Lag on the XRGB-Mini

[KishSquared]

Hi all,

I just purchased the XRGB-Mini for upscaling competitive games such as SSBM, but I'm so far disappointed with the lag. I'm hoping I just have a setting wrong or can otherwise improve this somehow, as the Mini is sadly useless to me as such. Does anyone have experience with ultra-competitive play on the XRGB-Mini, or can anyone guide me towards the best configuration? The menu claims 1.37ms lag, but that can't be correct.

Current setup is a Wii connecting via component cables (via D-terminal adapter), so 480i input. Output is to an LCD screen via 720p or 1080p. I found one site that recommended Natural for interlace signals and Picture for progressive. Playing in Natural mode is sluggish and not 'tight' like when playing on a tube TV. Picture causes all sorts of weird graphical issues.

I'm not opposed to connecting the Wii via 240p if that helps, but it seems like that shouldn't be the recommended solution. Independent of lag, the screen image isn't razor sharp at all, so I'm sincerely hoping I just have settings wrong. If you have advice, please share!!

Thanks

Jeff

[Fudoh]

You're right about the lag. The stated delay on the status screen is wrong. Might be a frame multiplicator instead (so 1.37 x 17ms).

The picture settings (natural, picture, anime ...) just affect the deinterlacing mode used and low pass filter settings, but they don't change anything about the lag. You get the same input lag for all input signals, 240p, 480i, 480p.

If you need lower lag, get a Wii HDMI dongle* and set your Wii to 480p. This way you get 480p HDMI and the dongle just does a line conversion, so your lag is actually in the 1-2ms range.

(*make sure to get one without integrated scaling)

[KishSquared]

Thanks Fudoh! I can try that out, but do I really need an HDMI output on the Wii to get 480p? Seems strange that I couldn't achieve 480p via component. I'll look into it.

Wii aside, I tested on the Gamecube via composite RCA connections, so assumedly 240p. The lag is the same, so the progressive signal didn't seem to help. Or am I misunderstanding the technology? (I'm very, VERY new to this.) Strange thing is that I checked the Full Status on the Mini and it claimed to be receiving 480i still. I didn't think that was possible via standard RCA output. Is the Mini's reporting wrong?

Thanks in advance!

[Fudoh]

You can get 480p from your Wii via component, no problem, but HDMI give you better quality (less processing on your TV's side) and most often the component input has more lag as well. (just to clarify: we're talking a HDMI dongle INSTEAD of the XRGB).

Cube via composite is 480i. 240p vs. 480i is not a question of the signal transmission, but of the system's generation. You require component for 480p.

[KishSquared]

Oh, I misunderstood - you're saying to buy the dongle instead of the Mini. So the Mini won't actually get rid of the lag? I'm not sure why a $25 dongle would operate better than the $400+ upscaler :/

Is there any way to play Gamecube on an HDTV without lag? I guess I thought that was the entire point to using one of these upscalers, aside from the crisp graphics.

[shmuppyLove]

I've seen Wii VGA cables for around $20.

Not sure if the picture quality is any good, but most HDTVs will have less lag if you're using the VGA input.

But honestly I would expect quality and compatibility with Gamecube 480p output to be spotty ... but hey, for $20 it might be worth a shot?

[Fudoh]

Both the VGA cables and the HDMI dongles for the Wii are just transcoders (HDMI with added A/D conversion) which use the 480p component signal from the Wii's output. They are both 100% compatible with all 480p-enabled titles, but are - on the other hand - incompatible with all 480i-only titles. For HDMI there's the slight compatibiliy that your TV can work with 480i through HDMI, but most often they can't.

Oh, I misunderstood - you're saying to buy the dongle instead of the Mini. So the Mini won't actually get rid of the lag? I'm not sure why a $25 dongle would operate better than the $400+ upscaler

looks like it, yes.

Is there any way to play Gamecube on an HDTV without lag? I guess I thought that was the entire point to using one of these upscalers, aside from the crisp graphics.

you have to differentiate a bit between 15khz sources (240p and 480i) and 31khz ones (480p). For 15khz sources the XRGB is better (and faster) then almost all TV sets out there. TVs can easily add 60+ ms in order to process a 15khz signal by deinterlacing it before upscaling.

Traditionally better deinterlacing takes more time and for the quality the XRGB delivers for 15khz sources, it's actually outstanding. UNFORTUNATELY 480p signals run through the same signal chain within the Mini as 15khz signals do and thus have to deal with the very same delay.

