Most-Overrated Shmups of All Time Discussion

[To Far Away Times]

Ikaruga on easy is a surprisingly easy 1CC given the game's reputation for toughness. Normal is a good bit harder.

[Rastan78]

I think Ikaruga easy was my first 1CC so it can't be that bad.

[Lethe]

To Far Away Times, what are your opinions on Battle Garegga Type 2, 1945 Part-2, and Lei Shen Zhuan Thunder Deity Biography?

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Lei Shen Zhuan Thunder Deity Biography?

What the fuck? It's real?

[M.Knight]

Lmao, what a thread.
Here's my notes on my votes. For the record, my voting was mostly about games I find overrated by actual shmup players, rather than journos or outsiders, hence the lack of stuff like Ikaruga or Sine Mora.

Spoiler

-Thunder Force 4 [25]

The Thunder Force series as a whole counts, but 4 seems to be the most revered. It's likely an alright game after you know it like the back of your hand, but diving in it blind shows a very clunky and awkward experience. Lots of style, good music, but also a stage design based on almost nothing but annoying cheap shots combined with weapon loss penalties that make it worse, and confusing bosses with extremely poor damage feedback.

If anyone is telling you this game is easy, they are likely to have had nothing else to play as a kid and had all the time in the world to remember everything. In a sense they are not wrong as remembering every single trap will get you far...but you'd have to ask yourself why go through the trouble nowadays.

Technosoft themselves are capable of making more inherently interesting games if Blast Wind is any indication, and that one seems a bit underrated in comparison. Hard to get rose-tinted glasses over this JP Saturn-only game kids didn't have access to I guess.

-Tatsujin [25]

Toaplan as a dev counts, but unlike the biplane games that are mostly solid and very influential (not necessarily fun though) this one's popularity is just incomprehensible. Nostalgia usually is the biggest factor instead of the actual level design and interactive experience.

Actually playing it reveals an incredibly wonky difficulty curve and level design, as a stage can go on for a while with barely anything interesting and exciting happening, and just when you are about to sleep, midbosses with bloated euroshmup HP show up. This kind of flow is just not very satisfying. Just stage 1 itself should be enough to deter anybody looking for excitement from playing it further, it's that bad.

If anyone made a shmup with the same kind of awkward pacing full of dead air or pseudo dead-air (like heavily repetitive copy pasted boring popcorn enemies) without invoking the magic "Toaplan homage" card that spontaneously makes people forgive everything, then who'd bother playing it?



-Thunder Force 3 [13]

Just copy-paste everything I said about TF4, same DNA.

-Musha Aleste [11]

When you think of arcade-style games, you think quality over quantity. But Compile's games are usually the opposite. With bloated stages with repetitive backgrounds, and no engaging scoring systems to make the moment-to-moment gameplay possibly more exciting, these games are some of those rare ones you end up turning off yourselves out of boredom rather than due to a game over.

Nostalgia seems to work a lot in favor of these games, though perhaps they have features that make them a hit among less experienced players but a borefest for more skilled ones, thus explaining the feeling of them being overrated?

Zanac Neo proves the Compile formula and structure can work, and if there's one long Compile shmup that should be played, I'd say it's that one. But it's never mentioned as often as the other Compile games here for some reason. Or maybe I'm just blind.

-Super Aleste [11]

Same deal as Musha Aleste. At least there is a short mode though, to be fair.

-Gun Hed [11]

Same as Musha Aleste. Also add that the Star Soldier influences would make you think there will be some dynamic waves with quick-kills and whatnot, but not really.

-Tatsujin Oh [11]

Due to the difficulty level and due to being a Toaplan game, the game has a specific reputation and aura, which it likely wouldn't have if it was made by most other devs or if the same game came out today.
The pacing is absolutely plodding, waves are recycled ad nauseam and routinely overstay their welcome, the weapons have terrible power, enemies are extremely tanky and unsatisfying to fight, the bosses go on forever and/or are nonsensical, bombs are extremely scarce, etc. Similar flaws as Tatsujin but amplified and with new issues of its own.

Since people were not able to play this game on their Megadrives as kids, there is at least less nostalgia clouding people's judgment on it.

-Tyrian [11]

Beer, carrots and data cubes do not make this game any less painful to actually play. It still is an interesting example of why having content, world-building, humor, etc. can make a shmup more memorable, plenty of devs could learn from that, I assume. But you'd need to have a solid game underneath too.

