XRGB-mini Framemeister

[MMJuno]

Picture this as what scanlines should look like, where "o" is a normal line, and "-" is the scanline:

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In 1080, it looks more like:

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I've found that you can play around with the settings for both the even and odd scanline settings at the same time to get something a little closer to normal, but it seems impossible to get them to match width and intensity.

One exception is if you limit yourself to Smart x2 mode only in 1080. Then the scanlines looks fairly accurate, but otherwise, they're garbage.

[EmperorZelos]

Gotta try that but the question is, the TV is in 1080 and the signal comes in as 720, doesn't that introduce more input lag?

[Fudoh]

no, usually not.

[ZellSF]

Anyone done any input lag comparisons between playing PSX games on a PS3 and playing them on a real PSX and upscaling them with the XRGB-mini?

Huge difference? Small difference?

[tfountas]

Help needed.
I have a PAL Snes with RGB scart going to a xrgb-mini.
The picture on all normal setttings shows a slight halo around graphics and text. It is never razor sharp like some of the pictures and video I have seen.
Is there any optimal settings to use for this hardware configuration?
Any help would be great.
thanks!

[ruger]

Did some quick inital tests of a few 15kHz RGB systems on the XRGB Mini today:

* Atari 1040STE (50 Hz)
* Atari Jaguar (50 Hz)
* Mattel Intellivision (French RGB version, 50 Hz)
* Panasonic FS-A1GT MSX Turbo R (with RGB SCART cable from retrogamingcables.co.uk)
* Panasonic 3DO FZ-10 (RGB modded, 480i)
* IGS PGM + Supergun MAK Strike
* SNK Neo Geo MVS MV-1B + Supergun MAK Strike
* Taito G-NET + MAK Strike (First version, JAMMA L-pin mod)

All looked good to me
The STE looked better with a SCART switch and an Extron Matrix between it and the XRGB Mini, then it did directly connected

The PGM in TATE on my good old Sony W4500 was the highlight of the evening....

[Fudoh]

The STE looked better with a SCART switch and an Extron Matrix between it and the XRGB Mini, then it did directly connected

care to comment a little more on this ? Not that I have or want an Atari ST, but the circumstances intrigue me

[ruger]

care to comment a little more on this ? Not that I have or want an Atari ST, but the circumstances intrigue me

Directly connected to the XRGB Mini there is some bending on upper part of the picture.
If the SYNC LEVEL setting is reduced on the Mini, the bending moves up (the bending is reduced).
If the SYNC LEVEL setting is increased the bending moves down and effects a larger part of the picture.

If the signal goes through the two switches there is no bending at all.

I opened the RGB SCART used in the test see how it was wired up:
The cable takes HSYNC and VSYNC from Atari ST/STE video connector pins (9 and 13). Each signal line goes through a 330 ohm resistor. The signals are then combined into CSYNC simply by connecting the wires together. CSYNC then goes into both pin 20 (video) and 16 (RGB blanking) on the SCART.

[fogueman]

Hi guys, after some time and following advice from some of you, I finally ordered the Retrogamingcables.uk Scart to Framemeister Mini with the sync stripper thing (LM1881).

It has solved my sync problems with Neo Geo Aes. Don´t know about Megadrive as I dont have the console handy right now, but i´m almost sure it does..

Any drawback when using this circuit? I haven´t noticed any lag, as didn´t before. Looks perfect to me now. Anyway i´m keeping the other scart to rgb mini without the circuit, just in case.


Will I have any advantage with the systems which were working without the sync stripper, separator or whatever?, On Saturn it was totally perfect. On psx i had to set sync level to 18, any other level would cause sync problems at random.


Thanks for your advice

[Fudoh]

The sync stripper in line won't hurt, but you might run into problems when a system doesn't apply the proper voltage to power the LM1881. In this you might end up with a blank screen and have to switch to the adapter without the stripper instead.

[fagin]

So what's the deal with the MINI and the use of a sync stripper? I was under the impression that it wasn't needed whilst using the later FW. The post above would appear to suggest otherwise.

I'm already stating to people who contact me about this, that a sync stripper is no longer needed.