If you use a VGA transcoder or a HDMI dongle on your Wii and set your Wii to 480p output, you don't have to deal with any added processing lag and you minimize your TV's lag by delivering an already progressive signal.

[KishSquared]

Okay, got it. I guess I'm still somewhat unclear as to why the component won't do the same thing as HDMI/VGA, but I could give that a shot. So if the 480i input is 15khz, and the Mini is as fast as it gets in upscaling 15khz signals, then where is the lag introduced?

Forgive me as I try to learn what all this means. My head is spinning with all these terms such as deinterlacing, etc. I have zero experience in this field.

Off the subject of lag, I have yet to get a crisp signal out of my Wii. Is that expected with the Mini? Again, everyone raves about this box so much that I figure I must be doing all of this wrong. I was expecting a beautiful image but so far have gotten fuzziness and lag Starting to wonder if I bought the right box, and I'm hoping the return policy is kind to me.

[Fudoh]

Okay, got it. I guess I'm still somewhat unclear as to why the component won't do the same thing as HDMI/VGA

it might, but that depends on the TV. Component inputs are always meant for video signals and always also support interlaced signals, so their signal path runs always through the deinterlacer. VGA is always *only* meant for progressive PC sources and HDMI usually is at least designed with PC or consoles in mind.

So if the 480i input is 15khz, and the Mini is as fast as it gets in upscaling 15khz signals, then where is the lag introduced?

it's the combination of the XRGB (~25ms) and your TV or monitor (up to 50ms). If you take a 15khz signal directly to your TV set, you'll most likely end up with more lag than running through the Mini.

Off the subject of lag, I have yet to get a crisp signal out of my Wii. Is that expected with the Mini?

make sure to use picture mode natural for 480i sources and picture for 480p ones. Then have a look at the scaler settings. Either set the preset to game or manually adjust the H_ and V_SCALER settings. The video preset will somewhat blur your picture as will certain manual scaler settings.

[HydrogLox]

Off the subject of lag, I have yet to get a crisp signal out of my Wii.

This complaint is typically associated with the Wii running in "Standard TV (480i)" mode. If your display has a component input hook your Wii up directly and switch it to "EDTV or HDTV (480p)".

Wii: How to Adjust the TV Resolution

At this point the picture is as crisp as it can get and any lag is due to the display's filters (movie,game,sports, etc. modes) and scaling circuitry. If the display itself is not capable of using 480i (like a computer monitor) then 480i material will not display at all.

I just purchased the XRGB-Mini for upscaling competitive games such as SSBM

According to this list "Super Smash Bros. Melee" in particular supports 480p (but not 16:9). Once you enable 480p on the Wii, a "Enable Prog. scan Y N" prompt should appear when you insert the "Super Smash Bros. Melee" game disc - select "Y" to use 480p. If the prompt does not appear, press the "B" button while the GameCube game boots up to force it into 480p mode.

Current setup is a Wii connecting via component cables (via D-terminal adapter), so 480i input. Output is to an LCD screen via 720p or 1080p.

Well, what is the native resolution of your LCD display? It is essential that XRGB-Mini's output is set to match the native resolution of the display to ensure that the display does not have to do any internal scaling which may introduce additional lag. If you input a 1080p (1920x1080) video signal into a 2560x1440 computer LCD panel the scaler in the display will have to scale the image a second time (unless you specifically configure the monitor to only use the center 1920x1080 matrix of the overall 2560x1440 panel). The XRGB-Mini does support some other output resolutions besides the standard 640x480, 1280x720 and 1920x1080 for this reason. Also in general computer LCD panels do not accept interlaced signals (480i) - so for games that do not support 480p you have to use the XRGB-Mini's de-interlacing circuitry to display them on a computer LCD panel.

If you need lower lag, get a Wii HDMI dongle* and set your Wii to 480p. This way you get 480p HDMI and the dongle just does a line conversion, so your lag is actually in the 1-2ms range.

(*make sure to get one without integrated scaling)

According to this NeoGAF topic the Neoya WII2HDMI is the way to go - because it doesn't scale.

In consequences, if we want to ensure that the external upscaler has better performance than the internal upscaler, the eventual price of the product will be extremely expensive (around hundreds at least!). If not, the effects of the external upscalers is either not obvious or the performance is less satisfactory than the internal upscalers.

