Racketboy "Defining Shmups" Article - IT'S UP!

[BulletMagnet]

I would mention Parodius alongside Twinbee, since they cross over in a number of ways.

Parodius will definitely be mentioned someplace, though I'm unsure whether it belongs next to Gradius or Twinbee (both would kinda be overkill, methinks).

You might want to mention Mushihimesama Futari as an example of a more recent shmup that doesn't have any obvious flaws.

Hm...Futari is definitely one of the more popular "recent" shooters out there, and it was Cave's first attempt at going region-free, but I'm not completely sold...one could just as easily nominate Deathsmiles as the harbinger of a "new era" of shmupping, I think. Any additional thoughts?

I nominate Xenon II as the 'definitive' euroshmup - with Tyrian and D-Hero as derivatives.

Again, this isn't my scene, so I'll need some more debate from those in the know on this one.

I'm pretty sure Sonic Wings/Aero Fighters 2 is a better known Neo Geo shmup than Twinkle Star Sprites. Since the latter isn't really influential (which is a shame of course), I don't get why it's there.

I mainly included TSS because it always seems to elicit a lot of "ohh, I remember that one, my girlfriend and I played it at the old arcade" sort of comments - I've had the impression that it's made more inroads into the "mainstream" than most shooters due to its unusual setup, though admittedly it is an outlier for this list in any event.

Would be the first post-shmup too (a shmup-like game that is not about shooting anymore), unless Vasara predates it.

I'm sure you can go a ways further back than that, though I don't plan to go too far into it for this particular article.

I'm also sure that saucy AI of Toaplan and Seibu shmups is the Galaga's heritage. Namco pioneered intricate enemy behaviour patterns in their games, and Galaga is as iconic as they get.

Hmm...though Galaga was a step up, I'm not sure that including both it and Space Invaders would work, considering how rapidly genre advances were happening during that period.

No way would I include: Shiki or Psyvariar - grazing was done before them and it's such a small factor to begin with.

I'm kind of leaning in this direction myself, but I'll leave the floor open for a bit longer on this one.

Gigawing is tough to say, not only did it have the reflect (which again I think is fairly unsubstantial in the grand scheme of things), but it did have curtains of medals in ways which I don't think were seen prior. Still, putting it next to R-type, Gradius, Donpachi etc is kinda a joke, wouldn't you say?

What did ikaruga bring to the table?

I'm mainly interested in mentioning these two because both stood out enough to produce a decent-scale reaction from the gaming community at large: Giga Wing became infamous for how over-the-top it was (especially to non-shmuppers), while Ikaruga took a relatively simple concept and made it attractive to gamers usually put off by anything requiring less than 10 buttons and 60 hours to play properly. As the intro post says, RB wants games that come up in conversations about shooters, for whatever reason, and I think both at least potentially qualify.

Has Capcoms 1941/2 been mentioned, It is certainy the war based shmup. I'm actually not sure with of the 194X games was first, bit I think one should have spot on the list.

It's on the short list: if it makes the final cut I'd probably end up focusing on 1942, as it's the first and best-known, though obviously there's room for the entire series.

The Strikers games are good, but adding them in just seems like an excuse to include Psikyo

They sort of are, but at the same time I'd be willing to bet that more people saw one or more of the Strikers 1945 series in the lobby of the local movie theater than most any other shmup you could name, which probably counts for something. At the very least they deserve a mention next to the 194X stuff.

Keep the comments coming, guys - I will get to the "Hidden Gems" topic soon, I promise!

[Paradigm]

At the very least they deserve a mention next to the 194X stuff.

I like this idea. I actually missed 194X on the maybe list and think it deserves a spot on the main list with 1942 (as you say) being the game of choice.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'd be willing to bet that more people saw one or more of the Strikers 1945 series in the lobby of the local movie theater than most any other shmup you could name, which probably counts for something.

Indeed, Raidens and Stikers 1945 were probably the last coin-op shmups to be seen in the parts of world where arcades are dead in the water now, or even the last shmups you could by a long stretch call "mainstream".

[Estebang]

From my experience, Raiden and Life Force (specifically the NES version) are the only names likely to come up when the average gamer is grilled on shmups.

Gradius and R-Type seem to have largely faded from popular memory.

