A Community Question

[MaximumCrash]

Hello! I am currently in development of a new shmup that caters to playing aggressively.
Yet, I want it to feel fresh and new by introducing a newer way to play shmups.

My question is why are shmups fun for you and why do certain shmups last longer than others?

[n0rtygames]

I am going to sound like the biggest asshole imaginable - but since you are looking for an honest answer...

My question is why are shmups fun for you and why do certain shmups last longer than others?

A good shmup is fun to me because it doesn'tr try to do this:-

new by introducing a newer way to play shmups.

For me personally, if you start going beyond 2/3 buttons - 4 is really my maximum. If you make your shooting game about anything more than shooting enemies and dodging bullets, I'm not gonna have fun with it. If you drastically change the control scheme so that it can be enjoyed on hardware that is not an arcade stick, I am very unlikely to have fun with it.

I enjoy shmups because they are balls hard. They're simple and easy to learn, but extremely difficult to master. I got really sucked in to shmups because of bullet hell games like many others and through bullet hell - discovered the joy of more classic shooters and am particularly fond of Yagawa games these days.

A shmup should have:
* Nice explosions
* Nice sounds
* The feeling of actually shooting and blowing stuff up
* Responsiveness to the player for scoring
* Visual confirmation that the player is doing well with on screen debris, point items, flashes etc

Another factor, shmups tend to last longer due to popularity and competition. Most people here respect the whole point of the one credit clear. These games were designed to be played on arcade machines. It's about being able to put a coin in the machine and beat the game like a boss. Turning around in an arcade and perhaps seeing people watching you play, knowing you just did something awesome then walking off with your gf/friends/whoever to go watch a movie.

The fact that we play these games on home consoles or on emulators shouldn't really ever detract from that. So the short version of the answer to your question?

Q. Why do you play shmups?
A. Because I can be a badass and save the world

[BareKnuckleRoo]

A good shmup doesn't necessarily have to reinvent the genre, but a good shmup can easily become a bad shmup with sloppy mechanics. A lack of autofire's usually frustrating in a modern shmup, giant hitboxes aren't fun, the game really needs to have customizable controls, inertia is rarely if ever a good thing... and so on. If you do try to make something unique, make sure that, above all else, it's a polished effort.

The thing that makes good shmups stand the test of time and get frequent playtime? A good scoring system. Just look at the more popular hi score threads and you'll see the games that are most active are the ones that have well thought-out scoring.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=2

[Formless God]

why are shmups fun for you

For me, shooting games are the most fun when they make the player do something other than just attacking or defending. I'm talking about the scoring mechanism. Not only does it prevent repetition (most of the time), it dramatically extends the games' replayability value. It doesn't have to be ~deep~, but it needs to make button tapping and screen reading fun.

why do certain shmups last longer than others

It depends. Maybe they are hard to play for survival, for score, or both. The safest way is to just make everything balls to the wall hard. Tears are delicious. Drink them.

[MaximumCrash]

I am going to sound like the biggest asshole imaginable - but since you are looking for an honest answer...

My question is why are shmups fun for you and why do certain shmups last longer than others?

A good shmup is fun to me because it doesn'tr try to do this:-

new by introducing a newer way to play shmups.

For me personally, if you start going beyond 2/3 buttons - 4 is really my maximum. If you make your shooting game about anything more than shooting enemies and dodging bullets, I'm not gonna have fun with it. If you drastically change the control scheme so that it can be enjoyed on hardware that is not an arcade stick, I am very unlikely to have fun with it.

I enjoy shmups because they are balls hard. They're simple and easy to learn, but extremely difficult to master. I got really sucked in to shmups because of bullet hell games like many others and through bullet hell - discovered the joy of more classic shooters and am particularly fond of Yagawa games these days.

A shmup should have:
* Nice explosions
* Nice sounds
* The feeling of actually shooting and blowing stuff up
* Responsiveness to the player for scoring
* Visual confirmation that the player is doing well with on screen debris, point items, flashes etc

Another factor, shmups tend to last longer due to popularity and competition. Most people here respect the whole point of the one credit clear. These games were designed to be played on arcade machines. It's about being able to put a coin in the machine and beat the game like a boss. Turning around in an arcade and perhaps seeing people watching you play, knowing you just did something awesome then walking off with your gf/friends/whoever to go watch a movie.

The fact that we play these games on home consoles or on emulators shouldn't really ever detract from that. So the short version of the answer to your question?

