I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by chum »

drauch wrote:since you're obviously a freak, feel free to pilfer through all 3000+ of my posts
This forum.
drauch wrote: I'm not denying Touhou has brought in plenty of players that dig Psikyo games, because I'm sure they have--same with Ikaruga. Do most of those players continue playing shmups? I doubt it. But please, don't take offense!
Your delusions aren't my problem. You're clearly held back by a distaste towards something that exists mostly in your head. It's pretty clear that my attitude has offended you. I'm not offended. The fact that you're both (seemingly) incompetent and an elitist just makes you an easy target.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Squire Grooktook »

I think you guys have maybe (?) misunderstood eachother.

I don't think Drauch was saying everyone introduced to shmups by Touhou is a weeaboo who doesn't play. Just that not everyone who was introduced by Touhou plays Touhou seriously or plays other shmups. That's not to say it wasn't ultimately good for the genre and didn't bring in some good players.

Same with Ikaruga really. From what I"ve heard here, it seems like a lot of players definitely got introduced to the genre through Ika. Not all of them stayed obviously, but enough did to be noteworthy it seems.

Like I said, I think that ultimately getting people to stay with any hardcore/niche genre is ultimately up to the person and not the game. You don't really get into shmups or fighting games or whatever until you really see the appeal and "get it" and want to play more. The best these games can do is reach out a hand to players who might not have been aware of their existence (in case they are ready) and elegantly introduce them to the fundamentals of the genre.

At least that's what I think.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Erppo »

I believe the point was simply that this quote:
drauch wrote:Yeah, Touhou is very well known, but is it actually bringing in shmup players for other games? I'm not seeing it
is just plain wrong, and that that should be pretty obvious for everyone who follows the scoreboards here.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by replayme »

Pretas wrote:I disagree. The effects of the fawning of Western players over RSG and Ikaruga were limited to Treasure's own reputation, and never sparked a significant surge of interest and acclaim for the genre at large. It didn't even have much to do with the games themselves, being mostly limited to their artistic qualities. Few people have the patience or inclination to practice the unforgiving chaining mechanics, especially in RSG, where not chaining at all will eventually make it impossible to kill bosses in time.
I disagree. I find the majority of Treasure games outside the shmup/Iuchi range to be bland, over-rated affairs. Sin and Punishment was good, but no match for Iuchi's finest.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Blinge »

I knew about and understood Ikaruga's mechanics a few years before I played it, or any other shmup. I thought it was one of the coolest damn things I'd ever seen, and was overjoyed to see it on my mates shelf the following year.
It became the second game i'd ever 1cc and really learn most of it off by heart, and it's bascially the reason i'm into shmups now. So I agree with OP, and also yeah, I'd never heard of touhou before visiting this forum, never stumbled across it, nothing. None of my PC or console gamer friends know what touhou is either.
I wasn't gonna contribute to the vs touhou argument but god damn, the fans insert themselves into most threads and videos about other STGs, it's hard to ignore.
still it's about time I at least tried one of them..
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Zerst »

Ikaruga is a popular game because it has washed out brown colors. And games with washed out brown colors are the only socially acceptable video games.
Dimahoo is a fun game.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by royalfan84 »

I also never heard much about Touhou before reading the forums on this site; a brief mention here and there on a site or two like Racketboy. Never found it on youtube although I had watched many videos on shmups.....I think xbox live has done a lot for bringing shmups to the minds of western gamers again...I can't speak for Touhou as it doesn't appear to be my thing. I think I can love shmups without getting into Touhou.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by drauch »

chum wrote:
drauch wrote:since you're obviously a freak, feel free to pilfer through all 3000+ of my posts
This forum.
drauch wrote: I'm not denying Touhou has brought in plenty of players that dig Psikyo games, because I'm sure they have--same with Ikaruga. Do most of those players continue playing shmups? I doubt it. But please, don't take offense!
Your delusions aren't my problem. You're clearly held back by a distaste towards something that exists mostly in your head. It's pretty clear that my attitude has offended you. I'm not offended. The fact that you're both (seemingly) incompetent and an elitist just makes you an easy target.
Oh, my... not sure what to make of this.