[Herr Schatten]

From my experience, Raiden and Life Force (specifically the NES version) are the only names likely to come up when the average gamer is grilled on shmups.

Gradius and R-Type seem to have largely faded from popular memory.

I think this only applies to the US. In Europe, Raiden didn't make much of an impact. I actually have no idea what would be considered the seminal vert around here. It's quite the same with Life Force. A few people know it, but it doesn't seem to stand out in the memories of most of them. On the other hand, absolutely everyone remembers R-Type. Not quite as many, but still a lot of people do remember Gradius too, albeit they would probably call it Nemesis.

I nominate Xenon II as the 'definitive' euroshmup - with Tyrian and D-Hero as derivatives.

Again, this isn't my scene, so I'll need some more debate from those in the know on this one.

'Definitive' - yes. ‘Defining‘ - no.
Xenon II encompasses practically everything that is usually associated with the term 'Euroshmup', but it didn't invent those elements. It's more or less just the game where they all came together.

[Randorama]

I think this only applies to the US. In Europe, Raiden didn't make much of an impact. I actually have no idea what would be considered the seminal vert around here.

Flying Shark, Truxton, 1943 were all over the place, at least in Italy. In the early '90s, I can clearly remember that Taito's F3 titles (especially Rayforce, Grid Seeker), 19XX and the first two Sonic Wings had a decent release, as well as the Konami GX incarnation of Twin Bee. Also, Raystorm was relatively popular.

From that point onwards, the genre faded away.

Also +1 on R-Type. I swear that in 1987/1988, if there was a cab in some obscure pub/bar in the middle of nowhere, then it had R-Type in it.

[Treasurance]

however it wasn't until 2007 when Hellsinker invented a GOOD SHMUP. DiadraEmpty and CC came after it (and perhaps DFK)

[Observer]

Hellsinker was in development since 2004. Diadra Empty was in development for a couple of years prior to its release. The dates in the case say 2007-2008. And it seems Crimzon Clover was in development since 2005. "Good shmup" existed since 1994 when Siter Skain was doing Alltynex for FM Towns, taking the idea of CyBattler and making things a bit less cheap

By the way, the Aleste series... I keep hearing them outside of this place, especially for the multiple shots and accessibility (it really isn't as hard as many other shooters) and, well, the SNES version seemed to be pretty popular back then. I would put them in. If anything, it would be a series that marked the culmination of the "well-rounded"/normal vertical shooters with multiple power ups and options, prior to the proto bullet hell shooters, aka, Batsugun and stuff.

Or something along those lines.

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

I nominate Xenon II as the 'definitive' euroshmup - with Tyrian and D-Hero as derivatives.

Again, this isn't my scene, so I'll need some more debate from those in the know on this one.

'Definitive' - yes. ‘Defining‘ - no.
Xenon II encompasses practically everything that is usually associated with the term 'Euroshmup', but it didn't invent those elements. It's more or less just the game where they all came together.

Agree - BUT the article does ask for "the ones that are the biggest names/brands in the genre. Ones that you almost can't ignore when talking about the genre."Xenon II was both widely copied and very well known. I think it easily qualifies for the list.

Citing Spadgy's TV spot as an example of it being well known.

[Bananamatic]

however it wasn't until 2007 when Hellsinker invented a GOOD SHMUP. DiadraEmpty and CC came after it (and perhaps DFK)

radio zonde?

[Herr Schatten]

Xenon II was both widely copied and very well known. I think it easily qualifies for the list.

If you put it that way, I agree.

[TransatlanticFoe]

Flying Shark and Twin Cobra were all over UK holiday amusement arcades in the 80s and early 90s. I think a Toaplan section is definitely worthwhile - the "old school" tends to be somewhat forgotten after bullet hell and theirs were generally a cut above the rest. Then you consider where they took the genre...

But if you're going game-specific for influences it's hard to pick one out over the others (Batsugun aside).

Aleste I'd certainly put in for the home market influence.

[AttObl]

Bring the Darius series up as one of the Defining Shmups, since it's boss warnings are very famous. You can also choose multiple paths, which helps a lot.

Xevious is also fine, since you can attack both air and ground targets. I think that's rather innovative.

On the subject of Compile, I don't mind if Zanac or Aleste are included, but at least include one of these games. (Although I'm probably leaning toward Aleste.)

[J-Manic]

both the Darius and Ray series' are a MUST!