Perhaps this case is also a generational divide as I can't see newer players rating this one high.



-Batsugun [1]

This game I probably overrate it myself too lmao. It works rather well and is enjoyable to play with good pacing and weapon power, though if you compare it to something other than the rest of the Toaplan library, it's not as incredible as one might be tempted to think. It is still one of the few enjoyable and accessible games in this dev's library, maybe that's also why it has a strong reputation.

-Lords of Thunder [1]

Remove the really cool music and the game doesn't really hold together anymore. There's lots of style and the game's aesthetics are well done, but playing it is another story. Barely any iframes + power loss on hit with a small screen that can get crowded at times is kinda miserable, and said really cool music is drowned by SFX on the actual hardware, so only emulation with readjusted audio settings made it playable under good conditions.

This is just for the PC Engine CD version. I haven't tried the Sega CD version yet, it might fix some of those issues, though in any case the PC Engine CD version is the one that would be overrated.

-Mars Matrix [1]

A pretty solid game with an interesting bullet reflection mechanic which is more flexible than the GigaWing reflect. However, it seems like it's more in people's minds due to the memes rather than because they actually went and played it

-Cho Ren Sha [1]

CRS is a competent dojin shmup, with fast pacing, excellent music, and it's easy to see why people really enjoy it. At the same time, it feels a bit basic as you only have a standard shot and bombs, stages all share the same BG, and the item collection wheel mechanic that could have been unique is kinda solved as picking all three items is always the optimal solution.

Still a pretty nice game that nails the basics and is fun, but you'd probably expect something more I think.

-Battle Garegga [1]

A shmup with a legendary status and superplayers still going ham on it even decades later. That reputation is not completely unjustified since the overall game loop is (accidentally) well crafted, but the lisibility is still very questionable and later YGW games like Batrider, Ibara or MMP expand on the player toolset in ways that give them more personality.

-R-Type [1]

This game has a lot of historical influences, and many copycats (still to this day!). The Force mechanic and bio-horror atmosphere must have been really unique back then.

But if you get rid of nostalgia and the history, the game itself can feel a bit awkward. The Force should be straightforward yet is clunky to get from one side to the other of the ship, and the powerdown on checkpoints does not seem as balanced as in most Gradius games for example. In the end it's still a very playable game but Irem's own Image Fight and R-Type Leo do much cooler things with their pods, expanding on the idea of those useful modules in ways that are more engaging and badass.

-DoDonPachi [1]

Overall a well-made shmup, with no major flaws or anything like that. It makes sense that it's often an introduction to shmups and especially danmaku. It's just a bit...too vanilla? Not a lot of personality. CAVE themselves made shmups with more spectacle, style, with less basic weapon mechanics and scoring systems people can try to interact with more immediately instead of pretending they don't exist.

[Lethe]

It's funny with Cho Ren Sha, I've heard a few seemingly disparate people all make the same claim that it's a subtle masterwork of STG design under the simple surface but I've never had one elaborate on exactly how.

I agree with absolutely everything you've said BTW. Would probably add a [1] for Mushi Futari myself.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

CRS is best summed up as really simple but very satisfying.
The weapon is powerful and functional and never feels weak.
The bombs kick ass and even have a hidden tech you can do.
The powerups have a very cool mechanic that rewards skill and calculation.
Scoring is tied to both speedkilling enemies as well as just surviving.
While not great 24/7, most of the enemy patterns are well thought-out.
Bosses are solid.

I'm sure there's people here that don't like CRS but it has to be pretty rare. Probably someone who doesn't like the really fast patterns. (Note that it probably is objectively overrated. I wouldn't put CRS on the list if I ever voted, but sometimes it does feel like it gets praised too hard. Definitely a great game though.)

[Sengoku Strider]

-Super Aleste [11]

Dude I will cut you

[EmperorIng]

Every compile game is overrated, and this will remain so while people still think they are good.

I kinda like Spriggan though, it must be said.

[DMC]

Spriggan and Golvellius are amazing. I had lots of fun with score attack mode in Spriggan.
Golvellius goes overboard with the "hit random bush and stone to reveal secret door" but it is so damn charming.

I thought Musha Aleste was a bit overrated though, but long time since last run.

I also think TF IV is a bit overrated, but still good, and Strike Force Hydra (the PSX port of a GBA game iirc) is one of the few infamous games that is actually even worse or at least as bad as its reputation.

