XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Shining]

Quick comparison shot:

Edit: Oh, nevermind. Wished my 720p scanlines would look that good.

[Konsolkongen]

Ok that's it, I'm getting a mini. Gunna have to grab a new TV too, the 32" Panasonic LCD I'm using is rubbish. I'm thinking a UT30 or a ST50.

I wouldn't go for the ST50. I had one for about a month and most of them suffer from horrible vertical banding and DSE (Dirty screen effect). Further more the scaling from 720p to 1080p is quite bad on the Panasonics (uneven scanlines and a crazy amount of ringing).
The Samsung E6500 has amazing scaling (zero ringing) and pretty great screen uniformity. Brightness pop is a minor issue, but besides that I like it much more than the ST50. Input lag is also just 16ms compared to a lagfree CRT.

http://forums.hdtvtest.co.uk/index.php?topic=7428.15
http://forums.hdtvtest.co.uk/index.php?topic=7100.450
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/samsung- ... 262022.htm

[Thamiel]

That's quite disappointing to hear. My old man has a UT30 which I messed around with for a bit and that thing felt very responsive, the picture looked fantastic as well. I assumed the ST50 would just be a refinement.

EDIT: Just did a little googling, looks like the E6500 wasn't released here in Australia.

[Konsolkongen]

Could be called something else. In Denmark it's called E6505.

If you can get your hands on a ST50 with good screen uniformity then you'll have yourself a great TV. Minus the mediocre scaling of course. Some people don't mind the vertical banding at all, but I couldn't stand it

[kamiboy]

Photos don't really do a LCD/CRT comparison any justice in my opinion.

Fagin, I have a hard time believing that a person owning a BVM would find a mini/LCD combo to be comparable in terms of image quality.

To my eyes there is no competition, CRT wins in every category. The most important category being raw organic image quality. Second highest being the aforementioned fact that CRT just works. Unless you have geometry issues all the tweaking CRT's need is a few seconds twiddling the contrast, colour and brightness knobs to your linking and you are off to playing.

Every time I connected a system to the mini it took at least ten minutes to half an hour of tweaking to get things looking acceptable, and even after all that the end result paled in comparison to PVM which needed no tweaking, being plug and play and all.

I wonder why to me there is such a deep divide between LCD and CRT when most others seem to find little to no difference at all.

It is not like I have a bad LCD, I have a high end unit from 2008, the Sharp XS1.

[pyrotek85]

Photos don't really do a LCD/CRT comparison any justice in my opinion.

Fagin, I have a hard time believing that a person owning a BVM would find a mini/LCD combo to be comparable in terms of image quality.

To my eyes there is no competition, CRT wins in every category. The most important category being raw organic image quality. Second highest being the aforementioned fact that CRT just works. Unless you have geometry issues all the tweaking CRT's need is a few seconds twiddling the contrast, colour and brightness knobs to your linking and you are off to playing.

Every time I connected a system to the mini it took at least ten minutes to half an hour of tweaking to get things looking acceptable, and even after all that the end result paled in comparison to PVM which needed no tweaking, being plug and play and all.

I wonder why to me there is such a deep divide between LCD and CRT when most others seem to find little to no difference at all.

It is not like I have a bad LCD, I have a high end unit from 2008, the Sharp XS1.

I think some people are just more sensitive to subtle differences. I know I don't have an eye for it personally, as most stuff looks perfectly acceptable (worst case) on the Mini to me. Whenever I change systems I only need to make a minor adjustment at most and I'm good to go. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had a good rgb crt to play with, but I don't have the room for one and I like being able to use my computer monitor.

[Fudoh]

Can we please not forget about the fact that it's not about what looks BETTER ?

The Mini (nor any other upscaler) was never meant to make people upgrade from their CRT to a LCD in the same size. The Mini is about connecting your video game systems to your EXISTING workstation LCD or living room TV set. Who, except for a few hardcore fans, would keep around a CRT (or more than one for that matter) in these days ?

Connecting a system through an upscaler like the Mini should be compared to what the picture looks like ON THE SAME LCD without an upscaler, not what to what it would have looked like on a CRT 20 years ago.

I can completely and honestly say that I know MORE people who dislike scanlines than liking them. And to most people size matters just as well. I couldn't convince anyone playing on a 20" CRT when the person in question has a 50" LCD or plasma at home already.

[pyrotek85]

Can we please not forget about the fact that it's not about what looks BETTER ?

The Mini (nor any other upscaler) was ever meant to make people upgrade from their CRT to a LCD in the same size. The Mini is about connecting your video game systems to your EXISTING workstation LCD or living room TV set. Who, except for a few hardcore fans, would keep around a CRT (or more than one for that matter) in these days ?