There you go again, ever ready to lump yourself into some rash generalization I made in regards to a select few members that come and go on the forum. I can't tell if you're such a masochist for wanting to be targeted or just so zealous in regards to your infatuation to all things Touhou. You're obviously not the intended, since you've obviously been here a few years. Take a look back at the thread in Off Topic where this all started, when I called folly to a new member for posting trash. Alert the hive mind, someone is talking negatively about Touhou! Like a pack of wild dogs, new posters and Touhou cultists crawled out of the woodwork to defend their brother in Touhou.

Again, I've got no problem with the Touhou games. I think they're fine games, really, and I've never talked ill about them even once, which I'm sure you noticed when you went through my posts to report back to home base. You see, I have a problem with bad first impressions, and when someone instantly starts spouting garbage, posting silly pictures, meme jargon, and general tomfoolery I usually don't take kindly to it. Touhou is widely known throughout the silly 4chan/meme internet world, and while I'm obviously stereotyping, that doesn't mean I instantly resent someone for enjoying Touhou. And hey! You don't seem to fall under any of those categories, but you're obviously so passionate that you let it bother you and resort to insulting my supposed (lack of) skill.

I'm certainly an elitist, no doubt about it, but not in this situation. Highly opinionated, and a bit too quick to jest, maybe. Such silly speculation in the first place. I'm not too interested in what game has done more for the genre, but if they are possibly responsible for a regenerated interested in the genre, then great; that's awesome. Too bad I (obviously) don't play shmups and suck at them :(.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by chum »

Blatant backtracking. You weren't just talking about a select few members of the forum. You said the series doesn't bring in any players for other games in the genre. Why wouldn't that include me? Of course, I can't take offense because It's obviously not true, but I'm still one of the targets.

Perhaps you should go back and reread the post I was initially correcting. Maybe you hadn't noticed us in the scoreboards since you don't post there, I gave some examples. I don't care about any of your opinions on anything besides that for now. For example, I couldn't care less what your feelings on that "other situation" is, nor do I feel any need to defend my own reaction or anyone else's, at least not here. Certain people will know what my feelings were. I guess I can share that I was supportive of, or rather understanding of the ban as it occurred.

I also didn't intend to take potshots. The irony of your complaints, and your misplaced elitism, was amusing. Skill isn't a trait that should affect personal relationships at all, but I think a bit of expertise should be expected from elitists.

Elitism in itself is not necessarily bad, but yours doesn't hold water. I know for a fact that me and several other Touhou players are very passionate about the genre as a whole. One person making a joke account shouldn't really matter in the long run, and after all, It certainly can't just be Touhou players that make accounts here but don't stick around.

Now, if it so happens that I'm actually misunderstanding your posts (which I am taking literally) then please do clarify.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by MathU »

chum wrote:I searched for your posts in the high score section: zero results. Too good, you complain about us and you don't even appear to play the genre yourself.
I'm really getting tired of this obnoxiously elitist fallacy going around here lately that if you don't join in the competition your opinion on things is instantly worthless. You can be an expert on a game without ever setting foot in the high score forum; not everyone plays these games to compete specifically with others or to be a part of this place's community (of questionable quality).
Of course, that's just an opinion.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by chum »

I'm not the troublemaker though, I was just playing by his rules.

If we have to make it known that we care about shmups, then why shouldn't he?
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by MrOldSchoolCool »

I'd like to point out that Ikaruga's polarity system came from an earlier Treasure game, Silhouette Mirage, which predates Dimahoo.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

I don't believe any "mainstream" gamers exist; that is, I don't believe in any lowest common denominator - games that everybody's played. Some play games to fulfill their need for identification, but I doubt anybody knows for sure whether they are a smaller or bigger crowd than those who couldn't care less about cool points. One of the best selling franchises around is The Sims for heaven's sake and - again - I doubt anybody knows which is most pirated, never mind most played by pirates.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Some-Mist »

replayme wrote:
Pretas wrote:I disagree. The effects of the fawning of Western players over RSG and Ikaruga were limited to Treasure's own reputation, and never sparked a significant surge of interest and acclaim for the genre at large. It didn't even have much to do with the games themselves, being mostly limited to their artistic qualities. Few people have the patience or inclination to practice the unforgiving chaining mechanics, especially in RSG, where not chaining at all will eventually make it impossible to kill bosses in time.
I disagree. I find the majority of Treasure games outside the shmup/Iuchi range to be bland, over-rated affairs. Sin and Punishment was good, but no match for Iuchi's finest.
but Guardian Heroes is awesome....
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Honestly, the only Treasure game I don't like is Gunstar Heroes. Even as a kid, I never understood what all the fuss was about.