Other than that, I agree with Enhasa, if I recall his thoughts correctly, that the greatest games are usually a bit overrated (not as perfect as we like them to be) and the worst games are usually a bit underrated (not as bad as we like them to be).

Edit: I too enjoyed reading Rastan's analysis of Darius Gaiden.

[Lethe]

The bombs kick ass and even have a hidden tech you can do.
Scoring is tied to both speedkilling enemies

Is this true anywhere past stage 1? If anything not speedkilling enemies to milk projectiles is more the game's style. Might be wrong, I don't know CRS in and out. The only really subtle thing I can think of is how the green central shot gives more points than the sides, which is a good idea, but nothing worth declaring unique genius over. I guess it's no less incomprehensible than lots of other games' followings.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Is this true anywhere past stage 1?

@bombs
Yeah. There's plenty of places you can use the bomb tech.

Spoiler

which is ramming yourself into enemies for absolutely massive damage while invulnerable.

@speedkill
You'll trigger hidden waves several times by speedkilling. I suppose you can memorize exactly which formations have these secrets but it seems fairly clear that the intent was just having people try to rush everything. If you want to both milk projectiles (ew) and trigger the waves, you'll be memorizing for sure.

[jehu]

Popping back in to say that I think Rastan's defense was a very well-considered rebuttal of my comments on Darius' design decisions. It isn't going to make me fall in love with those elements of the game, my misgivings are still my misgivings, but I do respect the quality of analysis. And - truth be told - I actually do enjoy playing the games, just think people don't mention the jank enough.

I'm surprised no one called me on the autofire comments, I'm not sure I was serious at all about that. It really is kind of a minor miracle that a community of gaming purists have all come together to allow turbo in games not designed around it. Is it really so unlike fighting fans allowing macros, easing the difficulty of the mechanical inputs? I'm squarely in favor of turbo, but it's interesting that there are certain games that become casualties to it. Take Eco Fighters. Not the most taxing game without auto-fire, but it is still interesting enough. At least for me, it loses what charm it has with auto-fire on. All of a sudden certain interesting sections become boring, mechanical and trivial. Auto-fire-off, Eco Fighters suffers from enough braindead sections that the trivialization of some of its more active moments really just kills it. And Eco Fighters is only one of many games that fall victim to it.

On Compile: Everyone I hear from says the same thing about their games. The stages are too long, and the games are too easy either till late in the game, or even through the end. They're good games for early-stage STG fans, but I don't think they're overrated among long-time players. The community seems pretty grounded about their flaws, even if they enjoy an occasional playthrough.

Toaplan's probably a good target for a thread like this. People do really respect the games and overlook the flaws. I do that. Though I don't think imagining that it's all one big nostalgia-delusion is accurate. "You're blinded by nostalgia" is an explanatory magic wand; it potentially works for everything, but has limited explanatory power. Though: "This game sucks so hard you'd have to have been condemned to it as a child to see anything worthwhile there" has a fair bit of power as an emphatic assertion.

Oh, and my next target: Psikyo games. There's a funny phenomenon I've been seeing lately - not so much on system11, more on the Discords - where a particular kind of individual gets hyper-self-congratulatory about playing games they think are overlooked by the community. They imagine themselves to be the enlightened STG gnostics who have risen above the unwashed, pumping-and-dumping masses and the despicable 'grabbers.' They flatter themselves with their own imaginations about their exalted position among the give-my-whole-life-to-this 1% of leet shmuppers. Not to pick too hard on Psikyo; god knows they deserved better than they got with the recent ports. They're well-designed, fun 1CCs, brutal 2-ALLs, interesting mechanics - all that they have. They're overrated not because the games are bad, but because cultivating a 'genuine' appreciation of them is sometimes imagined to serve as a signifier of one's status among the upper-echelons of our niche. There are plenty of other examples of this class of game, I'm sure.

[Sengoku Strider]

Every compile game is overrated

On Compile: They're good games for early-stage STG fans

Ok, I want to see everyone's Power Strike 1CCs.

[jehu]

Ok, I want to see everyone's Power Strike 1CCs.

haha, you know what - fair enough. I admit I had MUSHA, Blazing Lazers, Super Aleste etc. on the brain. Not to mention I most recently encountered Compile banging out a 1CC on the laughably easy Aleste Gaiden. Though, to be fair to my own self - the 16-bitters are usually the games people reference when they're heaping praise on Compile.