[fogueman]

@Fudoh then it´s a good thing to keep both adapters, just as I thought

@fagin I asked you about this point in your tube channel, and you replied that it wasn´t needed. I had read some other reports of people with similar trouble and thought... well, it´s only 20 more euro when I´ve spent a lot of money in this device. Obviously it was needed. Also, I have to say that I read reports of people not having any trouble with their Neo Geo Aes. Maybe it has to do with the cables or whatever. I´ve learnt that if you want to use the Framemeister, you need good quality cables. I had a shitty Psx scart rgb, and now have changed to a Blaze Rgb (much better) and the improvement is obvious.

[fagin]

Hence why I'm asking for clarity on this. I don't want to give out information that isn't 100% or has caveats without detailing them.

My setup has the sync stripper included, so when I tested I didn't have any other choice.

[Fudoh]

The AES is the only system (of the major ones) I don't own, so I have no experience with that.

Many of the problematic setups decribed here in the thread were using earlier FW revisions. The first half year or so I was unable to use my PCE without adding an additional stripper. Now it runs perfectly fine and so do all my other systems.

[fogueman]

Ok, fagin. I´m not an expert, got the Framemeister one month ago. But at least for me the Neo Geo aes is NOT working without the sync circuit. I don´t know the results that other members in this forum obtained, but at least I can confirm it doesn´t work for me with the regular cable, and worked instantly when I used the sync stripper.

My Neo Geo Aes is a Pal machine, modified for 60hz output.

Will comment on the Megadrive As soon as I can test it (I think I have a PAL one laying around here, but my modified one isnt here).


I watched your review after getting the framemeister, so I knew something was wrong on my setup. It was the sync stripper.

[Fudoh]

There certainly is no easy yes/no answer to AES and MD, since both systems can output raw sync already on their own, if used with the right cables (and on the AES with the right board revision).

[Joelepain]

The sync stripper seems to be still needed for some isolated cases.
For example, I have a french n64 and it work without any problem with pal games.

But running a ntsc game through a 64drive or a passport III plus and the refresh rate is 61hz instead of the regular 59.94hz (according to the mini status page)
Using video sync only and the image is going crazy, no matter how the sync level is set in the mini (in fact, increasing the sync level fix the problem temporarily but after a while it comes back)
Using a sync stripper and the problem is all gone. Using "luma sync" and the problem is gone too.
But there is still another problem: the mini does not detect changes between 240p and 480i, no matter if I'm using video sync, luma sync, with and without sync stripper. And this problem does not appear with pal games at all.

Beside that, my gamecube is working like a charm without the sync stripper, but that's because the hardware was designed to output proper 50hz and 59.94hz, no matter the region.

[GohanX]

I think you can lump me in with the guys still having sync issues, at least with two systems. My Mini has 1.08 firmware.

Model 2 US Saturn with cheapo RGB scart cable displays weird picture, I crank the sync up to about 25 and the image is normal, but not stable. It loses sync pretty frequently, rendering the game unplayable. Earlier in the thread someone had a similar issue that was fixed by connecting all the ground pins in the SCART cable, but this did not help me. If I use the same cable with a CSY-2100 and connect it to mini through component, it works fine.

Model 2 Genesis with good quality RGB scart cable is playable, but the image shakes or drops once in a while. I opened up the scart connector and it appears to be made correctly with all the components that are supposed to be there but some builders leave out, and the 5V line is connected. I might try a LM1881 in there to see if it fixed the problem.

I've been mostly playing the SNES on this thing, but the Genesis looks SO GOOD through this thing. I mean, I've been playing it in component on a SDTV for years and it still blew me away.

[lettuce]

So other than the 1080p scanlines, screen refresh/initialisation time, and adding profile presets what else needs to be fixed in the next FW??

PS can the above issues actually be fixed??

Regarding the scanlines in 1080p wouldn't they be super fine and hard to see if they are the same for 720p....

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Should they be....

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....for 1080p?

[Fudoh]

what else needs to be fixed in the next FW??

a lot.

Regarding the scanlines in 1080p wouldn't they be super fine and hard to see if they are the same for 720p....

it's more complicated than this. It's about the processing order: if you want proper scalines on any output resolution, they have to be added before the upscaling process and not just overlayed afterwards.

The suggested "two lines off, two lines on" method just works in the 2x (960 line) mode.

[brentsg]

Is there an HDMI switch that works well with the Framemeister?

I'm suddenly 2 HDMI ports short on my display and I'm currently using component in for things as a fall-back. I don't want to mess with an AVR, but if I get an HDMI switch I need something that can be easily programmed to my remote. I'll also want something that's high quality, similar to Zektor's component switches.