Connecting a system through an upscaler like the Mini should be compared to what the picture looks like ON THE SAME LCD without an upscaler, not what to what it would have looked like on a CRT 20 years ago.

I can completely and honestly say that I know MORE people who dislike scanlines than liking them. And to most people size matters just as well. I couldn't convince anyone playing on a 20" CRT when the person in question has a 50" LCD or plasma at home already.

Exactly, I didn't even want to play old consoles because they looked like crap on LCDs (even the CRTs too since we don't have RGB in America). I played enough NES and SNES with the RF modulator/compsite as a kid, I couldn't take it anymore lol

[kamiboy]

Come now gentlemen, this is an enthusiast board. We are not interested in discussions from the plebeian perspective of general consumers.

I know only too well how the general populace has no understanding of aesthetic advantages of CRT's, such as scanlines. Hell, I was not even aware of them myself until their loss in LCD era grew in me the appreciation.

[PixelDharma]

Yeah, for me the XRGB Mini isn't about being better than CRTs. It's just a comparable experience. The main point is to repatriate my old consoles to the living room. So much nicer if I actually want to play with friends on a big screen, rather than drag them to my nerd den to huddle around a CRT. And it's just so nice to have all gens of gaming in top quality on one boss home theatre setup.

Photos don't really do a LCD/CRT comparison any justice in my opinion.

Fagin, I have a hard time believing that a person owning a BVM would find a mini/LCD combo to be comparable in terms of image quality.

To my eyes there is no competition, CRT wins in every category. The most important category being raw organic image quality. Second highest being the aforementioned fact that CRT just works. Unless you have geometry issues all the tweaking CRT's need is a few seconds twiddling the contrast, colour and brightness knobs to your linking and you are off to playing.

Every time I connected a system to the mini it took at least ten minutes to half an hour of tweaking to get things looking acceptable, and even after all that the end result paled in comparison to PVM which needed no tweaking, being plug and play and all.

I wonder why to me there is such a deep divide between LCD and CRT when most others seem to find little to no difference at all.

It is not like I have a bad LCD, I have a high end unit from 2008, the Sharp XS1.

I'd be curious to know if the Mini+Plasma would alleviate your concerns? It seems to be the case that plasma does a much better job displaying older graphics. The blacks, colors and response time alone are much more CRT like. I have been a CRT user for years (not RGB input to a PVM, but..), and my Mini+Plasma is quite free of anything that bothers me (and I am a picky old school gamer).

[kamiboy]

Plasma wont help, I had one once. It is still a fixed resolution display and it has none of the quirks inherent to CRT technology that makes me prefer their aesthetics over anything else for vintage gaming.

I got plenty of space, never entertain guests and I don't mind the weight or bulk of a 14-20" CRT, so to me they are the perfect solution. I connect the audio out of my vintage systems to my receiver, so I get killer sound as well.

[PixelDharma]

Plasma wont help, I had one once. It is still a fixed resolution display and it has none of the quirks inherent to CRT technology that makes me prefer their aesthetics over anything else for vintage gaming.

I got plenty of space, never entertain guests and I don't mind the weight or bulk of a 14-20" CRT, so to me they are the perfect solution. I connect the audio out of my vintage systems to my receiver, so I get killer sound as well.

Plasma does the trick for me because the colors glow, and the blacks behind the glass screen almost remind me of the abyss of the CRT. But it's hard for me to argue further since CRTs are amazing! The original, perfect experience.

I'll probably get a P/BVM monitor just for the pure fetish. I agree that there is some "magic" lost on any non-CRT, but the HDified Mini setup has its own perks. I know I'll do more actual gaming reclining on a sofa in a living room too (put both HD and CRT in living room? Thought about it! Too overwhelming IMO).

[MMJuno]

I've been eyeing the 51" E6500 as well recently as a possible replacement for my aging LCD. One thing I've noticed is that the 51" E7000 for the past few weeks has actually been priced lower now for some reason... even though it is a step up from the E6500 feature-wise. Just figured I'd share that for anyone considering the E6500, as you may be able to get more for less if it keeps up this way.

[fagin]

@fagin

I find reducing the sharpness to 0 on the 720p output, just takes the edge off the sharpness above.

the sharpness function is way to aggressive on all resolutions. It's acceptable for 240p sources on 1080p output, but anywhere else I totally dislike it. Try adjusting the H_SCALER setting instead. You get maximum sharpness with 5, but the other settings allow a nice tweaking of the horizontal sharpness.