Q. Why do you play shmups?
A. Because I can be a badass and save the world

You don't come off as an asshole at all! I came to ask thr entire community why it loves what it does best, play shmups. I love your honesty. I plan on keeping the very aspects that make dodonpachi, g Darius, and others very exciting and worth completing. No one likes gimmicks. What people seem to like is choice and flexibility. I want to give players a choice on which way they can show how badass they are. Thank you for your response!

[Cagar]

why are shmups fun for you and why do certain shmups last longer than others?

The concept is just good, this shines especially well in fairly designed shmups where you can literally complete the game on your first try without any pre-knowledge, while someone else struggles at stage 1.
It's much like rhythm games, I just enjoy the feeling of overcoming challenges and the addicting shmup-rage.
Competitive reasons like high scoring is included in those 'challenges' too, so I could say that any visual sweetness doesn't really swing my thoughts about a shmup in a way or another, it's just the gameplay and balance that matters.
but I am aware though how important this is for many other players

[n0rtygames]

so I could say that any visual sweetness doesn't really swing my thoughts about a shmup in a way or another, it's just the gameplay and balance that matters.

This is such rubbish Cagar

Graphics do matter. Yeah okay - you CAN enjoy a game without good graphics. But if a game has good gameplay and good graphics you're gonna enjoy it. You like Crimzon Clover - why? Because its pretty as hell. You keep saying on my stream that I need to add more glow to something

btw:
http://25.media.tumblr.com/44bf18ac50cc ... 1_1280.jpg

When you see new art on my stream, you're always "omg, these graphics!" and yeah I gotta hand it to the art dudes - it's pretty damned nice if I may say so. Point is, I dunno why you're on the "I'm so hardcore I could play with ascii characters biatch" wagon. Nobody really feels that way. Everyone would like good graphics.

I think you've misinterpreted the need for explosions as meaning we dont give a crap about score. If that's the case - I'll upload a video to youtube later on replacing all the graphics in my game with simple single coloured geometric shapes, strip out all of the sounds and graphical effects - make it have single 1 frame explosions that are a circle and no particles at all. Then I'll send you that as your demo build you keep asking for.

The point is that feel is actually more than just graphics you see. You can have a whole bunch of things that feel good using very simplistic graphics. I've praised your mods to TW3 for having this stuff in. Even if you did use single colour shapes - you could still do other stuff like having little hit particles come off when you shoot the enemies that were also little pixelly square things and a cute little "phut" sound as the bullets hit.

One of the biggest things about gaming in any genre where things get competitive - is the synergy between human being, input device and game. The game needs to give you some kinda feedback that your senses can interpret. A sound for hitting something, a crunchier sound when something dies - a nice 'plink!' sound when you pick up a score item. Single sounds played at a time that interrupt each other rather than overlapping so you can "feel" each individual pickup adding more to your score.

These are part of the gameplay - because you as a player are a part of the game. y u no get?

[Cagar]

but I am aware though how important this is for many other players

[n0rtygames]

Okay, one build coming up with all the graphics and stripped out... Enjoy da hitboxes

[Cagar]

This is such rubbish Cagar

"ur opinion is rubbish" ok?

You like Crimzon Clover - why?
Because its pretty as hell.

No, but because my score got better every run for around 100 runs. It is pretty though yeah I think so and can easily admit it, but it's far from the reason why I like the game.

You keep saying on my stream that I need to add more glow to something

Highlighting important gameplay-elements is important.

When you see new art on my stream, you're always "omg, these graphics!" and yeah I gotta hand it to the art dudes - it's pretty damned nice if I may say so. Point is, I dunno why you're on the "I'm so hardcore I could play with ascii characters biatch" wagon.

Yeah so what? It has good graphics.
I know this wagon you're talking about, but I'm not part of it. I don't think that I'm 'hardcore'
I say it from the heart, not from any pride-related bandwagon; I don't care about graphics looking cool or good, I care them about being clean so that you can spot important gameplay-elements all the time, glow is the most effective way to do this, I think.

I think you've misinterpreted the need for explosions as meaning we dont give a crap about score. If that's the case - I'll upload a video to youtube later on replacing all the graphics in my game with simple single coloured geometric shapes, strip out all of the sounds and graphical effects - make it have single 1 frame explosions that are a circle and no particles at all. Then I'll send you that as your demo build you keep asking for.

Really, do, I would appreciate it.
It's not the same game as i might get some visual advantage or disadvantage without the same graphics though

The point is that feel is actually more than just graphics you see.