[BulletMagnet]

Okay, the first post has been revised - let me know what you think of the current layout as opposed to the original one.

[Observer]

Looking good! I still think that you should really put Tyrian and Raptor since they are "defining" western schmukmups. Like I said, people can hate them all they want but you name an emblematic western PC shooter and the answer will be Tyrian or Raptor or both.

They are encrusted in the general hive mind or for multipurpose name-dropping/cool points.

[Moniker]

I agree that Tyrian & Raptor merit mention.

I also think Toaplan deserves at least a footnote; maybe Batsugun in the DonPachi section. Do all of the entries have to be series? If you're leaning towards series only, why leave Garegga by itself? Just a question; I don't think BB or APB *need* to be mentioned so long as BG is covered. Then again, you could reduce just about all of the series to their seminal title, saving the 19-- series, of course. Gradius, R-Type, Twinbee, Raiden, *DonPachis & Touhou (Windows) haven't evolved all that much from their first installments.

[BulletMagnet]

I also think Toaplan deserves at least a footnote; maybe Batsugun in the DonPachi section.

Batsugun will definitely get a mention as you say, but there's plenty of support for earlier Toaplan shooters getting some of their own coverage, so we'll probably have to figure out something along those lines as well.

Do all of the entries have to be series? If you're leaning towards series only, why leave Garegga by itself?

Not every entry has to be a series, but RB told me to play it safe and offer series coverage when applicable. I left Garegga by itself because 1) It's pretty much certainly THE Raizing shooter in most players' minds, and definitely the one that put "rank" on the map, and 2) It really isn't part of a series in any notable sense (Bakraid doesn't really count as a sequel IMO, save for the fact that "Battle" is also in its name). I'll probably namedrop another Raizing shmup or two in its paragraph, but Garegga is definitely the focus.

[jepjepjep]

I also think Toaplan deserves at least a footnote; maybe Batsugun in the DonPachi section.

Batsugun will definitely get a mention as you say, but there's plenty of support for earlier Toaplan shooters getting some of their own coverage, so we'll probably have to figure out something along those lines as well.

Toaplan is tough because in addition to Batsugun, it has several successful mini-series' like Tiger series (Tiger Heli/Twin Cobra/Twin Cobra II), Flying Shark/Fire Shark, and the legendary Truxton/Tatsujin and its sequel. I'd argue that Toaplan was very influential in the genre, more so than something like the Touhou series.

Not every entry has to be a series, but RB told me to play it safe and offer series coverage when applicable. I left Garegga by itself because 1) It's pretty much certainly THE Raizing shooter in most players' minds, and definitely the one that put "rank" on the map, and 2) It really isn't part of a series in any notable sense (Bakraid doesn't really count as a sequel IMO, save for the fact that "Battle" is also in its name). I'll probably namedrop another Raizing shmup or two in its paragraph, but Garegga is definitely the focus.

That sounds like a good strategy. I agree that Garegga can definitely stand on its own. Although could add a sentence like "... it inspired such pseudo-sequels as Armed Police Batrider, Battle Bakraid, Ibara, and Pink Sweets."

[J-Manic]

Hmmm... don't you think Batsugun deserves to be on there somewhere?

[Zeron]

Was not Giga Wing the first arcade shooter to include those dialog cutscenes we all like to skip?

[Obiwanshinobi]

Was not Giga Wing the first arcade shooter to include those dialog cutscenes we all like to skip?

Nah, Twinkle Star Prites and Cotton: Fantastic Night Dreams are earlier examples. Doujin games tend to be wordy as well.

[kennyrh]

I think you need to consider the Cho Aniki games - particularly the PC Engine CD versions - because they defined "weird" and on my weird shit-ometer they rate 11 on a scale of 1 to 10.

And, talking of the good ol' PCE, I know the Star Soldier series have been mentioned but I think Gunhed deserves consideration all on its own.

[professor ganson]

touhou? --> strikers!
star soldier? --> zanac!

That said, I like the general idea and most of the selections.

[finisherr]

Definitely add Galaga? i might mention futari simply because i think it may be responsible for a recent growth in the interest in shmups with that Hardest Video Game Boss Ever YouTube video. But then, I guess that would be more of a defining moment in shmup history instead of a defining shmup.