I didn't appear to notice much difference until the sharpness "fell over the edge of the cliff". Obviously need to delve and play a tad further, tbh though, the results I had achieved I was more than happy with.

[jdubs]

The desire to draw comparisons to the CRT for purposes of proposing the Mini + LCD / plasma as a "replacement" is completely nonsensical. Its about making the LCD / plasma experience as good as it possibly can be. If it can get close to a CRT, awesome!

OBVIOUSLY, if room was unlimited people would (probably) own a CRT for old-school gaming in addition to a nice LCD / plasma for tv and movies.

-Jim

[fagin]

kamiboy,
You need to put this all into perspective. Remember I'm a CRT stalwart. Believe it or not but I purchased ANOTHER THREE CRT's this week alone! One on Monday, one yesterday and another today. I still have tomorrow and Friday to go yet! On the flip side of this, I have nearly as many processors and other video "devices".

This perhaps highlights my point quite nicely though. Many of us are of an egg head niche "cult". Ranging from the basic retro enthusiast, to the retro geek and then finally to the geeky nerd period! Whilst it's hard to admit to I suspect I'm one of the latter.

From a pure perspective of price, effectiveness and easy of use.... a CRT wins hands down in nearly all ways, most of the time. However, as Fudoh was alluding to, some of those points are quite subjective and any one element in another persons eyes can be more important to them than anything else. Here we come to the single target device in nearly everyones home, which would be a HD panel of some description. The fact of the matter is there is simply no right or wrong and all conclusions can be subjectively taken onboard. When you break it down to this level of "reality" you'll probably find that MORE people than not (in to retro gaming) just plug their stuff straight into a HD panel and think it's fine. So many people still use composite and accept that.... I would rather cut my knob off with a rusty butter knife. This of course highlights we all have different levels of "acceptability".

We also have individuals that hold on to something for nostalgia reasons..... If I'm being honest I'm probably guilty of that. Gaming should be about the "game" itself, not what it looks like...... certainly at the level that we're discussing here. We are sort of taking things to the next level of anality (such a word?).

Getting back to the Framemeister (apologies for droning on lol).......

In all honesty I was shocked at not only the amount of things that ARE NOT required to be changed to get a nice image (after reading elements of this thread beforehand, I thought it was going to be a right pig), but also I'm genuinely impressed with how this device performs. My comparison shot was to purely show how good the FM looks (and it looks even better in the flesh) when compared to a BVM. Yes of course the BVM is great..... but the FM is not a million miles apart and for people who don't want a CRT it does a pretty formidable job of re-creating that "look".

Us "lot" are all about delving into the nerdfest that is retro gaming and video imagery associated to it. I'll leave individuals to make their own minds up what suits them the best.

Fudoh,
Any ETA on when you think you'll be re-visiting your FM review and updating it? Would be good if you could give some settings (it could be a framework if nothing else) by console within that review. Stuff within this thread gets lost and a newbie (i.e. ME!) would find something like that very useful.

[Konsolkongen]

I've been eyeing the 51" E6500 as well recently as a possible replacement for my aging LCD. One thing I've noticed is that the 51" E7000 for the past few weeks has actually been priced lower now for some reason... even though it is a step up from the E6500 feature-wise. Just figured I'd share that for anyone considering the E6500, as you may be able to get more for less if it keeps up this way.

Not all of Samsung's Plasmas have the same low latency in PC mode as the E6500. You should do some research on this before you decide to get one.
Also, the 51" models of Samsung's plasmas have poorer blacks than their larger models. I think they use inferior panels on the smaller models.
I have a 51" myself, and the blacks are about the same as my old Panasonic S20. The 50" Panasonic ST50 I had for a month had A LOT deeper blacks though. Never seen anything go as dark as that one did. It was amazing really. On the downside, the ST50 has a lot of dittering in the darkest gray colors. I found that a bit distracting.

[Fudoh]

Any ETA on when you think you'll be re-visiting your FM review and updating it?

I want at least wait for another firmware update.

Would be good if you could give some settings

probably better to put such recommendations into the XRGB wiki.

The only complicated settings on the Mini (and the only ones which have to changed for various sources) are the H_SCALER und V_SCALER settings, possibly along with the SHARPNESS setting. For 240p sources, one setting is good for all systems. Just pay attention to the processing mode. Some like Standard have pretty strong low pass filters in place, which filter away small details. The other is the aspect ratio (pixel ratio versus true 4:3). If you force 4:3 you might have to adjust the SKEW setting to get rid of small judders.

For 480i and 480p it gets really complicated unless you use "trickery" like the SMARTx2 zoom mode.

[fagin]

Thanks for the PM info... I'll read that later.


