XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Fudoh]

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 81#p980881

[Holograph]

It's quite a lot better. Although within limits, as the N64 has notoriously bad graphics and features some of the worst textures ever seen to mankind

Does the N64 look really bad in comparison to other systems or in comparison to an N64 on a CRT? I don't remember the N64 ever looking that good so I'm not expecting it to suddenly look like a PS3 but I also don't want it looking noticeably worse than it used to on my parents' crappy old CRT like I remember.

The problem is that the jump to 3d required a lot more computational power and while Playstation and Saturn weren't amazing at 3d either, the N64 was the worst at it. Several poor decisions made in its design - probably to keep cost down, because Nintendo hardware has always leaned far more towards the cheap side than the well-performing side.

Editing to add this link for the idiots below saying ridiculous things like "emulation is always inferior" (LOL): http://textures.emulation64.com/index.php?id=downloads - go look for videos of this stuff in use on Youtube.

[CkRtech]

I modified my N64 for RGB and use it with the mini. I am not really a scanlines guy, but the N64 may be one of the systems that demands it. I can't really get used to it and tend to switch back and forth between scanlines or none, but it does help out soften the blow with that low res 3D of the N64.

[eightbitminiboss]

I modified my N64 for RGB and use it with the mini. I am not really a scanlines guy, but the N64 may be one of the systems that demands it. I can't really get used to it and tend to switch back and forth between scanlines or none, but it does help out soften the blow with that low res 3D of the N64.

Yep, that's the main reason I'm waiting for Micomsoft to fix the 1080p scanlines.

Yes, I could do 720p but eh...

[Konsolkongen]

720p is just fine, if the scaler in your TV is good.

[BuckoA51]

The problem is that the jump to 3d required a lot more computational power and while Playstation and Saturn weren't amazing at 3d either, the N64 was the worst at it.

I don't think that's true at all, in fact on paper at least the N64 was the most advanced of all that generations consoles. Easily better than the Saturn at 3D (compare Quake on the N64 vs the Saturn for instance). I don't know of any 3D games as technically advanced as Perfect Dark on the PS1 either.

I think the PS1 had more texture memory (and storage space for textures thanks to the CD format), but the reason for the N64 looking so bad on modern TV's is a combination of low quality video output and the hardware anti-aliasing that Nintendo designed for the low-resolution CRT's that were around at the time.

[Xyga]

Hey I think I've seen pictures of 'wrong' RGB mods that made the N64 display a really clean looking 240p-ish picture.
Haven't seen this in action but from the looks of it most of the typical blur was gone.
Found one: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/compa02.jpg/

[Lord of Pirates]

The problem is that the jump to 3d required a lot more computational power and while Playstation and Saturn weren't amazing at 3d either, the N64 was the worst at it.

I don't think that's true at all, in fact on paper at least the N64 was the most advanced of all that generations consoles. Easily better than the Saturn at 3D (compare Quake on the N64 vs the Saturn for instance). I don't know of any 3D games as technically advanced as Perfect Dark on the PS1 either.

I think the PS1 had more texture memory (and storage space for textures thanks to the CD format), but the reason for the N64 looking so bad on modern TV's is a combination of low quality video output and the hardware anti-aliasing that Nintendo designed for the low-resolution CRT's that were around at the time.

The wiki article on the N64 has a small section about the texture limitations. Lower space on the carts cuts down on the number of textures and textures are limited 4kb, pile in trilinear filtering and crappy AA and it's a recipe for disaster. Unless you absolutely will not use emulators (or can stomach the graphics on the system), the N64 is best emulated.

[EmperorZelos]

and it's a recipe for disaster. Unless you absolutely will not use emulators (or can stomach the graphics on the system), the N64 is best emulated.

I'd say that statement is universely false

[kamiboy]

I have a feeling that the people who insist on emulating lowres 3D games so they can "enhance" their designed for lowres visuals with jarringly sharp 1080p polygons are the same who think the flash game like aesthetics of certain filters for emulated 8/16bit games make them look neato.

These people and I will never see eye to eye.

[BuckoA51]

Na I don't think so, when you emulate a system like the N64,PS1 etc I think what you're actually getting is your own homebrew HD remaster of the game. There's nothing at all wrong with that of course, its pretty hard to argue that the sharper, better definition graphics 'spoil' a game or the gameplay experience the original design team was trying to deliver, it's just not always the experience we might be looking for.