For all the above reasons, we suppose that there is no need to have our customers redundantly invested in the same function to acquire some effects you can not really expect. In addition, the premier pricing does not correspond to the positioning of the Wii2HDMI. Therefore, we chose not to add the upscaler function into the Wii2HDMI.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Neoya WII2HDMI doesn't de-interlace either. It simply feeds the "digitized 480i" over HDMI which computer monitors and even some TVs*** cannot deal with.

(*** as their de-interlacing circuitry may be dedicated to the legacy analog inputs (if there are any) rather than the HDMI inputs)

EDIT: Have you considered the possibility that you may be using a display with inherently high "input lag"? Input lag isn't something manufacturers put into the specifications because it doesn't affect most consumers. But as you can see from the Input Lag Database for Best Gaming HDTVs & Monitors input lag can vary considerably between current monitors and HDTVs. For best results the XRGB-Mini should be paired with a display that has low input lag (See also Leo's exciting hand held LAG TEST device - out now!).

[KishSquared]

My apologies for bringing a dead topic back to life. I hit a busy season in my life and am finally returning to this. Hard to believe I've been sitting on a $500 upscaler for 6 months, but that's how it is

So I've tried many suggestions in this thread, including purchasing the Wii2HDMI adapter. I hate to continually be the noob, but my head is swirling from all the terminology being tossed around. Needless to say, I have mad respect for anyone who understands all this stuff! Resolution is an insanely foreign concept to me, so I don't understand things like deinterlacing. That said, I'd like to ask if there's a tried and true way to play Gamecube or Wii games on an HDTV without lag. If the Framemeister doesn't work, and the Wii2HDMI doesn't work, is there any other way to do it? I still need to look into whether my TV itself suffers from input lag.

Even if the input lag issue cannot be resolved, I'd love to get some use out of this box. However, I have no investment in RGB connectors for any of my old systems. I'm not sure how to connect an NES, my SNES is a 'new' model and I understand I would need to open it up and solder some wires to make it RGB-capable? I do have an original model Gamecube with component output, but I'm not sure if that's RGB or if I need a special wire - I was told by an ebay shop owner that there are no RGB cables for US Gamecubes? Finally, I'd love to upscale Wii graphics if that's possible, but when I run it natively into the Framemeister it still looks like trash on my screen.

Many thanks to everyone who has contributed and anyone else who may chime in. I'm just feeling frustrated as I clearly bought a box that's over my head, and I've been trying to understand it but feel like it's useless to someone who just owns old systems and wants to play them lag-free and with crisp graphics. I'm still holding out hope that this is all somehow just user error, but it seems I'm hitting roadblocks at every turn.

Jeff

[Fudoh]

if there's a tried and true way to play Gamecube or Wii games on an HDTV without lag

The minimum lag of your setup is always what your TV or monitor introduces on it's own for progressive signals. If you get a $20 HDMI dongle for your Wii, than that's the fastest way of connecting your Wii (fast in the sense of low lag).

If you use the Framemeister for any processing, you're replacing your TV's processing with that of the Mini. Most TVs will have a higher lag processing 15khz signals (that's 480i, no matter if composite, s-video, RGB or component) than the Mini does, so you ultimately minimize your lag in comparison to using your TV for the full processing.

For lag reasons you should bypass the Mini whenever your source can already output 31khz (480p). The Wii does this on most games, the Cube on a good number. In both instances you need component cables for that.

[kamiboy]

Have you heard the good news about CRT?

In the world of pre-HD gaming there are no magic solutions, expect for our lord, the phosphorescent CRT.

[KishSquared]

Thanks again for the input, Fudoh - and thanks especially for tying the frequencies to resolutions, I had never understood that relationship.

I have the Wii HDMI dongle, so maybe my TV is the source of lag. If that's the case, and you're saying that the Framemeister will replace the processing of the TV, should I see an improvement by routing the HDMI dongle through the upscaler? Or does that only work well with 480i?

Off-topic question, but would you (or anyone) be able to give me some quick tips about how to get my NES and Gamecube to look beautiful through the Framemeister? Or the Wii for that matter - it's not 'crisp' like I was expecting. Regardless of lag, I'd love these old systems to look good (kind of the point of this thing, isn't it??).

kamiboy - I suspect my salvation will eventually come in the form of downloadable forms of these games on newer systems Until that happens, though, I'm just trying to do what I can. I'd really love to put the 24" tube TV out in the dumpster, seeing as I have two HDTVs in my basement already, lol.