The Wiki sounds like a logical place for this kind of stuff..... get it populated!!!!

[Shining]

I still got this little problem that bugs me. I own the following systems and these are hooked up with euro scart cables:

US SNES (1CHIP-01)
US Genesis (model 1)
US PSOne (the small one)
PC Engine Duo-RX (with unknown RGB mod)
AV Famicom (RGB mod)

First i got this adapter. It still works flawlessly with my SNES, and Genesis. However, with the Duo-RX and AV Famicom i get sound but no picture. I have tried the different sync level settings on the Mini to no avail.

Then i got this adapter. With this one i get both picture and sound but instead i sometimes get random drop outs on EVERY console. Could it be due to the power supply not feeding it enough power? Maybe a separate power supply for the adapter would do the trick?

It seems like most of you guys don't have these issues

[Fudoh]

I don't get any dropouts, but I also just use passive adapters. Why would you chose adapters with sync processing both times ? This screws up the impendance of the mods.

On the systems you get dropouts, have to tried to raise or lower the SYNC LEVEL setting ?

[Shining]

I don't get any dropouts, but I also just use passive adapters. Why would you chose adapters with sync processing both times ? This screws up the impendance of the mods.

On the systems you get dropouts, have to tried to raise or lower the SYNC LEVEL setting ?

Um.. good question. I guess i just jumped the gun when the newer adapter was announced by retro_console_accessories and thought that it would solve my issue. And it partly did. So maybe i should try this instead?

Yes, i have tried both lowering and raising the sync level setting to no avail. Do you have to restart the Mini after changing the value?

[Fudoh]

Do you have to restart the Mini after changing the value?

no, it's "live".

Yes, get that passive adapter. The RGB Famicom will work flawlessly. It's not been too long since I got my Moosmann FC. We'll have to see about that Duo... Passive adapter + Sync level adjust works great here on my setup.

[Shining]

Thanks again Fudoh, i will get the passive one right away.

[Aatos]

Hey guys again, I'm having massive issues with my new N64 and Mini, hoping very much you could one again be of help..

I bought Wolfsofts RGB modded PAL N64, hooked it up via Keene Scart Commander to my Mini, but the image quality is not what I expected..

I'm not sure if it's supposed to be this light or to be fair if I was expecting too much.. even more noticeable, there's a bad checkerboard effect all over the place - here's an image I took to illustrate: http://i.imgur.com/gl8dDzU.jpg

On top of that, Mini doesn't seem to like this one at all, as the screen keeps tearing up like so:

http://i.imgur.com/NXJPNxV.jpg

I already had the sync level up to 25 after the trouble with that SFC but it doesn't seem to do anything here. I have really no idea where to begin to try to fix these issues so any help is appreciated. I'm also slightly annoyed if this means finetuning the settings heavily, since both the SFC and PS2 that I've now hooked via RGB/Scart commander seem to work fine with the current settings...... Thank you for all the help you can provide in advance!

[fagin]

Converting the composite video to composite sync should help...... it certainly get's rid of the checkerboard effect on the NTSC N64.

[Aatos]

Converting the composite video to composite sync should help...... it certainly get's rid of the checkerboard effect on the NTSC N64.

What would that entail exactly, slicing and re-soldering the RGB cable? There wouldn't happen to just be another device I could purchase (besides a soldering iron) ? My apologies, I'm for now a complete n00b when it comes to the spesifics of how the old video cables work, I did try to read through a thread related to the topic and suggesting the same here, but didn't actually understand too much, yet at least..

[kamiboy]

Converting composite video to composite sync requires a lot more than soldering a few wires. You would need to route composite video through a LM1881 circuit.

If you are not comfortable with doing that, which is understandable, there are pre-made devices you can purchase which do the job for you.

http://www.arcadeforge.de/product_info. ... ucts_id=15

[marqs]

Converting composite video to composite sync requires a lot more than soldering a few wires. You would need to route composite video through a LM1881 circuit.

If you are not comfortable with doing that, which is understandable, there are pre-made devices you can purchase which do the job for you.

http://www.arcadeforge.de/product_info. ... ucts_id=15

I think it'd be better to tap csync from motherboard. If the checkerboard is caused by crosstalk from composite wire, one would need to put the lm1881 circuit at the av-connector end of the cable. On a PAL N64, csync can probably only be tapped from the video encoder chip - luma is another option and it should be available on multi-av-out.

[kamiboy]

Yeah you are right, if you can find a good composite sync source inside the SNES and swap it in for the composite video pin on the video out port then that should work.

Didn't occur to me that the SNES might have such a source somewhere on the inside.