XRGB-mini Framemeister

[BuckoA51]

It's not my Wiki , I just like to document stuff

[EmperorZelos]

bad cable. The higher the bandwith (1080p > 720p and 12-bit > 8-bit), the easier it is to cause problems due to bad or mediocre cables.

HUH!? bad cable would be the cause!?

[AkibaDecker]

For the Dreamcast, would buying a Hanzo VGA Box (then doing VGA to HDMI IN of the XRGB mini, via adapters) be the easiest way for the best looking signal (meaning, not composite).

No, this gets asked every other week, go read the wiki here:- http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php/Dreamcast

So I read this information:

The Mini's RGB in socket will accept a 31khz signal, but it must be a RGBC signal and not the more common RGBHV that VGA usually uses. It is possible to connect the Dreamcast's VGA output to the XRGB Mini via a sync combiner. If you have the universal VGA box modification too, that means you can play both 15khz and 31khz RGB games, just as with the XRGB3. You could use the ArcadeForge UMSA for instance, or modify a VGA box of your own with a sync combiner.

Bucko, I just wanted to confirm, this means that there is modification or building of components involved no matter what, correct? I apologize, as I'm no engineer of any sort - I was just trying to read between the lines as well regarding "sync combiner". Thank you.

[Fudoh]

A passive sync combiner involves building a cable with a few electronic parts in it (nothing expensive).

[AkibaDecker]

A passive sync combiner involves building a cable with a few electronic parts in it (nothing expensive).

Thank you, Fudoh. Are you or anyone else aware of any people or outfits that build the cable (and or VGA box) for a price? Again, thanks all for your patience.

[BuckoA51]

Bucko, I just wanted to confirm, this means that there is modification or building of components involved no matter what, correct?

Like the text says, you either do it yourself or buy the UMSA adapter from ArcadeForge. Buying the UMSA is a little overkill but if you hate soldering it's a good solution. If you buy the Hanzo VGA box too you also get 15khz compatibility.

[AkibaDecker]

Bucko, I just wanted to confirm, this means that there is modification or building of components involved no matter what, correct?

Like the text says, you either do it yourself or buy the UMSA adapter from ArcadeForge. Buying the UMSA is a little overkill but if you hate soldering it's a good solution. If you buy the Hanzo VGA box too you also get 15khz compatibility.

Thanks, Bucko. I've soldered maybe once, at least a decade ago So I'd rather spend a little money to get something that'll work without any major tampering or building on my part. The Hanzo box looks really good based on what I've read here and through searches.

So, just so that I'm clear (for both 31khz/15khz compabitility):
XRGB Mini <-- ArcadeForge UMSA <-- Hanzo VGA Box <-- Dreamcast (U.S.)

No "sync combiner" is needed then, right? And the ArcadeForge UMSA will interface with the XRGBs cable?
EDIT: I found these for SCART.
1. http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/mico ... ipper.html
2. http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/euro ... -sale.html
3. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micomsoft-XRGB- ... 2ecb4cdbcd

I was probably just a little confused by the wording on the Wiki page (reading too much into the sentences perhaps), so I wanted to make sure I got this right (don't want to buy the wrong parts, or an excess of components).

[EmperorZelos]

Bucko, I just wanted to confirm, this means that there is modification or building of components involved no matter what, correct?

Like the text says, you either do it yourself or buy the UMSA adapter from ArcadeForge. Buying the UMSA is a little overkill but if you hate soldering it's a good solution. If you buy the Hanzo VGA box too you also get 15khz compatibility.

Thanks, Bucko. I've soldered maybe once, at least a decade ago So I'd rather spend a little money to get something that'll work without any major tampering or building on my part. The Hanzo box looks really good based on what I've read here and through searches.

So, just so that I'm clear (for both 31khz/15khz compabitility):
XRGB Mini <-- ArcadeForge UMSA <-- Hanzo VGA Box <-- Dreamcast (U.S.)