Applying filters to 2D games is another matter entirely, I suppose you could argue it is similar, but you're not so much making the game look better as just different.

[kamiboy]

I am a connoisseur of pixel art so I consider any form of their manipulation as being sacrilege and as for 3D game HD remakes, I always find them to be uglier and less consistent than their SD originals, but each to their own.

As I said, I can appreciate the aesthetics of each hardware generation on its own merits, thus I don't need to try and modernize them in order to be able to enjoy or appreciate them. I also always generally hate it when games are tampered with in any way, I want to enjoy them in their intended original form.

About the only level of tampering I tolerate is fan translations of text heavy Japanese exclusives.

[BuckoA51]

On the first point I can completely understand where you are coming from, but I doubt most people would agree on the second. When you first see what an emulator can do to a title like Final Fantasy 12, for instance, it's hard not to be in awe of just how big a visual improvement it is with the original game assets.

There are other issues with emulating too of course, such as gameplay elements that might not work the way they did on the real hardware or bugs and unintended side effects. Playing Final Fantasy 9 on an emulator once I got to the end of disc one and the ending movie for that disc would always glitch out. Now I'd invested significant time in a title that would now not play properly. I suppose I could just go on Youtube to watch the video but still, not exactly an optimal experience. That put me off emulating games for a while I have to say.

[EmperorZelos]

On the first point I can completely understand where you are coming from, but I doubt most people would agree on the second. When you first see what an emulator can do to a title like Final Fantasy 12, for instance, it's hard not to be in awe of just how big a visual improvement it is with the original game assets.

There are other issues with emulating too of course, such as gameplay elements that might not work the way they did on the real hardware or bugs and unintended side effects. Playing Final Fantasy 9 on an emulator once I got to the end of disc one and the ending movie for that disc would always glitch out. Now I'd invested significant time in a title that would now not play properly. I suppose I could just go on Youtube to watch the video but still, not exactly an optimal experience. That put me off emulating games for a while I have to say.

that is why emulation is always inferior

[BuckoA51]

that is why emulation is always inferior

but that kind of thing doesn't always happen. A more recent example, the gf and I played through "Adventures of Cookie and Cream" on the PS2 emulator (actually we started the game on the PS2 then moved to the emulator) and despite occasional slight graphical glitches that didn't affect gameplay we had a great time. Thanks to the emulators save-state function one stupidly tricky jump that would probably have seen us throw the pad down in frustration on the real hardware only held us up a few moments on the emulator.

Plus it looked much nicer than the PS2 version which is limited to 480i output (even if you don't consider GSM mode selector to be cheating, this game just doesn't work with it).

Horses for courses.

Back on topic now then?

[Lord of Pirates]

and it's a recipe for disaster. Unless you absolutely will not use emulators (or can stomach the graphics on the system), the N64 is best emulated.

I'd say that statement is universely false

I'm referring to the visuals of the 3D games on the system and emulation is the only way to really improve them, nothing false about it. I actually prefer playing games on original hardware.

Sorry for driving this thread off on a tangent.

[Bog]

At 720p, I get these annoying static lines popping in and out all over the picture. Is there a setting to fix that? Looks fine at 1080.

[Konsolkongen]

At 720p, I get these annoying static lines popping in and out all over the picture. Is there a setting to fix that? Looks fine at 1080.

Not sure. A friend of mine had this too. Might be a problem with your TV :/

[rivals]

Just got one of these and I'm having some issues.

The main one is related to my TV. SNES games look fine, but PS2 games get this weird horizontal line issue that I can't really describe. All of the lines of text in a game come out weird around the edges with horizontal lines going through it. When I switch image modes (on the framemeister) the output looks perfect for a split second then goes into this which is why I think my TV is the culprit (also the output looks fine through my capture card). The TV is a Samsung UN46C6300.

This happens on 720p and 1080p output from the framemeister, and here's an attempt at taking a picture to show what I'm seeing: http://i.imgur.com/vtPOwYXl.jpg. For reference, that's part of the Okami start screen.

My other issue has to do with my capture card. I have the infamously picky Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (thunderbolt). Works fine with PS2 source into the framemeister but I get nothing from SNES source. All outputs, settings, etc the same, both over RGB.

Any help with either of these issues is greatly appreciated. Let me know if there's any other information I can provide. Also my framemeister is on FW v 1.08.

[eightbitminiboss]

Just got one of these and I'm having some issues.