Otherwise, I don't understand all the claims about being "bland". Sure the move speed is slow, but RSG really impressed me with its bosses and environmental hazards, now if only it had a better scoring system...
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Obiwanshinobi »

I didn't play Gunstar Heroes when it was new, but I think the kill count, the explosions and the fact the game was completable in the first sitting, giving one a nice sense of accomplishment before its tricks get old, coupled with supposedly enjoyable co-op, worked for many a kid. If you wanted to kill and destroy on Genesis, I guess it was pretty serviceable.
Perhaps GTA works like that for ten year olds of today.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by drauch »

chum wrote:Blatant backtracking. You weren't just talking about a select few members of the forum. You said the series doesn't bring in any players for other games in the genre. Why wouldn't that include me? Of course, I can't take offense because It's obviously not true, but I'm still one of the targets.

Perhaps you should go back and reread the post I was initially correcting. Maybe you hadn't noticed us in the scoreboards since you don't post there, I gave some examples. I don't care about any of your opinions on anything besides that for now. For example, I couldn't care less what your feelings on that "other situation" is, nor do I feel any need to defend my own reaction or anyone else's, at least not here. Certain people will know what my feelings were. I guess I can share that I was supportive of, or rather understanding of the ban as it occurred.

I also didn't intend to take potshots. The irony of your complaints, and your misplaced elitism, was amusing. Skill isn't a trait that should affect personal relationships at all, but I think a bit of expertise should be expected from elitists.

Elitism in itself is not necessarily bad, but yours doesn't hold water. I know for a fact that me and several other Touhou players are very passionate about the genre as a whole. One person making a joke account shouldn't really matter in the long run, and after all, It certainly can't just be Touhou players that make accounts here but don't stick around.

Now, if it so happens that I'm actually misunderstanding your posts (which I am taking literally) then please do clarify.
Dude...

The irony of what? Where are all these accusations of elitism coming from? I'm no stranger to self-deprecation, and I'm quite vocal of my lack of effort all over this forum. Dunno why you assume elitism through my annoyance.

I don't really understand what you're not understanding at this point. I've admitted multiple things at this point that should be clear:
A.) I don't hate Touhou
B.) I've admitted to "rash generalization" and "stereotyping," yet you're still so set on "drauch hates ANYONE who plays Touhou! Not one person that plays Touhou has ever done anything positive for shmups!"

Notice us in the high scores forum?! Haha... what? Again, you're quite set on Touhou fans being some sort of unique race of humans, yet you're arguing about me stereotyping them. Believe it or not, but I don't just skim every other user to find out if they are a Touhou fan, then lump them in a category for future belittling. Because I don't care. But I obviously hate them all.

This talk of expertise and skill, high scores, "contributing" to shmups, and general talk of we, like the Touhou fanbase is something of a minority group is quite perplexing and a tad silly. If you measure worth by skill and contribution by inputs in a high score section of a forum you may want to take a step back and evaluate your own obvious elitist attitude.
Last edited by drauch on Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by KAI »

chum wrote:us
That's the most elitist thing I've ever heard in this place.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by drauch »

chum wrote:If we have to make it known that we care about shmups, then why shouldn't he?
Just saw this.

DUDE. Get over it! Nobody is making you and whoever the hell else do anything. There is no proving yourself. Nobody cares! Except obviously me, or so you think. You're doing most of this to yourself... again.

What was that again about delusions?
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Can't you guys just kiss and make up?
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by drauch »

Kiss a Touhou!? Ewww, my heavens, no!
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by chum »

drauch wrote: Dude...

The irony of what? Where are all these accusations of elitism coming from? I'm no stranger to self-deprecation, and I'm quite vocal of my lack of effort all over this forum. Dunno why you assume elitism through my annoyance.

I don't really understand what you're not understanding at this point. I've admitted multiple things at this point that should be clear:
A.) I don't hate Touhou
B.) I've admitted to "rash generalization" and "stereotyping," yet you're still so set on "drauch hates ANYONE who plays Touhou! Not one person that plays Touhou has ever done anything positive for shmups!"

