't be displayed in NTSC mode. So I guess that means it should be reprogrammed.

If I tried to play PAL 60, I got a black and white picture.
TV's fault or cable's fault?

Not sure, I know if you try to display NTSC games here in PAL land you need a RGB cable pr it would be displayed black and white.
Definitely the cheapest choice of the two to replace first

[nZero]

Now, I'd like to know how exactly a fullscreen PAL game (PAL 60, but maybe not necessarily, is it possible to have full screen but 50 Hz?) works.

PAL60 has the same number of lines as NTSC, no change needed.
Games that are fullscreen in PAL50 have been reprogrammed.

[ReKleSS]

2) Slightly related to this, do I need some specific cables to have PAL 60 displayed? Because a few days ago I tried to play VF4 on PS2 (all PAL) using a kinda old TV and a non RGB Scart lead. If I tried to play PAL 60, I got a black and white picture.
TV's fault or cable's fault?

Nope, cables don't care about video signal. It's a problem with the TV. Pal 60 is a weird specification in that it uses NTSC timings with e PAL colour encoding, so your TV probably has no idea what's going on.

[Franz the Stampede]

Now, I'd like to know how exactly a fullscreen PAL game (PAL 60, but maybe not necessarily, is it possible to have full screen but 50 Hz?) works.

PAL60 has the same number of lines as NTSC, no change needed.
Games that are fullscreen in PAL50 have been reprogrammed.

I'm sorry but what you are saying seems unlikely. Wasn't the sloppy PAL 50 (slowed down, letterbox) something due to developers being "uninterested" in working to provide better PAL versions?
Even if we assume that at the time all PAL TVs could do only 50 Hz, they still could have worked on having full screen images and the same speed of NTSC games, although at the cost of fluidity/frame rate.

Can you explain what you said more?

Thanks (also to the others )

S: the whole "reprogramming" thing seems really unfeasible to me, on 2D games that would imply redesigning every single sprite, no?

[nZero]

PAL60 has the same number of lines as NTSC, no change needed.
Games that are fullscreen in PAL50 have been reprogrammed.

I'm sorry but what you are saying seems unlikely. Wasn't the sloppy PAL 50 (slowed down, letterbox) something due to developers being "uninterested" in working to provide better PAL versions?
Even if we assume that at the time all PAL TVs could do only 50 Hz, they still could have worked on having full screen images and the same speed of NTSC games, although at the cost of fluidity/frame rate.

Can you explain what you said more?

I don't see the problem?

NTSC - 60Hz, 480 lines, NTSC color system
PAL60 - 60Hz, 480 lines, PAL colour system
PAL50 - 50Hz, 576 lines, PAL colour system

So, converting games to PAL regions when a percentage of the market had 50Hz-only sets meant either:
a) letterboxing and running slower, or
b) letterboxing and adjusting game logic, or
c) redesigning the game for fullscreen and adjusting game speed

Option a) is cheapest, and probably the best return on investment.

[Franz the Stampede]

I don't see the problem?

NTSC - 60Hz, 480 lines, NTSC color system
PAL60 - 60Hz, 480 lines, PAL colour system
PAL50 - 50Hz, 576 lines, PAL colour system

Ok, now I see. So, how do you get fullscreen with PAL 60, since the PAL TV has 576 lines and the game 480?

[nZero]

I don't see the problem?

NTSC - 60Hz, 480 lines, NTSC color system
PAL60 - 60Hz, 480 lines, PAL colour system
PAL50 - 50Hz, 576 lines, PAL colour system

Ok, now I see. So, how do you get fullscreen with PAL 60, since the PAL TV has 576 lines and the game 480?

A CRT TV isn't fixed to a particular number of lines. On a fixed-sync display like a television, the amount of lines able to be drawn in a single frame and the vertical refresh are inversely related. So, it's 480 lines drawn 60 times a second, spaced slightly further apart than the 576 lines drawn 50 times a second, to make fullscreen 60Hz.

The letterboxing on 50Hz games comes from the game only creating 480 lines of resolution but the game system still needing to draw 576 lines to the television.

LCD, Plasma, etc. screens just rescale everything to their native resolution anyway, so no worries there.

[tassian]

If your TV can synchronize the 60Hz signal, PAL60 is always 480 lines fullscreen.

Regarding your question about "non-RGB cord on PAL TV": if you switched to "60Hz", it's very likely that you get an NTSC signal on your HF out because that's the only explanation why you get a b/w picture (your PAL TV doesn't understand the NTSC color encoding). You should also have a bad synchronization due to the 60Hz. So basically: get an RGB cord. Most modern TVs should be able to cope with both 50/60Hz and the color encoding (NTSC or PAL ) is obviously a non-issue with RGB.

[Franz the Stampede]

So, it's 480 lines drawn 60 times a second, spaced slightly further apart than the 576 lines drawn 50 times a second, to make fullscreen 60Hz.

that's what I wanted to know

love you all