Come to think of it, I've never sat down with the intent to try and clear out OG Power Strike. It is a lot more rigorous than Zanac?

[Sengoku Strider]

Come to think of it, I've never sat down with the intent to try and clear out OG Power Strike. It is a lot more rigorous than Zanac?

Yeah, the two games are definitely of the same stripe, but the Master System can push more sprites on screen. It can be pretty ruthless right from the start.

[Angry Hina]

Ok, I want to see everyone's Power Strike 1CCs.

haha, you know what - fair enough. I admit I had MUSHA, Blazing Lazers, Super Aleste etc. on the brain. Not to mention I most recently encountered Compile banging out a 1CC on the laughably easy Aleste Gaiden. Though, to be fair to my own self - the 16-bitters are usually the games people reference when they're heaping praise on Compile.

Come to think of it, I've never sat down with the intent to try and clear out OG Power Strike. It is a lot more rigorous than Zanac?

Don't think so. At first, for sure, Musha but after that, many talk about the 8-Bitters. Especially retro fans praise, how well compile uses the low spec hardwares. Haven't played the 16 bitters myself but the GG Alestes and Power Strike 2 are well done. Even if I think, a game could be a bit harder, I can appreciate a good pacing, hardware usage and good ideas.

[Sengoku Strider]

Don't think so. At first, for sure, Musha but after that, many talk about the 8-Bitters. Especially retro fans praise, how well compile uses the low spec hardwares. Haven't played the 16 bitters myself but the GG Alestes and Power Strike 2 are well done.

What's really impressive is what they pulled off with Gulkave on SG-1000. This is a system that has 1k of RAM and no support for scrolling screens. Or like, anything really.



Fun fact: at 2.8 MB this gif is like 15 times larger than the actual game.

[jehu]

Don't think so. At first, for sure, Musha but after that, many talk about the 8-Bitters. Especially retro fans praise, how well compile uses the low spec hardwares. Haven't played the 16 bitters myself but the GG Alestes and Power Strike 2 are well done. Even if I think, a game could be a bit harder, I can appreciate a good pacing, hardware usage and good ideas.

I must not be reading the same things as you, because I genuinely haven't seen the Compile love spread equally to the 8-bit games. More recently, I've heard an increase in praise for the GG Aleste games - but those, of course, fall into the "you just might accidentally 1CC it on your first try" category. They are damn good technical showpieces, though - even GGA1.

I'm all for 8-bit Compile. And I was surprised that Power Strike 2 didn't get more lasting attention when the Aleste Collection dropped. Before then, I had only been able to play the PAL ver. on my NTSC display - and, even though that added a fair bit of jank, it was still high on the list of my favorite 8-bit shooters. And that game is no pushover, it's true.

Would it be fair to say 8-bit Compile is underrated in relation to the company's 16-bit shadow? I think that's fair.

[Angry Hina]

GG Aleste 2 has some difficult moments. I think most would play some runs before getting the 1cc. GG Aleste 1 otherwise is clearly made for beginners. But this cannot be a bad thing. There must be some STGs to get beginners hooked^^ And this is what it can do kinda well.

[To Far Away Times]

To Far Away Times, what are your opinions on Battle Garegga Type 2, 1945 Part-2, and Lei Shen Zhuan Thunder Deity Biography?

Ah man, how did I miss Type 2? Shame all over.

Spoiler

Honestly, Garegga is fine. Its just as a #1 all time type game I don't think Yagawa games are really at that level. Any game that is at that elite level is going to have solved things like bullet visibility and the devs are going to have been able to 1CC it before releasing it so they know how the rank system would play out and design for it. I mean, Yagawa generally isn't even considered the best director at CAVE.

It's funny with Cho Ren Sha, I've heard a few seemingly disparate people all make the same claim that it's a subtle masterwork of STG design under the simple surface but I've never had one elaborate on exactly how.

I love Cho Ren Sha. There are a few things that really elevate it for me, but lets just get the elephant in the room out of the way... the OST is absolutely legendary. Chrono Cross level. Streets of Rage 2 level. Street Fighter II level. One of the GOATs. An OST of that level is going to do some carrying no matter how strong the other elements are.

