XRGB-mini Framemeister

[MMJuno]

I've had my XRGB mini for months, and never figured this out... why does it say UNSUPPORTED when I try to use Smart x2 mode?

If you're trying it on a 480 game while in 720p output, try it at 1080p instead. (i.e.: 960 lines won't fit into 720).

[stryc9]

Hello everyone

I'm looking at the Framemeister because I'm sick to death of the various geometry issues with the CRTs I own.

The alternative is my Samsung Plasma. OK. I would like to run an NTSCJ Mega Drive thru the mini framemeister in RGB. Currently I use a Scart to Component transcoder into a Panasonic CRT, with a synced Scart cable, but looking at the various images of the Framemeisters inputs, I can't see any Scart or component input on the unit.

Please forgive my ignorance, but how would this work with my setup?

Many thanks in advance. EDIT: OK i'm an idiot, I've seen the cable now!

[Fudoh]

but note that the included adapter cable is for japanese RGB21 cables, which have a different pin layout than your classic "Euro-Scart" cable.

[GohanX]

You can either get a euro scart to Japanese scart adapter, or Broken sells a replacement cable to let you use Euro scart cables on the Framemeister directly, but I'm not sure if he ships to Australia. For component, the Framemeister had a D-Terminal which is component with a different kind of plug, and you can buy an adapter from Solaris Japan if you are buying the Framemeister there.

[stryc9]

Thanks for the answers guys. Just to clarify, I'm using a Japanese Mega Drive w/ 21 pin Scart > Scart to Component Transcoder > Component input on the CRT. So the cable you get bundled with the Framemeister will be enough? I'm not using Euro Scart.

[GohanX]

As long as the cable you are using is wired to Japanese 21 pin, you will be fine, and you won't need the component transcoder anymore. However, make sure it's a Japanese cable. I only say that because the vast majority of these transcoders use a Euro scart pinout instead of Japanese.

[stryc9]

Ah, OK, thanks.

Any tips on reducing the Mega Drives coloured garbage borders when I get it hooked up? Do the service modes on these digital TVs generally have a position shift for their 4:3 ratios or is there something on the Framemeister that can help? I did see on Fudohs page that it some sort of masking for the border was on the wish list. For whatever reason the Japanese MD image is a little off centre, or so I seem to remember - I fixed this through my CRT service menu ages ago.

A great pity my CRT(s) have such geometry issues, since they have fantastic actual image quality. I'm so close to getting a perfect picture for these retro consoles, I have high hopes this Mini Framemeister will help me out with this

[Fudoh]

You can shift the image on the Mini. You can also activate a "retro mode", which masks the row of flickering pixels at the bottom of most Mega Drive games.

[RGB32E]

I just tried connecting the HDMI output from my 560Ti to the mini and was disappointed that the mini does chroma sub-sampling on the input! :[ What happened to the HDMI bypass feature?! I'd rather not add a HDMI switch to my setup. I have the mini set to 8-bit RGB output. I haven't tried 12-bit to see if it makes any difference yet. I'm guessing it won't.

About the retro mode masking. I find that it never masks out enough of the picture on the Genesis or NES to be useful. On top of that the transparent side masking of the 3rd retro mode makes for bright pillar lines on the sides of the source image. Did anything change with retro mode in v1.08?

[Fudoh]

I haven't tried 12-bit to see if it makes any difference yet. I'm guessing it won't.

it won't. The Marvell input is always downsampled to 4:2:2. Your TV doesn't support 4:4:4 either, does it ? Or do you use a monitor ?

I find that it never masks out enough of the picture on the Genesis or NES to be useful.

you're right about that. Still one of the retro settings at leasts masks that flickering line on the Mega Drive's output.

[Fudoh]

Just got myself a RGB-modded N64 - after at least 10 years without a N64.

Picture quality is pretty nice on the Mini, but to my surprise the usual prefered H_SCALER setting of 5 does not work on the N64 (or at least not on my N64). It results in the same false contour problem 480p inputs have usually to deal with. H_SCALER 10 is a decent replacement I guess (with V_SCALER 6). Almost as good and certainly the best I've ever seen from a N64. Bangai-oh looks almost like on the DC.

[RGB32E]

it won't. The Marvell input is always downsampled to 4:2:2. Your TV doesn't support 4:4:4 either, does it ? Or do you use a monitor ?

The XBR8 most certainly appears to support 4:4:4 - only in Game/Text mode. My test has been single pixel wide 255 RGB lines spaced against black. Clean in game mode. Does the X4500 differ?

I still do not like the sub sampling on the mini... Causes minute color ringing.

[Fudoh]

Clean in game mode. Does the X4500 differ?

Nice! And don't know. Never paid much attention to it. According to reviews no Sony TV over the past years supports 4:4:4. Only the new ones from this year manage it again.

