Cave Matsuri 2013 (5/5)

[Shin]

Haha, yes indeed. Good to see you on the board
The demo was short and they didn't let you fiddle around on the menu so we'll have to wait and see.

Oh, I see, thanks for the report though!

It's very weird to see such a dead event when there was an event as big and successful as Wasshoi in Europe 2weeks ago :'(

I know that videogames companies (expecially japanese ones) tend to release some interesting games only for iOS and ignore Android (it's like they tell us that Apple's overpriced for nothing products sell more than affortable and much better Android smartphones) but since they bothered to release DoDonPachi Maximum for Windows smartphones as well why not to Android? What were they thinking?

[/quote]

"Better" how? Makes you wonder when you own a much more powerful android device than the latest idevice and apps run like on an iPhone 4 or 4S when lucky.
Android is all in all a shitty designed OS, unsynched audio and video, garbage processes in the background that decide to run all of a sudden, apps running under JavaVMs, unoptimised gadget UI stuff from Samsung/HTC/Sony that make your device crunch numbers for nothing etc...
Yes, Android is open, highend phones pack in ridiculously powerful chips(I know I have a Samsung galaxy note II), but Google dropped the ball on OS design, so to me iOS is much more power efficient and game friendly. (You'll be able to compare both in a few days when RetroArch comes out for iOS)

[O. Van Bruce]

They have plenty of experience making high res stuff for consoles and phones now, it's not like this is the first time they'll be doing that.

I don't think it will have any resemblance to their 360 ports. When they had to develop for 360 they had to take the graphical and artistic design the CV1000 allowed then to be shown and translate it to the 360. If they were to start improving the graphics too much they would end up with something almost completely different from the original arcade game in terms of artistical design.

Now, with an improved arcade hardware we can get things that weren't possible on the CV1000 like extra layers, better bullet designs, better sprites, etc. (I suppose)

In resume, just compare how DOJ looks with Daifukkatsu.

[trap15]

"Better" how? Makes you wonder when you own a much more powerful android device than the latest idevice and apps run like on an iPhone 4 or 4S when lucky.
Android is all in all a shitty designed OS, unsynched audio and video, garbage processes in the background that decide to run all of a sudden, apps running under JavaVMs, unoptimised gadget UI stuff from Samsung/HTC/Sony that make your device crunch numbers for nothing etc...
Yes, Android is open, highend phones pack in ridiculously powerful chips(I know I have a Samsung galaxy note II), but Google dropped the ball on OS design, so to me iOS is much more power efficient and game friendly. (You'll be able to compare both in a few days when RetroArch comes out for iOS)

This.

EDIT:

Now, with an improved arcade hardware we can get things that weren't possible on the CV1000 like extra layers, better bullet designs, better sprites, etc. (I suppose)

The CV1000 graphics hardware is only limited by how slow it is, and the output resolution. There are already infinite layers, and design has little to do with the hardware in this case.

[O. Van Bruce]

Now, with an improved arcade hardware we can get things that weren't possible on the CV1000 like extra layers, better bullet designs, better sprites, etc. (I suppose)

The CV1000 graphics hardware is only limited by how slow it is, and the output resolution. There are already infinite layers, and design has little to do with the hardware in this case.

Then what would happen when you get a hardware that isn't as slow? That is the question.

[trap15]

Then they'd just add more visual extravaganza like they've been doing with DFK and SDOJ, with less slowdown.

[O. Van Bruce]

Then they'd just add more visual extravaganza like they've been doing with DFK and SDOJ, with less slowdown.

So much more visual extravaganza that it will lag the new hardware.

But I hope they do something more than graphx with something more powerful.

[Udderdude]

Seriously, their games don't need any more crap flying around the screen, it's already hard enough to see what's going on in DFK and to a lesser extent SDOJ.

[IseeThings]

They could do something Darius style.. although that would be a dedicated cab, basically unportable, and a financial black hole.. but filling 3-4 screens with bullets would certainly mean more bullets...

[Udderdude]

They sure as fuck don't need any more bullet saturation, either. That gimmick is dead. They need some real gameplay innovations. Something they've never done before. Think outside the bullet cancelling box. D:

[O. Van Bruce]

They sure as fuck don't need any more bullet saturation, either. That gimmick is dead. They need some real gameplay innovations. Something they've never done before. Think outside the bullet cancelling box. D:

If I knew any good idea on how to use the power of an improved hardware I would be designing my own game or working at some videogame company As I mentioned, an extra processing power could mean cleaner and more beautiful effects but it can also mean something like Iseethings mentioned. The only thing I can do now is pray that good and innovative things come out from it.

[IseeThings]

well there are plenty of things they could try, but I'm sure the hardcore shooter bunch would scream at them for trying.

I've always wondered what something like Fantasy Zone, but Cave style would be like, having to fly around and position yourself against mini-bosses (instead of the regular bases) and tactically wipe those out while avoiding bullet storms, and trying to maximize your score when everything has a decreasing points value over time (and negative if you take too long?) before moving on to actual massive bosses.