No "sync combiner" is needed then, right? And the ArcadeForge UMSA will interface with the XRGBs cable?
EDIT: I found these for SCART.
1. http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/mico ... ipper.html
2. http://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/euro ... -sale.html
3. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micomsoft-XRGB- ... 2ecb4cdbcd

I was probably just a little confused by the wording on the Wiki page (reading too much into the sentences perhaps), so I wanted to make sure I got this right (don't want to buy the wrong parts, or an excess of components).

I knew the sync was the bastard cause!

[darcagn]

Just wait and get the Shinken when it comes out. It's a separate model of the Hanzo that will support 31KHz RGB out for the XRGB-mini.

[beharius]

We changed the Shynken name because it sounds like "ham" in German... We call it Kenzei now, probably released very soon... It's a sync combiner device for Hanzo and other devices with VGA output, can be used with Framemeister...

[AkibaDecker]

We changed the Shynken name because it sounds like "ham" in German... We call it Kenzei now, probably released very soon... It's a sync combiner device for Hanzo and other devices with VGA output, can be used with Framemeister...

Thank you for the tip darcagn. As I mentioned, just catching up to all this information. I saw your thread over in Assembler, beharius. I definitely want to pre order Kenzei + get a Hanzo from you, too.

[beharius]

I will start to take preorders by the end of this month probably.

BTW, Hanzo is always available.

[BuckoA51]

Excellent news! I will update the Wiki shortly ^^

[Shining]

Is there a way to force RGB full range with the Mini? My TV reports the signal as RGB limited. The Mini is set to RGB and Deep Color. I have the option to select full/limited range on my TV but i feel the colors are a bit off.

I don't know about the new FW, but with 1.07 most 60Hz RGB inputs are outputted as full-range by Mini, while 50Hz material usually remains limited-range (or with similar brightness offset). Deep color isn't related to this, it just sets the output to 30/36bit if your TV supports it.

Is there a way to force RGB full range with the Mini? My TV reports the signal as RGB limited. The Mini is set to RGB and Deep Color. I have the option to select full/limited range on my TV but i feel the colors are a bit off.

With my tv (and with 1.07), I have to turn it on before the framemeister, otherwise I get limited range and bad colours.

I've tried both 1.07 and 1.10 with the same results. However, If i switch to DVI mode (1280x1024) i get full RGB. For now, i set the Mini to output color Auto(YUV) and it looks much better than RGB limited. Am i missing out when using YUV instead of RGB?

I will try and seclect full RGB on my TV before starting the Mini when i get home tonight.

Quoting myself here, heh, and i have now tried everything and i just can't get full RGB to be enabled over HDMI mode. This is only a problem with the Mini, when using PS3 and PC i get full RGB.

[kerframil]

Quoting myself here, heh, and i have now tried everything and i just can't get full RGB to be enabled over HDMI mode. This is only a problem with the Mini, when using PS3 and PC i get full RGB.

Are you sure about that? Just because the quantization range flags are set to indicate limited, it doesn't mean that the Mini is playing by its rules. I had a problem with my current TV where the input was set to "Auto" on the applicable HDMI input and I experienced black crush. It wasn't until I forced the TV to treat the input as utilizing the "Full" range that things looked right. I describe this in detail in the last post of this thread:

Picture too dark after Super Famicom Jr RGB mod

My hypothesis is that the Mini determines that the quantization range is selectable (presumably from the EDID data provided by the display) then lies to the display, purporting to output using limited range when, in fact, it is utilizing the full range. I used a public domain ROM containing a color palette test to confirm the efficacy of the solution.

The Xbox 360 has a similar bug: it lies about the quantization range to the display even when it is truly using the full range (but at least it allows the user to choose):

[BUG] HDMI output quantization range flags indicate limited range regardless of reference levels

Now, I don't remember having this problem on my previous TV, which does not support full range input at all. Perhaps the Mini correctly employs a limited range when attached to such a display. I still have that TV so I'll hook it up when I get some time and look at the color palette test that I used.