I'm definitely not looking for anything with auto-switching, remote controlled only. Also not looking for handshake nightmares.

Thanks for feedback.

[ZellSF]

So, I now have a TV that will give sync problems with the XRGB+PS2.

Currently using this cable. Anyone knows if it has a built in sync cleaner?

If it has a sync cleaner I should get a cable without one, right? And if it doesn't have a sync cleaner I should try to get one that has one?

[broken harbour]

Anyone done any input lag comparisons between playing PSX games on a PS3 and playing them on a real PSX and upscaling them with the XRGB-mini?

Huge difference? Small difference?

While I have no hard data to back it up, I did notice a difference playing a few shmups and fighting games like Tekken. Playing them on the PS3 resulted in a nearly unplayable mess. With the PS1 + XRGB Mini, I don't notice any lag, though there is probably a little bit.

[ruger]

Hooked up the Philips Videopac C7401 (French RGB version) to the Mini today. The official RGB SCART that comes with the C7401 only have ground on pin 17 and pin 4 - so I added ground to pin 18.

The picture had some minor sync issues at SYNC LEVEL = 9, but they got much worse if the SYNC LEVEL was adjusted up or down. I connected it via a Sync Strike instead and the picture was close to perfect.

[marqs]

Anyone done any input lag comparisons between playing PSX games on a PS3 and playing them on a real PSX and upscaling them with the XRGB-mini?

Huge difference? Small difference?

While I have no hard data to back it up, I did notice a difference playing a few shmups and fighting games like Tekken. Playing them on the PS3 resulted in a nearly unplayable mess. With the PS1 + XRGB Mini, I don't notice any lag, though there is probably a little bit.

Yeah, PS1/2 emulation is quite laggy on PS3 - I'd say it's 3-4 frames at least. Compared to that, Mini's 1-2 frames is much better.

[DJ Mike]

Newbie question here (since there's a huge amount of discussion in this thread) - have they fixed the XRGB-Mini so it scales fully to 1920x1200 displays yet (i.e. no windowboxing)? Or is it still 1080-only?

[Fudoh]

The maximum ACTIVE vertical resolution is still 1080.

If you want to use the Mini on a 16:10 display, it makes more sense to use DVI mode with something like 1280x960.

[ruger]

Got the Extron 192 today. It worked fine with both 480i and 480p from the PS2!

Tests:
PS2 -> SS -> Extron 192 -> XRGB Mini or Lumagen VisionPro HDP
Extron 192 has DDSP on/up. All other dips off/down.

PS2 480i --RGBcvS--> Sync Strike --RGBS--> Extron 192 ---RGBS----> XRGB Mini (GOOD)
PS2 480p --RGsB----> Sync Strike --RGsB--> Extron 192 ---RGsBS---> XRGB Mini (GOOD)

PS2 480i --RGBcvS--> Sync Strike --RGBS--> Extron 192 ---RGBS----> Lumagen VisionPro HDP (PICTURE*)
PS2 480p --RGsB----> Sync Strike --RGsB--> Extron 192 ---RGsBS---> Lumagen VisionPro HDP (GOOD)
PS2 480p --RGsB----> Sync Strike --RGsB--> Extron 192 ---RGsBS---> Lumagen VisionPro HDP in RGsB mode (GOOD)

(*) same issue as described earlier in this thread, which I think somehow is related to high signal level into the Extron.

Summary:
The Extron 192 works great - including with RGsB signal as input.

Comment:
Earlier in this thread I tried to get Extron 160xi to do the same thing (PS2 480p RGsB -> 480p RGBS).
I did not get it to work with the 160xi, therefore I can not recommended it for RGsB/SOG input tasks.
I would get a 192 instead

[fogueman]

Ok guys, I have finally tested my Megadrive with the Framemeister and the Scart cable with the Sync circuit LM1881

It looks stunning, just like the rest of all the other 240p systems.

So, definitely, I can state that all the problems I had with the framemeister got solved when I added the sync circuit, both Neo Geo Aes and Megadrive running like a charm now. I also happened to have a shitty Rgb Cable for the Megadrive. Changed it for a new one and everything is ok now.

Now that the 240p consoles circle is closed, I will have to ask you guys some questions about the Framemeister and Ps2 480i soon

[Konsolkongen]

Got the Extron 192 today. It worked fine with both 480i and 480p from the PS2!
...

Glad to hear it, and sorry I was so slow to get back to you. So does the LED stay green when inputting 480p RGsB?