So yeah there are possibilities, way they could vary things, but when Psikyo tried that with Sol Divide & Space Bomber everybody just screamed that it wasn't a shmup anymore.

That's really the problem, if you start doing anything other than creating more convoluted scoring systems you get people who start to declare the games to be non-shmups. Ikaruga is another example, ask a lot of people and it's a puzzle game (fair enough) would Cave fans be happy with a 'puzzle game'? I guess the irony is that if you play DDP for score, they are all puzzle games.

Maybe a game where the backgrounds play a greater role in the gameplay, without actually being obstacles? A ship that only powers up if it's in direct sunlight, not in the shadows, but start adding ideas like that and you get called a Euro shmup (although games like Raystorm of course use such a 'backgrounds are important' mechanic quite well with the lower level enemies imho)

If you make things stupidly complex you end up with Skull Fang, where the how to play screens are so lengthy and impossible to remember it barely works as an arcade game at all.

Kinda puts Cave in a difficult position

[Udderdude]

:: shrug :: I took some pretty big risks with Zero Cross and I feel they paid off, although I can't imagine Cave taking nearly as many risks all at once.

I can understand the fan backlash with "This isn't a shmup!", but at some point they at least have to make something besides flashy over the top bullet cancelling.

They used to be at least somewhat experimental with games like Dangun and Guwange, but that was ages ago.

[O. Van Bruce]

:: shrug :: I took some pretty big risks with Zero Cross and I feel they paid off, although I can't imagine Cave taking nearly as many risks all at once.

I can understand the fan backlash with "This isn't a shmup!", but at some point they at least have to make something besides flashy over the top bullet cancelling.

They used to be at least somewhat experimental with games like Dangun and Guwange, but that was ages ago.

I've been thinking that maybe if Crimzon Clover ends aup as a great hit for a long period Cave may try to do something less "moeblob" and more manly like they used to. Would be a nice and welcome change, specially among the shmup monks we have here

Anyway, doing something experimental is a hard stake for then now. Maybe it was a good idea when they were a small company back in the 90's but now it can cripple then like Akai Katana did. Maybe the "japanese company fist fuck" could make then do something unussual for once

[trap15]

Akai Katana was only experimental in the sense that it was horizontal. It was still overloaded with typical CAVE bullet canceling.

[IseeThings]

Well if you want experimental, maybe a game where you control the enemy spawn / fire rate directly (ie you have the button to make the enemies fire too) award points by number of bullets present, but have strict scoring targets for each stage you need to meet.

I'm sure ideas like this come up at CAVE meetings, but just get laughed out the door, but yes there are various creative ways you could turn the genre on it's head.

The problem is most of the good ideas HAVE been done before somewhere..

[Udderdude]

I've been thinking that maybe if Crimzon Clover ends aup as a great hit for a long period Cave may try to do something less "moeblob" and more manly like they used to.

Not really talking about theme as much as gameplay mechanics.

Crimzon Clover is very much Cave-inspired in that regard.

[IseeThings]

Well if you want experimental, maybe a game where you control the enemy spawn / fire rate directly (ie you have the button to make the enemies fire too) award points by number of bullets present, but have strict scoring targets for each stage you need to meet.

I'm sure ideas like this come up at CAVE meetings, but just get laughed out the door, but yes there are various creative ways you could turn the genre on it's head.

The problem is most of the good ideas HAVE been done before somewhere..

or extending this idea, a music themed game with a volume knob, that goes up to 11.. and basically directly controls rank whereby on 11 you have a near constant stream of 'noise bullets' being thrown at you and '0' is mute, where there are no bullets spawned. Your score target for the next stage could depend greatly on how much you scored in the previous stage.

then you have 'novelty' controls too (even if it really is just a dial)

I almost want to make it as a an unofficial sequel to Feveron :-p

[O. Van Bruce]

I've been thinking that maybe if Crimzon Clover ends aup as a great hit for a long period Cave may try to do something less "moeblob" and more manly like they used to.

Not really talking about theme as much as gameplay mechanics.

Crimzon Clover is very much Cave-inspired in that regard.

Yeah, I understood you were refering to gameplay but but this is the only "innovative" thing I can see coming from CAVE this days.

Returning to what we were discussing, I can see nothing bad in copying older ideas or mixing then if you can't come up with you own. As someone mentioned, the genre is so old that it's a great feat to create something new for it.

[emphatic]

They need to keep making what fans expect from them, but with even better (from a mainstream POV) production value.

Ideas that might pan out:

Going high res - great!
Going 3D - Great, just outsource the design to Treasure, Vanillaware or some other high caliber game design company
Add achievement codes - How about an arrange soundtrack that is unlocked if you clear the game with TYPE A? "Type" in the code shown at the right screen

Making a timing based music shmup would be really cool - Have popcorn enemies shaped as instruments and let the player chain by shooting them as they're played in the soundtrack.

[brentsg]

They need to keep making what fans expect from them, but with even better (from a mainstream POV) production value.