The main one is related to my TV. SNES games look fine, but PS2 games get this weird horizontal line issue that I can't really describe. All of the lines of text in a game come out weird around the edges with horizontal lines going through it. When I switch image modes (on the framemeister) the output looks perfect for a split second then goes into this which is why I think my TV is the culprit (also the output looks fine through my capture card). The TV is a Samsung UN46C6300.

This happens on 720p and 1080p output from the framemeister, and here's an attempt at taking a picture to show what I'm seeing: http://i.imgur.com/vtPOwYXl.jpg. For reference, that's part of the Okami start screen.

My other issue has to do with my capture card. I have the infamously picky Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle (thunderbolt). Works fine with PS2 source into the framemeister but I get nothing from SNES source. All outputs, settings, etc the same, both over RGB.

Any help with either of these issues is greatly appreciated. Let me know if there's any other information I can provide. Also my framemeister is on FW v 1.08.

For that PS2 horizontal line thing, you need to change the auto scaler to Video (Menu > Visual Set > Auto Scaler), it will get rid of that stepping on the image. The Game option for the auto scaler was made for 240p stuff.

[rivals]

For that PS2 horizontal line thing, you need to change the auto scaler to Video (Menu > Visual Set > Auto Scaler), it will get rid of that stepping on the image. The Game option for the auto scaler was made for 240p stuff.

That did it! Thank you! Looks really great now. I have a feeling the streaming issue is due to my capture card being super picky. I'm having a friend bring over a different card (that works with the framemeister for all sources he's tested), so I'll get a better idea then.

[Fudoh]

SNES is too far from the standard NTSC timings to work with locked v-sync on the Blackmagic. Did you try it with with DISABLED v-sync lock on the Mini ??

[IrishNinja]

finally updated to 1.10 FW! which is great, but it reset my settings, which im pulling randomly off of the XRGB wiki, few quick questions:

1) why are my hue and saturation variables locked? what do i gotta disable to change them?

2) likewise with Scan B, Even & Odd, they're locked at the moment

3) speaking of...i can't seem to get a good pic that replicates the problem i'm running into with scanlines.

with certain white backgrounds in games like Hissatusu (or, I wanna say, Clockwork Knight), when the character looks up or down or otherwise changes the screen a bit, parts of the scanlines over said white backgrounds seem to dance & stand out for the moment, usually ceasing when that adjustment ends (i.e., you see it when looking up, then when the cam pans back down, but when just moving left to right not so much). any idea what this is or how to be rid of it? i'm using good cables from retro_console_accessories, and the only variable i've noticed is that raising the Scan A (& thereby diminishing the lines) also makes this effect less pronounced.

[kerframil]

finally updated to 1.10 FW! which is great, but it reset my settings, which im pulling randomly off of the XRGB wiki, few quick questions:

1) why are my hue and saturation variables locked? what do i gotta disable to change them?

2) likewise with Scan B, Even & Odd, they're locked at the moment

3) speaking of...i can't seem to get a good pic that replicates the problem i'm running into with scanlines.

with certain white backgrounds in games like Hissatusu (or, I wanna say, Clockwork Knight), when the character looks up or down or otherwise changes the screen a bit, parts of the scanlines over said white backgrounds seem to dance & stand out for the moment, usually ceasing when that adjustment ends (i.e., you see it when looking up, then when the cam pans back down, but when just moving left to right not so much). any idea what this is or how to be rid of it? i'm using good cables from retro_console_accessories, and the only variable i've noticed is that raising the Scan A (& thereby diminishing the lines) also makes this effect less pronounced.

1) They cannot be changed while using the RGB input port.

2) Scan B only seems to be used for ~30kHz signals. With a true 240p input, the Mini figures out whether to darken odd or even lines automatically. Hence, only the setting to control the intensity needs to be exposed.

Regarding the scanline problem, I'm going to assume you're using 720p as the output mode because the Mini outputs scanlines incorrectly at 1080p. In that case, the problem could be that you are using a 1080p TV that upscales from 720p badly. Another problem could be that your TV is applying overscan, leading to uneven scaling (this would very likely lead to shimmering during vertical scrolling). Finally, make sure that any post-processing effects and 'enhancements' are disabled for the TV input e.g. Reality Creation on Sony TVs, edge enhancement, automatic contrast enhancements and so forth.