[Fudoh]

I have the Wii HDMI dongle, so maybe my TV is the source of lag. If that's the case, and you're saying that the Framemeister will replace the processing of the TV, should I see an improvement by routing the HDMI dongle through the upscaler? Or does that only work well with 480i?

no, if you input a 480p source into the Mini, the Mini's lag gets added to the TV's native lag.

[Galgomite]

Respectfully, your HDTV should be top priority here. If you're outputting 480p from your Wii to the HDMI dongle and going directly to your TV (no receiver), and you're playing with wired controllers, then your TV is the only appreciable source of lag in the chain. From there, if your TV isn't the weak link, then you're just too sensitive to lag to use an LCD/ plasma for gaming. EDIT: And BTW, keep in mind that emulated versions of games will have lag of their own built right in.

[EmperorZelos]

the TV does make a huge differens, with a new TV of my own the lag was almost eliminated (extremely small) and the framemeister does wonders too.

[matrigs]

The picture settings (natural, picture, anime ...) just affect the deinterlacing mode used and low pass filter settings, but they don't change anything about the lag. You get the same input lag for all input signals, 240p, 480i, 480p.

Wait - so does the Mini have the same amount of lag for processing progressive and interlace signals? Or do you mean that changing the picture settings doesn't affect each modes lag?

[Fudoh]

Iirc both, neither the signal nor the processing mode changes anything about the lag - at least for the analogue inputs. On my last test processed HDMI was a little faster (I think 17 compared to 24ms) and passthrough HDMI was basically lag free.

[fagin]

Both.

[brownvim]

With all due respect, if your a competitive gamer you should be using a low lag monitor. HDTVs just don't cut it when it comes to input lag.

I would not recommend the XRGB-Mini for competitive gaming either, go with the XRGB-3 in B1 mode for retro.

[Fudoh]

Sony W6 + Framemeister is still under 2 frames. That's pretty much ok for 99% of all gamers.

[broken harbour]

Using an LG 60PS60 plasma and and XRGB-mini into my receiver, the only console I notice lag on is the Wii. In fact I notice input lag on the Wii going straight into my TV..... the problem itself is likely the Wii.

I can competitively play fighting games on my Saturn and PS1 with Zero lag issues.

Playing a PS1 disc on the PS3 on the other hand..... ick.

[eightbitminiboss]

With all due respect, if your a competitive gamer you should be using a low lag monitor. HDTVs just don't cut it when it comes to input lag.

I would not recommend the XRGB-Mini for competitive gaming either, go with the XRGB-3 in B1 mode for retro.

An XRGB-Mini was used for SDA's SGDQ 2013 and it didn't appear to affect the speedrunners much.

https://twitter.com/digitaldiatribe/sta ... 9931452419

[blizzz]

An XRGB-Mini was used for SDA's SGDQ 2013 and it didn't appear to affect the speedrunners much.

https://twitter.com/digitaldiatribe/sta ... 9931452419

I always thought that they used a splitter in front of the XRGB to play on a CRT. The lag would ruin any frame perfect stuff if the runner isn't used to it.

[Sixfortyfive]

Sony W6 + Framemeister is still under 2 frames. That's pretty much ok for 99% of all gamers.

I certainly don't think it's OK for fighting games in a competitive environment, which is relevant to the OP.

[brownvim]

With fighting games you have 1 frame links for combos, it just "feels" wrong when it's 2 frames off the pace.

[Galgomite]

Using an LG 60PS60 plasma and and XRGB-mini into my receiver, the only console I notice lag on is the Wii.

Could your receiver be doing any upscaling?

[broken harbour]

Using an LG 60PS60 plasma and and XRGB-mini into my receiver, the only console I notice lag on is the Wii.

Could your receiver be doing any upscaling?

Not that I know of, I output 1080/60p from the XRGB so the Receiver and TV don't have to do any scaling at all.

Maybe that's why?

[Galgomite]

Using an LG 60PS60 plasma and and XRGB-mini into my receiver, the only console I notice lag on is the Wii.

Could your receiver be doing any upscaling?

Not that I know of, I output 1080/60p from the XRGB so the Receiver and TV don't have to do any scaling at all.

Maybe that's why?

It's a possibility. I'm not an expert but from what I've read, the more expensive/ feature-packed a receiver is, the more likely it is to cause lag. On-screen menus and upscaling features could be in the way even when they aren't needed. It's probably just the TV, though.