Ideas that might pan out:

Going high res - great!
Going 3D - Great, just outsource the design to Treasure, Vanillaware or some other high caliber game design company
Add achievement codes - How about an arrange soundtrack that is unlocked if you clear the game with TYPE A? "Type" in the code shown at the right screen

Making a timing based music shmup would be really cool - Have popcorn enemies shaped as instruments and let the player chain by shooting them as they're played in the soundtrack.

Wait, none of your ideas involve school girls?

[Icarus]

Wait, none of your ideas involve school girls?

That's an instant fail, right there.
If Cave want to make big money with their next game, they need to hire the artists from Kyoto Animation to make a moeblob cute'em-up. That'll get the punters purchasing.

[Shin]

I knew I wasn't the only one wanting a music oriented Cave shmup, most of their games include such great tunes too!

[emphatic]

Wait, none of your ideas involve school girls?

They need to keep making what fans expect from them

[Erppo]

1) I believe most people who really like shmups, like them because of what they are and don't even want them to evolve too much.

2) It's silly to blame Cave from using similar mechaics over and over, considering they have more variation between their games than pretty mcuh any other major developer I can think of.

[endoKarb]

1) I believe most people who really like shmups, like them because of what they are and don't even want them to evolve too much.

2) It's silly to blame Cave from using similar mechaics over and over, considering they have more variation between their games than pretty mcuh any other major developer I can think of.

Can't help but agree.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For Cave's next proper arcade shmup PCB release (if they ever get around to doing another one), have it output in stereo is where it's at. Sure, it might cost a bit more during the PCB manufacturing runs but well worth it for the end users in the game centers and private arcades/public arcades around the world. The OST and arranged variants music CDs of any future Cave STG release(s) would still sell like hotcakes nevertheless. You'd think with a brand new arcade platform more robust than the aging SH-3 platform that Cave uses, it'd be able to output in stereo with ease making for a more fully and lush audio experience not to be missed. Konami's been going the stereo route with some of their past arcade PCB offerings like Gyruss (circa 1983) and A-Jax from 1987 (and this was back in the early to mid-1980s).

And not to mention with the Taito G-Net platform, it can easily handle a pair of 100w speakers rated at 8 ohms directly from it's 4-pin stereo output interface without breaking a sweat (the on-board MOSFET heatsink doesn't get hot/warm to the touch if handling such a serious speaker setup...I've personally tried it and it's all cool). Some folks might think in going with a 100w speaker setup would be simply overkill but if said arcade mobo can handle it, it's easy as pie.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[trap15]

Considering how atrocious they've let the sound quality become on recent games, I doubt stereo output is even remotely on their list for "Things we want in our new hardware".

[O. Van Bruce]

Considering how atrocious they've let the sound quality become on recent games, I doubt stereo output is even remotely on their list for "Things we want in our new hardware".

Didn't this happened because as they put more stress on the CPU they considered that sound quality was one of the last things in the priority list.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

No that has nothing to do with it. It happened because they apparently don't care about sound quality. It wouldn't matter if there was no stress on the cpu at all. The sound quality is crap because the samples are compressed so much and probably because nobody bothered testing different compression methods. That's what it sounds like anyway. One reason you would end up with less space for them (music tracks for example) thus having to compress them down to destruction is needing room for all the voice samples they used, but the biggest reason is...they didn't even use all their spots for sound roms. There are (have always been) 4 spots and they have always just used 2 of them. They could have doubled the sound quality (bitrate, the hardware supports several levels) by using 2 more cheap roms. The same goes for every game on the hardware.

They don't need new hardware they just need to properly utilize the board they have. Saying they have done everything there is to do with it is crazy too. Look at the new effects they came up with for example in DFK when you go in and out of the ura. Are we seriously saying that is reflective of a maxed out board and there is nothing else to do with it? Because Cave could come up with other effects that would continue to wow us even on low res. There's no need for a newer hardware unless they up the resolution.

[moh]

No that has nothing to do with it. It happened because they apparently don't care about sound quality. It wouldn't matter if there was no stress on the cpu at all. The sound quality is crap because the samples are compressed so much and probably because nobody bothered testing different compression methods. That's what it sounds like anyway. One reason you would end up with less space for them (music tracks for example) thus having to compress them down to destruction is needing room for all the voice samples they used, but the biggest reason is...they didn't even use all their spots for sound roms. There are (have always been) 4 spots and they have always just used 2 of them. They could have doubled the sound quality (bitrate, the hardware supports several levels) by using 2 more cheap roms. The same goes for every game on the hardware.

They don't need new hardware they just need to properly utilize the board they have. Saying they have done everything there is to do with it is crazy too. Look at the new effects they came up with for example in DFK when you go in and out of the ura. Are we seriously saying that is reflective of a maxed out board and there is nothing else to do with it? Because Cave could come up with other effects that would continue to wow us even on low res. There's no need for a newer hardware unless they up the resolution.

I bought my first SH3 board, and sold it the same day. The sound quality was a huge turn off would it have killed them to put a bit more effort? my $30 mr.driller pcb sounds orders of magnitude better than the SH3 garbage.