[marqs]

I'm fairly sure neither X360, PS3 or Mini sets explicitly the quantization range field in HDMI AVI infoframe. The default value (Q1=0, Q0=0) should be interpreted as limited range with HD content accoring to HDMI/CEA specs. Too bad these devices do not use this field even though the range is selectable (PS3, X360) or content-dependant (XRGB Mini). This is somewhat understandable, since almost all TVs ignore the field. But if you have a Panasonic as I do, you're in trouble since it calibrates the output according to this field, and there is no way to override it.

[kerframil]

I'm fairly sure neither X360, PS3 or Mini sets explicitly the quantization range field in HDMI AVI infoframe. The default value (Q1=0, Q0=0) should be interpreted as limited range with HD content accoring to HDMI/CEA specs. Too bad these devices do not use this field even though the range is selectable (PS3, X360) or content-dependant (XRGB Mini). This is somewhat understandable, since almost all TVs ignore the field. But if you have a Panasonic as I do, you're in trouble since it calibrates the output according to this field, and there is no way to override it.

This is very interesting. In that case, it's all the more unfortunate that the Mini doesn't allow for the output range to be chosen. Being content-dependent must be a problem for displays that don't allow the assumed range for the input to be overridden. I have two questions. Firstly, do you know the exact circumstances that determine which the Mini chooses? All I know is that I'm getting full range output on mine while using the RGB input port. Secondly, what equipment could I use to examine the properties of the HDMI signal (ideally without spending too much money)? It would be nice to take the guesswork out of this.

[Smashbro29]

My remote has been acting up lately, tried new batteries and the only ghetto fix I found mild success with was kinda squeezing it and then I can get one maybe two inputs before it stops again. Help?

Update seems great, is there a good English change list out?

[Shining]

Quoting myself here, heh, and i have now tried everything and i just can't get full RGB to be enabled over HDMI mode. This is only a problem with the Mini, when using PS3 and PC i get full RGB.

Are you sure about that? Just because the quantization range flags are set to indicate limited, it doesn't mean that the Mini is playing by its rules. I had a problem with my current TV where the input was set to "Auto" on the applicable HDMI input and I experienced black crush. It wasn't until I forced the TV to treat the input as utilizing the "Full" range that things looked right. I describe this in detail in the last post of this thread:

Picture too dark after Super Famicom Jr RGB mod

My hypothesis is that the Mini determines that the quantization range is selectable (presumably from the EDID data provided by the display) then lies to the display, purporting to output using limited range when, in fact, it is utilizing the full range. I used a public domain ROM containing a color palette test to confirm the efficacy of the solution.

The Xbox 360 has a similar bug: it lies about the quantization range to the display even when it is truly using the full range (but at least it allows the user to choose):

[BUG] HDMI output quantization range flags indicate limited range regardless of reference levels

Now, I don't remember having this problem on my previous TV, which does not support full range input at all. Perhaps the Mini correctly employs a limited range when attached to such a display. I still have that TV so I'll hook it up when I get some time and look at the color palette test that I used.

Well, i think so. When switching between HDMI mode (RGB limited) and DVI mode (RGB full) on the Mini i see a clear difference. With RGB limited the colors are oversaturated and some color gradients are not visible when compared to RGB full over DVI mode. When switching to color output YUV it looks more or less identical to RGB full so that is my solution for now. However, whenever i change output resolution on the Mini it reverts back to RGB limited.

On my TV there are some additional HDMI settings that i can be switched on or off. These are "Activate content type" and "Instaport". I have tried switching these on/off with the same results every time - RGB limited. Maybe i should try another HDMI cable.. grasping at straws here

[marqs]

Firstly, do you know the exact circumstances that determine which the Mini chooses? All I know is that I'm getting full range output on mine while using the RGB input port..

I haven't figured out the exact logic, but for me 50Hz input usually ends up limited and 60Hz full.

Secondly, what equipment could I use to examine the properties of the HDMI signal (ideally without spending too much money)? It would be nice to take the guesswork out of this.

HDMI analyzers can be used for infoframe extraction, but they are not cheap. Perhaps some capture cards allow extraction too.