[Bee Cool]

Are you going to/have you made an article listing the modern shmups? This genre is pretty unknown to even the Racketboy community, and it would be great to show them the offerings that Cave, Raizing etc. have put out. Almost all shmups are unheard of in any other gaming community, regardless of how much we consider them to be well known. If the purpose of these guides is to introduce someone to shmups it is a disservice to not give them info on all of these great games.

[BulletMagnet]

I think you need to consider the Cho Aniki games - particularly the PC Engine CD versions - because they defined "weird" and on my weird shit-ometer they rate 11 on a scale of 1 to 10.

You know, the thought did cross my mind, as Cho Aniki has reached the level of semi-infamy even amongst some non-shmuppers...I'll throw it up there just for the heck of it, heh.

And, talking of the good ol' PCE, I know the Star Soldier series have been mentioned but I think Gunhed deserves consideration all on its own.

Blazing Lazers is fondly remembered by most who've played it, but I don't think it quite qualifies as "defining".

Are you going to/have you made an article listing the modern shmups?

I (and, by extension, the community here) just take on the assignments Racketboy sends me, heh.

I think it's about time we attempted to hammer out a more-or-less "final" list for this one: speak now, or forever hold your peace if you have anything to say on the matter!

[BulletMagnet]

Okay, I'm hoping to get into the nitty-gritty of this thing soon, if only so I can focus on the increasingly-intimidating "Hidden Gems" article without distractions afterwards, so I've re-edited the first post into what I'd consider a "near-final" list of included series. Here's my rationale behind the changes I've made:

- While Galaga was a definite evolution over Space Invaders, I think covering it separately would be overkill (especially since it took Galaxian to get there) - I'm leaning in the direction of mentioning it to a lesser extent within the Invaders section.

- Zanac came before Aleste and (someone correct me if I'm wrong) pioneered the "dynamic enemy pattern" mechanic, so I gave it the nod, though I'll probably give Aleste a bit of coverage as Compile's most prolific series.

- Tatsujin, on the other hand, while not a major "step up" from Flying Shark and Kyukyoku Tiger in many ways, did introduce the "chunky" graphical style that tends to be associated with Toaplan in retrospect (not to mention the intimidating title recalling the games' famous difficulty level), so I figured that it would serve as the best jumping-off point for the rest of the company's work.

- I decided to just bundle Raptor and Tyrian together, despite their lack of a "direct" relationship to each other, thanks to their many shared "Euro" elements and enduring popularity - I might give Xenon 2 a quick tip of the hat in this section, but I doubt I could justify a heckuva lot more than that.

- Considering that RB's corresponding article for the fighting genre includes a couple of "honorable mentions" at the bottom, I figured that would be a good place to put a couple of the "maybes" listed before - at the moment I'd like to include Giga Wing (for scaring the heck out of Dreamcast-era shmuppers and making them think manic shooters are impossible), Twinkle Star Sprites (for putting enough of a twist on shooting to create a cult hit), Zero Wing (for the "All Your Base" meme), and Cho Aniki (for overall manly infamy). I'm semi-tempted by Mushi Futari ("hardest boss ever", first region-free 360 shooter), but not 100 percent convinced yet - Psyvariar, unfortunately, will probably have to be cut.

That's where I stand at present: if you have any last-minute objections and/or omissions, now's the time to bring them up, as I want to make this a list that the entire forum can be at least mostly comfortable with. Let's get this thing done!

[Estebang]

I think you've got a very well-represented list put together. I know you're including it with the Tatsujin writeup, but I would give special mention to Batsugun for being the first Toaplan-descended shmup that doesn't loop infinitely, which was carried over into every shmup made afterwards with a loop (as far as I know). Consider that a majority of arcade games made up until this point only ended when the player lost all lives. I believe the developers had realized that players were getting good enough to survive much longer than expected and counterstop the score (which has been done by numerous people in Out Zone, among other games), so they decided that they needed to force a game over at some point.

I would give Psyvariar 1/2 and Homura a tiny mention for being the only major Korean-developed shmups.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Aero Fighters should get an honorable mention since it is the predecessor to Strikers, and was the first to use that random level order Psikyo is well-known for. 2nd and 3rd ones are amongst the best the NeoGeo had going in terms of shmups too. Also, I'm not the biggest fan of Gaiares myself, but that should get a mention too considering how well-renowned that was back in the day.