Yep, I know

[n0rtygames]

"ur opinion is rubbish" ok?

No, not your opinion. The notion that graphics are unimportant

[n0rtygames]

Hello! I am currently in development of a new shmup that caters to playing aggressively.
Yet, I want it to feel fresh and new by introducing a newer way to play shmups.

My question is why are shmups fun for you and why do certain shmups last longer than others?

btw, back to the original point - but hopefully this has all been good food for thought because valid points are raised both sides:-

Make the shooter that YOU actually want to play - do not attempt to cater for a barrage of opinions saying "I want this, that.. this is important.." - because you will end up with a very bad game. Make the game you want to make and you will most likely end up with something awesome.

By all means take advice on specifics. IE you might implement a rank system and want feedback on how arcade implementations work - stuff like that. But really just follow your own nose and take all opinions (mine included) with a pinch of salt

[Pteriforever]

I agree with n0rtygames. Keep your artistic vision pure if you can ^.^ If you think something is both fun and makes sense from a game design perspective, go for it

[BareKnuckleRoo]

"ur opinion is rubbish" ok?

No, not your opinion. The notion that graphics are unimportant

Personally, if the game is good, then graphics are unimportant. Maybe not entirely unimportant, but I've played a lot of good games with ASCII art, minimalistic art, or frankly bad/ugly art. If the game's good, good graphics will make it look that much better and the experience will be more enjoyable, but good graphics will not, ever, make a bad game any more fun.

Examples: Area Flat (1, 2 and 3 all apply), noiz2sa, Guxt

That being said, even minimalistic art can be done in a really slick style which all of those I'd say are, so I guess in that case it'd still be considered good art. You can keep it simple and still make a really good looking game without having to make a ton of art assets.

[MaximumCrash]

Hello! I am currently in development of a new shmup that caters to playing aggressively.
Yet, I want it to feel fresh and new by introducing a newer way to play shmups.

My question is why are shmups fun for you and why do certain shmups last longer than others?

btw, back to the original point - but hopefully this has all been good food for thought because valid points are raised both sides:-

Make the shooter that YOU actually want to play - do not attempt to cater for a barrage of opinions saying "I want this, that.. this is important.." - because you will end up with a very bad game. Make the game you want to make and you will most likely end up with something awesome.

By all means take advice on specifics. IE you might implement a rank system and want feedback on how arcade implementations work - stuff like that. But really just follow your own nose and take all opinions (mine included) with a pinch of salt

Oh of course! I simple wanted to do a little research and make the attempt at appealing to hardcore shmup players and casuals. So why not go to the best community for shmups! Thank you all for your wonderful replies, it is greatly appreciated!

[n0rtygames]

Personally, if the game is good, then graphics are unimportant. Maybe not entirely unimportant, but I've played a lot of good games with ASCII art, minimalistic art, or frankly bad/ugly art. If the game's good, good graphics will make it look that much better and the experience will be more enjoyable, but good graphics will not, ever, make a bad game any more fun.

I'm not saying graphics will make a bad game more fun. But bad graphics sure can detract from an otherwise good game.

To be clear:
Good graphics do not mean everything has to be awesome pixel art, it can be nice and simple. Clean, well presented. They can be minimalist - but not quite to the extent of some of the shots you posted. I kinda hate that, personally and am unlikely to play a game with that graphical style because it simply doesn't appeal. It could be the greatest game ever mechanically, but if it comes down to the choice between a full screen battleship with missile launchers vs simple geometric shapes - I'm gonna take the battleship.

Nastywolverine's game, One-two and Score Rush are good examples of games that use a minimalist style but actually look nice. Not so keen on one-two's bomb, but the actual shooting feels good.

However, we're talking about an ideal and perfect game here and in my idea of a perfect game - it would also have good graphics.

[nasty_wolverine]

I think there is a confusion between bad, minimalist and experimental art.

The latter two can be "good" when done well, the former for the lack of a better word is "bad".
Giest's game art is minimalist but doesnt distract, the cagar labels are more tending towards experimental, minimalist shapes with certain effects(blurs, halos and what not). ABA games take the throne when speaking of experimental/minimalist art. He makes lines look good, it has style and flavour.

Bad art is something which makes you put down the controller even though the gameplay is good.
One counter example I can think of, a good game with bad art that you will actually enjoy playing are Gustavs game. But they are meant to be a parody anyway.