[Konsolkongen]

with certain white backgrounds in games like Hissatusu (or, I wanna say, Clockwork Knight), when the character looks up or down or otherwise changes the screen a bit, parts of the scanlines over said white backgrounds seem to dance & stand out for the moment, usually ceasing when that adjustment ends (i.e., you see it when looking up, then when the cam pans back down, but when just moving left to right not so much). any idea what this is or how to be rid of it? i'm using good cables from retro_console_accessories, and the only variable i've noticed is that raising the Scan A (& thereby diminishing the lines) also makes this effect less pronounced.

Never seen this before. Sounds to me like you have some kind of nasty picture "enhancement" setting enabled on your TV. If the TV has a game mode, choose that one instead.

[IrishNinja]

Regarding the scanline problem, I'm going to assume you're using 720p as the output mode because the Mini outputs scanlines incorrectly at 1080p. In that case, the problem could be that you are using a 1080p TV that upscales from 720p badly. Another problem could be that your TV is applying overscan, leading to uneven scaling (this would very likely lead to shimmering during vertical scrolling). Finally, make sure that any post-processing effects and 'enhancements' are disabled for the TV input e.g. Reality Creation on Sony TVs, edge enhancement, automatic contrast enhancements and so forth.

Never seen this before. Sounds to me like you have some kind of nasty picture "enhancement" setting enabled on your TV. If the TV has a game mode, choose that one instead.

i see - thank you both (especially Kerfamil); i picked up this panasonic plasma last year and it's a good set but sadly has more input lag than my prior model. I do have it in game mode & since it's a 3D TV i try going through the settings to disable all the nonsense but i'll look into it & see if there's more of them going (i believe it's an ST60 model). and yes, I am using 720p as the output mode for that very reason (the mini not doing lines in 1080p proper). if anyone knows about this set in particular, feel free to advise; i'm going to look about in AVS forums & such. thanks again.

[kerframil]

Regarding the scanline problem, I'm going to assume you're using 720p as the output mode because the Mini outputs scanlines incorrectly at 1080p. In that case, the problem could be that you are using a 1080p TV that upscales from 720p badly. Another problem could be that your TV is applying overscan, leading to uneven scaling (this would very likely lead to shimmering during vertical scrolling). Finally, make sure that any post-processing effects and 'enhancements' are disabled for the TV input e.g. Reality Creation on Sony TVs, edge enhancement, automatic contrast enhancements and so forth.

Never seen this before. Sounds to me like you have some kind of nasty picture "enhancement" setting enabled on your TV. If the TV has a game mode, choose that one instead.

i see - thank you both (especially Kerfamil); i picked up this panasonic plasma last year and it's a good set but sadly has more input lag than my prior model. I do have it in game mode & since it's a 3D TV i try going through the settings to disable all the nonsense but i'll look into it & see if there's more of them going (i believe it's an ST60 model). and yes, I am using 720p as the output mode for that very reason (the mini not doing lines in 1080p proper). if anyone knows about this set in particular, feel free to advise; i'm going to look about in AVS forums & such. thanks again.

A quick search concerning the ST60 returned the following tidbit:

In order to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping you need to select the aspect ratio called “16:9" in the TV settings and deactivate 16:9 Overscan in the screen settings menu.

Having a device that can output a test pattern at 720p would be useful.

[IrishNinja]

hmm...Oversan is definitely off in the screen settings, but i'm not seeing aspect ratio or even a general TV settings menu; in the same screen settings there's mode and i've got "full", can't find anywhere that gives a 16:9 option. curious.

[kerframil]

hmm...Oversan is definitely off in the screen settings, but i'm not seeing aspect ratio or even a general TV settings menu; in the same screen settings there's mode and i've got "full", can't find anywhere that gives a 16:9 option. curious.

It's entirely possible that you already have it covered. Unless you use a test pattern, it's difficult to be certain. The only other thing I can suggest is to try running 480p out of the Mini. This tends to result in a rather soft image but, if you're lucky, your TV will have an option to scale it up to exactly 960 lines instead of 1080. Maybe it will work better for you.

[jujukun]

Hi everyone,

I own a XRGB-Mini since July 2013 and it works perfectly! However, I also want to connect my Super Famicom through the XRGB-Mini and I have an issue with this. I bought an official GameCube PAL RGB Cable, but I have no image, just the sound. I also tried this cable on my RGB modded N64, it's the same: no image, just the sound.

I'm using this adapter, which works perfectly with my Saturn (HK model with the RGB cable "embedded" in the console):
http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/euro ... -sale.html

Anyone can help me to understand why it doesn't work?

Thanks!