[marqs]

Well, i think so. When switching between HDMI mode (RGB limited) and DVI mode (RGB full) on the Mini i see a clear difference. With RGB limited the colors are oversaturated and some color gradients are not visible when compared to RGB full over DVI mode. When switching to color output YUV it looks more or less identical to RGB full so that is my solution for now. However, whenever i change output resolution on the Mini it reverts back to RGB limited.

On my TV there are some additional HDMI settings that i can be switched on or off. These are "Activate content type" and "Instaport". I have tried switching these on/off with the same results every time - RGB limited. Maybe i should try another HDMI cable.. grasping at straws here

Oversaturated colors and black/white clamping would indicate that Mini is outputting full-range, while TV is in limited-range mode. It's only a guess, but I think your TV switches into full-range mode instead of Mini when you select DVI mode.

[kerframil]

Oversaturated colors and black/white clamping would indicate that Mini is outputting full-range, while TV is in limited-range mode. It's only a guess, but I think your TV switches into full-range mode instead of Mini when you select DVI mode.

I concur. Given the symptoms described, it makes perfect sense.

[Yamato]

With a cheap ($30) component to HDMI converter the HDMI inputs now work very well for systems like Wii, XBox, Cube or Playstation [...] compared to the broken 480p upscaling on the component input, this is a blessing.

Very interesting, thanks for the information!

As I don't own a component to HDMI converter yet would someone be so kind to post some screens for comparison

[RGB32E]

It looks like 1080p scanlines are finally fixed in v1.10 firmware. I didn't notice anyone posting this information! All you have to do is set ZOOM_SIZE to 90! When zoom is enabled, scanline odd/even is disabled, and the uniform scanline setting is active. Picture is from the NESRGB kit.

[pyrotek85]

It looks like 1080p scanlines are finally fixed in v1.10 firmware. I didn't notice anyone posting this information! All you have to do is set ZOOM_SIZE to 90! When zoom is enabled, scanline odd/even is disabled, and the uniform scanline setting is active. Picture is from the NESRGB kit.

Oh that's cool, I guess I had better update the firmware then.

[Fudoh]

But isn't that a coincidence ? You could achieve nice scanlines with any odd resolution before (even the DVI ones) by adjusting the V_WIDTH option long enough. Setting the ZOOM_SIZE to 90 is likely the same as setting using SMARTx2 as the aspect ratio, which worked fine for 1080p scanlines before.

[RGB32E]

But isn't that a coincidence ? You could achieve nice scanlines with any odd resolution before (even the DVI ones) by adjusting the V_WIDTH option long enough. Setting the ZOOM_SIZE to 90 is likely the same as setting using SMARTx2 as the aspect ratio, which worked fine for 1080p scanlines before.

Have you mentioned this before? Setting the ZOOM_SIZE to 90 isn't the same as SMARTx2, as the image is much larger. The overall functionality is different with the new firmware.

[Fudoh]

I'll give it a try. The problem with playing with the zoom settings is that the scanlines are "hard" overlaid and on most zoom settings this simply causes a misalignment with the pixel rows. If you got a perfect hit with zoom size 90, that's great. I'll have to see why it seems this much larger than Smartx2 (which is 960 lines). Since the scanlines are still overlaid after the scaling process you'd have to run into either some misalignment or into some irregular space ones. Just I guess though - let me have a look at it first.....

[Smashbro29]

I'll give it a try. The problem with playing with the zoom settings is that the scanlines are "hard" overlaid and on most zoom settings this simply causes a misalignment with the pixel rows. If you got a perfect hit with zoom size 90, that's great. I'll have to see why it seems this much larger than Smartx2 (which is 960 lines). Since the scanlines are still overlaid after the scaling process you'd have to run into either some misalignment or into some irregular space ones. Just I guess though - let me have a look at it first.....

Neat 1080p scanlines! (kinda)

[EmperorZelos]

I wish I could use 1080p D: I still get misscoloured pixels! and I don't mean individual ones but entire segments that goes ballistic