Notice us in the high scores forum?! Haha... what? Again, you're quite set on Touhou fans being some sort of unique race of humans, yet you're arguing about me stereotyping them. Believe it or not, but I don't just skim every other user to find out if they are a Touhou fan, then lump them in a category for future belittling. Because I don't care. But I obviously hate them all.

This talk of expertise and skill, high scores, "contributing" to shmups, and general talk of we, like the Touhou fanbase is something of a minority group is quite perplexing and a tad silly. If you measure worth by skill and contribution by inputs in a high score section of a forum you may want to take a step back and evaluate your own obvious elitist attitude.
Are you still half asleep? Your accusations make no sense because I was following along with your post. If you you really don't understand why I used the term "we" or "us" It's because you're the one who generalized in the first place. How was I otherwise supposed to talk to you on your own level? How was I supposed to defend people that aren't myself, without excluding myself since I was also targeted by your generalization, otherwise?

Since you backtracked, this bickering is completely worthless. If you're going to keep this attitude, I don't have anything more to say here except that I thought you were at least above trolling. Yes, you've admitted that you were stereotyping... so now what, now I'm the bad guy? Maybe you should quit with that useless attitude, and for crying out loud, I didn't say "us" or "we" for the reasons you're saying.

In fact, everything you're accusing me of here is what I criticized you to begin with, and I was criticizing you by taking your posts very literally. Apparently that was wrong of me? Apparently worth by contributions don't exist, so then my follow up question to you, my rash friend is what in the world is wrong with the players that come here and don't contribute? Nothing, I suppose? That's clearly the correct answer and that means that you were in the wrong to begin with.
drauch wrote:
chum wrote:If we have to make it known that we care about shmups, then why shouldn't he?
Just saw this.

DUDE. Get over it! Nobody is making you and whoever the hell else do anything. There is no proving yourself. Nobody cares! Except obviously me, or so you think. You're doing most of this to yourself... again.

What was that again about delusions?
This isn't how arguments work. You don't just make things up out of thin air and trick people into thinking that you hold a stance that you apparently don't. Actually, that's called trolling. You troll.

Yeah, Touhou is very well known, but is it actually bringing in shmup players for other games? I'm not seeing it, and when I do, it's the... er, questionable members we get on a frequent basis that post a few times, scoff at Fire Shark, then disappear back into the abyss of the internet in search for more doujin.
Again, who are these people? Where are you seeing them? This statement is one reason why I've called you delusional. You're trying to make this about me now when that is a very silly thing to do for reasons already explained.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Skykid »

Sorry to throw an oar in but:

I think chum is a respectable poster and Touhou games are rather excellent. The first I played was UFO as part of a review process and I was surprised at how enjoyable it was.

I've noted plenty of high level Touhou lunatic players etc taking names in the high score section for plenty of shmups, and much to my chagrin, knocked me off the DOJ BL score table. They're good skill-based gaming stock, for the most part. Sapz, a mod on one 2hu forum or another, demonstrated incredible Futari 1.5 ability at one of several shmupmeets we were at, and is amazing at plenty of other games too (his Crimzon Clover vids iirc, are superb).

Touhou's only problem is the fandom and its associated behaviours. chum, you should be aware that you opened a thread with good intentions, and within 48 hours it had 50% of its posts removed, another thread was deleted entirely, and one person was banned. None of that has anything to do with how good a scorer someone is, or whether or not they cross to different shmup genres.

System11's approach to this place is very hands off, but with boundaries that usually dictate not allowing the forum to devolve into anything resembling 4chan picture spamming or silly anime worship. I don't think it's unfair to not want constant loli related nonsense - some of which goes beyond mild distaste - or dedicated trap threads etc defining the forum, when there are so many other places that exist purely for it.

I think you and drauch have a misunderstanding. There really is nothing wrong with the games, or you either, in my opinion, but the excesses of Touhou fandom are irritating to a lot of people, and that's where the flack comes from every time it crops up.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by ACSeraph »

^ Well said.

Anyone want to go talk about Darius? :lol: I bet Treasure would make one pimp Darius game.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by chum »

Skykid wrote:Sorry to throw an oar in but:

I think chum is a respectable poster and Touhou games are rather excellent. The first I played was UFO as part of a review process and I was surprised at how enjoyable it was.