[RGB32E]

Nice! And don't know. Never paid much attention to it. According to reviews no Sony TV over the past years supports 4:4:4. Only the new ones from this year manage it again.

Can you cite any sources? I don't get pixel bleed in game mode, so if it isn't 4:4:4, what could it be? The mini smears the test pattern.

[Fudoh]

I would have to check. I'm not saying you're seeing it wrong. If you got a proper test pattern and it looks clear, than it should be fine. The Mini is certainly down sampling - that's the Marvell's fault.

[RGB32E]

If the Marvell always sub samples I guess a HDMI bypass mode is out of the question for a FW update.

[Fudoh]

depends on the architecture. If they can bypass the Marvell alltogether, maybe then you might be able to get a 1:1 output of the HDMI inputs.

[RGB32E]

Want to open your mini and take detailed PCB shots?

[Fudoh]

I really don't care. I would have been happy if they replaced the HDMI inputs with a second component and a VGA input. Unless they bring vertical scanlines for those Yoko-360-Cave titles, I certainly won't use the HDMI inputs.

[marqs]

I just tried connecting the HDMI output from my 560Ti to the mini and was disappointed that the mini does chroma sub-sampling on the input! :[ What happened to the HDMI bypass feature?! I'd rather not add a HDMI switch to my setup. I have the mini set to 8-bit RGB output. I haven't tried 12-bit to see if it makes any difference yet. I'm guessing it won't.

About the retro mode masking. I find that it never masks out enough of the picture on the Genesis or NES to be useful. On top of that the transparent side masking of the 3rd retro mode makes for bright pillar lines on the sides of the source image. Did anything change with retro mode in v1.08?

Why not output RGB (from the GPU) instead of YCbCr to avoid subsampling? 560Ti should be even able to output 30bit RGB, although I'd say there's not that much benefit unless you use wide-gamut color spaces (e.g. AdobeRGB), but that's mainly for photography, not games.

[Konsolkongen]

As far as I know the Marvell chip subsamples everything, even RGB.

[marqs]

As far as I know the Marvell chip subsamples everything, even RGB.

So it converts RGB to YCbCr 4:2:2, does its processing, and finally converts back to RGB? That sounds quite BAD if true

[Konsolkongen]

Pretty sure that's how Fudoh explained it to me.

If you set output color to AUTO it might output in YCrCb though, so it only does one conversion

[Fudoh]

right on both accounts. Every video processor converts to YCbCr and (nearly) every single one to 4:2:2. That's because they're made for video material and video material is stored in 4:2:0 these days.

If you output in YCbCr you're usually just moving the second conversion from the Mini to the display. Eventually a display will have to convert to RGB. Displays who can display full 4:4:4 colors without down sampling usually offer a direct path for RGB signals.

Worst case though is something like this:

RGB signal 444 > YCbCr 422 in VP > Back to RGB 444 on the output > into YCbCr 422 in display > back to RGB 444 for the panel.

[slk486]

What settings are you guys using for the Wii?

[GohanX]

Hey, I was gonna ask that. I just got my Framemeister yesterday, and it looks awesome with everything I've thrown at it except for the Wii.

[Galgomite]

My Framemeister isn't playing nice with my HDMI switcher.
This is the switcher model:
http://www.amazon.com/Switch-switch-sou ... dmi+switch
Switch works with every other device I own but once the Mini is in the mix, nothing gets through. Everything including the Mini works if no switch is involved, but my old Sony 32" LCD only has one HDMI input. It's hard to believe the switch is at fault just because it won't work with this one device. Could this be an HDCP thing? If so, does anyone know how to turn HDCP on?

[marqs]

My Framemeister isn't playing nice with my HDMI switcher.
This is the switcher model:
http://www.amazon.com/Switch-switch-sou ... dmi+switch
Switch works with every other device I own but once the Mini is in the mix, nothing gets through. Everything including the Mini works if no switch is involved, but my old Sony 32" LCD only has one HDMI input. It's hard to believe the switch is at fault just because it won't work with this one device. Could this be an HDCP thing? If so, does anyone know how to turn HDCP on?

Have you tried disabling SPECIAL->TV_HOTPLUG?

[Galgomite]

[/quote]
Have you tried disabling SPECIAL->TV_HOTPLUG?[/quote]

Good idea but no luck.

[GohanX]

I have that same switch, but it's not connected at the moment. I'll see if I can figure something out. I had a similar problem with the Neo Geo X, when it was plugged up (even if not on) it did all kinds of craziness with the switch and even the TV's other HDMI port, and the issues were resolved when disconnecting the X. Also, some devices don't work properly with the auto switch function and I have to select them manually.

I've also found that some weird things happen with cheap HDMI cable. For the most part, any cheap HDMI cable will do with most devices, but I read that the switches have a hard time with 26 or 28 gauge cabling. I switched to some 25 gauge that I got from Amazon (still cheap, just not as cheap) and it resolved all problems except for the NGX.