With that out of the way, the gameplay is nice and fast paced. It has a comfy not quite a manic, not quite a bullet hell feel. The powerup system is really nice. Shot power is perfect and exceptionally well balanced. And the stages are incredibly well made. Every stage has unique enemies that don't appear elsewhere. There are many "medium size" enemies that fire spreads that aren't too dangerous unless they overlap. Every level has a game design theme and means something. The sprites are really nice too. The only thing I can really knock it for is the short looping background, but even that has a narrative purpose and its still very easy to tell what stage you are in; due to how strong the music and stage design is. One of my absolute favorite games ever.

[SPM]

^ The game is good, fast paced and with a great OST, I agree, but I have 2 big gripes with it:

- The way waves behave makes it feel repetitive, long and not organic at all. (it's like a better Truxton II)
- Bullets visibility and missiles, not a fan either. (with a different shot type this wouldn't be a problem, but you can't change that afaik)

Removing the "mirrored", the repeated and the filler waves, and making it less symmetrical (which is enhanced by the BG as well) the game would be much better IMO.

Yeah... I think I'd put it in this list if I ever did one.

[Sengoku Strider]

GG Aleste 2 has some difficult moments. I think most would play some runs before getting the 1cc. GG Aleste 1 otherwise is clearly made for beginners. But this cannot be a bad thing. There must be some STGs to get beginners hooked^^ And this is what it can do kinda well.

Kids clearly were seen as the primary audience for the Game Gear in general. But the thing with the GG Aleste games is that they had to be designed for that blurry-ass tiny Game Gear screen. There's only so much you can expect from players on that thing.

[Angry Hina]

Would like to see a GG Aleste 2 1cc on this display^^

[EmperorIng]

Let's keep going. Eschatos. Overrated to the extreme. People liked it because it was 3D, didn't look like shit (only kinda), and gave you extends every 15 seconds so you didn't have to worry about dodging.

[Sima Tuna]

Toaplan games are shit and overrated except for the super late era ones. Toaplan plays like garbage. If I want to be punched in the dick by a shmup, I'll play Raiden and get better music.

There, that's my inflammatory opinion.

[jehu]

Let's keep going. Eschatos. Overrated to the extreme. People liked it because it was 3D, didn't look like shit (only kinda), and gave you extends every 15 seconds so you didn't have to worry about dodging.

Well yeah, the music stuck with you and it carved a path forward for 3D STG design (that never really caught on) - but I think I agree with you if you're saying the gameplay is too watery. I've gotten sucked into it, but it's like a sugar rush that dies on you pretty quick.

Toaplan games are shit and overrated except for the super late era ones. Toaplan plays like garbage. If I want to be punched in the dick by a shmup, I'll play Raiden and get better music.

There, that's my inflammatory opinion.

You've got the spiteful energy right, and I'd be honored to be the one to respond with a multi-paragraph defensive rant - but it has to be more detailed than crowning them with the title: Toaplan, the Dick Puncher.

If I've gathered anything from hearing the 'CBT' joke for the Nth time, it's that we enjoy that kind of thing round these parts.

[To Far Away Times]

Eschatos is the bestest. It feels really unique and quirky in a good way. It's like the developer's personality coming through within the game, similar to most Treasure games.

The OST is tops. And the way the game uses its 3D backgrounds is really cool and creates an advantage for moving to 3D. It's not really an easy game for me? It took me a little less than 20 hours to beat it, so the difficulty was pretty nice for me. Not too hard, not too easy. I dunno, I think its about perfect.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

As someone who really likes Eschatos I have to say that I wish it had more interesting weapons. Still it's damned good.

[Lethe]

Let's keep going. Eschatos. Overrated to the extreme. People liked it because it was 3D, didn't look like shit (only kinda), and gave you extends every 15 seconds so you didn't have to worry about dodging.

You mean "gave you an overpowered shield so you didn't have to worry about dodging". The extends are for the clear bonus.

Games in the current top 25 yet to be mentioned here:

Spoiler

Ketsui
DOJ
Batrider
ZeroRanger <- Prime suspect. Though its rating isn't surprising given how wide the game's net falls. With such a nonspecific style it's naturally going to get voted for a lot.
Dangun Feveron <- Tertiary suspect?
Mushi <- Plays about as generic as it gets but that's fine, something's got to do it.
ESP Ra.De. <- Other tertiary suspect?
Gradius Gaiden
ESPGaluda <- Secondary suspect
RayForce