I've noted plenty of high level Touhou lunatic players etc taking names in the high score section for plenty of shmups, and much to my chagrin, knocked me off the DOJ BL score table. They're good skill-based gaming stock, for the most part. Sapz, a mod on one 2hu forum or another, demonstrated incredible Futari 1.5 ability at one of several shmupmeets we were at, and is amazing at plenty of other games too (his Crimzon Clover vids iirc, are superb).

Touhou's only problem is the fandom and its associated behaviours. chum, you should be aware that you opened a thread with good intentions, and within 48 hours it had 50% of its posts removed, another thread was deleted entirely, and one person was banned. None of that has anything to do with how good a scorer someone is, or whether or not they cross to different shmup genres.

System11's approach to this place is very hands off, but with boundaries that usually dictate not allowing the forum to devolve into anything resembling 4chan picture spamming or silly anime worship. I don't think it's unfair to not want constant loli related nonsense - some of which goes beyond mild distaste - or dedicated trap threads etc defining the forum, when there are so many other places that exist purely for it.

I think you and drauch have a misunderstanding. There really is nothing wrong with the games, or you either, in my opinion, but the excesses of Touhou fandom are irritating to a lot of people, and that's where the flack comes from every time it crops up.
I don't think It's really about that. The intention behind my first mention of the high score section was to show examples of Touhou players that do play other shmups, basically, that was the first thing I had to do to refute the generalization. The next thing is to ask who these other people are, because I've only witnessed one joke account, and one ban. Sure, I did make a jab at him as well, but make no mistake, I wouldn't do that to anyone just because they don't post in the high score section. If I am an elitist, it is very situational. I try to avoid to generalize, at least, if I'm caught doing it I'll gladly admit I was in the wrong.

edit: I'll be happy to sort this out in PM with you, drauch, since it just occurred to me that this is off-topic
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Skykid »

chum wrote: I don't think It's really about that. The intention behind my first mention of the high score section was to show examples of Touhou players that do play other shmups, basically, that was the first thing I had to do to refute the generalization. The next thing is to ask who these other people are, because I've only witnessed one joke account, and one ban. Sure, I did make a jab at him as well, but make no mistake, I wouldn't do that to anyone just because they don't post in the high score section. If I am an elitist, it is very situational. I try to avoid to generalize, at least, if I'm caught doing it I'll gladly admit I was in the wrong.
Well from experience and HS thread observation, I disagree with drauch that Touhou players don't play other shmups, and I agree with your position.

But I know drauch's original gripe (as in the content of the dedicated Touhou thread you opened) was less about who plays what and how well, and more about the who wants to sleep with which little girl waifu nonsense. Like quite a few people, he's just still in that 'mode', and I don't think it's entirely his fault.

Any adept person can see that Zun's characters, sub-par soap opera story plotting, and in my opinion incredibly overrated music, are secondary to the games themselves - yet those other elements unduly get the most airtime: and it sounds like white noise.

I can see your issue with being pigeonholed and generalised because you're (also) into Touhou. I don't think you've ever said or done anything specifically that put you in the pot with fanatics: those guys will always be generalised, marginalised whatever, because they're just plain silly. Your irritation at being lumped in with them is fair, and you have a right to defend the games on their merits. Perhaps it's simply a case that those aforementioned fanatics are bringing you down with them, because people have stopped bothering to sort the Touhou crazies from other more balanced fans of the genre.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it and just carry on. I'm happy to read about Touhou stuff as long as it stays about the games.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Koa Zo »

ACSeraph wrote: I bet Treasure would make one pimp Darius game.
Damn, now there's a thought.
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by KAI »

Koa Zo wrote:
ACSeraph wrote: I bet Treasure would make one pimp Darius game.
Damn, now there's a thought.
A Darius puzzle game?
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Re: I think Ikaruga and Radiant Silvergun have done a lot...

Post by Squire Grooktook »

KAI wrote:
Koa Zo wrote:
ACSeraph wrote: I bet Treasure would make one pimp Darius game.
Damn, now there's a thought.
A Darius puzzle game?
Gradius V wasn't a puzzle game.

Honestly, G5 is like everything good about RSG, minus everything wrong with it (EXCEPT the length, which is subjective for some folks).
RegalSin wrote:Japan an almost perfect society always threatened by outsiders....................

Instead I am stuck in the America's where women rule with an iron crotch, and a man could get arrested for sitting behind a computer too long.
Aeon Zenith - My STG.
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