SHMUPs and Co-op: Bests and Worsts

[Shatterhand]

Some of the Konami games get a lot better with co-op because you have instant respawns instead of checkpoints.

Gradius Gaiden has already been mentioned, I had a friend with whom I played it a lot. He sucked at it though It was the only shmup I ever made him play properly.

I used to play a lot of Salamander on MSX with my younger sister. It was one of her favourite games.

[spoot]

How hard is it to get MAME working for online play? I'd always be up for that.

Already exists via http://www.mamehub.info/ application. Although I got pissed at the developer and forked the code before he rewrote the FE in java.

[blackoak]

Cool, I'm looking forward to trying Giga Wing 1&2 out.

Regarding MAME... most of the high level shmup players speak dismissively of dodging--its all about route memorization. I understand that and it makes the input lag on many MAME titles more bearable, since you won't have to be as "reactive" during score runs. But I've found that your standard vert in 2P is almost impossible with lag because weird dodges are often required. It really does make a difference. I can clear Dimahoo on the CPS2 on a cab, but in MAME the input lag destroys my reaction time (which is already being pushed to the limit in that game). With MAME _and_ a laggy LCD, its really sludgy. I can't imagine what netcode lag adds to that...

Also, tried 2P DDP last night. Saturn port, so I think there was far less slowdown than there should have been? Anyway, two players who know the game can definitely devastate it, because boss health depletes twice as fast. But... in Bakraid I got the sense that if an enemy was off-screen, they weren't firing, but with DDP I got the distinct sensation whenever the screen shifted a little to the left that a bullet was already there. Had many sniper-ish deaths that way. Its kind of hard to describe, but try it sometime and you'll see.

[Squire Grooktook]

Regarding MAME... most of the high level shmup players speak dismissively of dodging--its all about route memorization. I understand that and it makes the input lag on many MAME titles more bearable, since you won't have to be as "reactive" during score runs. But I've found that your standard vert in 2P is almost impossible with lag because weird dodges are often required. It really does make a difference. I can clear Dimahoo on the CPS2 on a cab, but in MAME the input lag destroys my reaction time (which is already being pushed to the limit in that game). With MAME _and_ a laggy LCD, its really sludgy. I can't imagine what netcode lag adds to that...

Even if your playing a game that's very high on pattern memorization and safe spotting, and low on rng and improvisation, input delay could still get you killed. Imagine running into a wall when trying to inch up to a safe spot. Not fun.

And of course most games have enough of an unpredictable element that you have to react some times, otherwise it would just be an exercise in muscle memory (see any Mega Man game).

I tried playing Darius Gaiden on netplay with a friend. It was horrible. Input lag sucked all the fun out of the experience. It was like suddenly the game had inertia.

[Sapz]

My best multiplayer experience with a shmup was in ESPGaluda II. Lots of fun every time, really interesting take on a versus mode.

What's a co-op?

[Arvandor]

Ikaruga has provided the most amusement for me co-op, both seriously playing (trying to split up who gets what chains,) and goofy as well (trying to ram each other into walls, killing each other with suicide bullets by switching at a bad time, and especially doing any of those on accident.)

Gradius V wasn't too bad, we played a bit of that multiplayer. The GigaWings are pretty fun, as well as any simplistic game like a Psikyo title. Jamestown is really good also.

Cave games are terrible for mutliplayer. Some of the Mushimodes aren't terrible, but even then it's pretty eh.

[powersoul]

Somewhere on the forum, I did write about a coop game for Deathsmiles. Screen position movement trolling has been mentioned, but I do note a reduced rate of fire for the options, almost down by half. As for fever mode for both players, its doable as long as one of the players can coordinate.

Yeah, its really a lot of bomb spamming, trolling and general laughter when you play with someone else.

Someone mentioned 4 player mode on a shmup? I can't wait to check out a replay on that.

[Jeneki]

Someone mentioned 4 player mode on a shmup? I can't wait to check out a replay on that.

We need a quad-ship superplay using both hands and feet.

[Softdrink 117]

My best experience with coop was in Muchi Muchi Pork, of all things. One of my friends isn't really that into shmups, but for some reason he has a lot of fun with that game, so we do coop runs occasionally. Screen shake makes it hilariously hard, as in all CAVE games, but we never take it seriously, and will often take turns dragging each other into boss patterns for the lulz. We also enjoy yelling at each other for stealing lard: "DAMMIT, THAT WAS MY LARD! GIVE IT BACK!

Worst has to be online play in Ikaruga. It was actually really fun because of how stupid it was, but when connection lag made me die to literally the first set of enemies in the game, I knew things could go nowhere but downhill. My partner and I took turns trolling each other with suicide bullets. Good times.

[BuckoA51]

My non-gaming friend and I have played hours of Warblade in co-op, I find it a very fun and relaxing gallery shooter, though I know many of you are rolling your eyes. Does Hard Corps count as a shooter ? The GF and I played that in coop recently and enjoyed it immensely, despite us both rather sucking at it.

I agree about Raiden 2 as well, my flatmate and I at uni used to go down the union bar and play that co-op quite often.

[EmperorIng]

Nothing beats a good bout of Darius Gaiden in co-op in front of a big-ol' TV.

Giga Wing 2's co-op also gets points for being extremely fun.

[ProcoTaito]

Getting a couple Genesis Silverhawks together in G-Darius is BADASS!!

[Master O]

Some of the Konami games get a lot better with co-op because you have instant respawns instead of checkpoints.

Gradius Gaiden has already been mentioned, I had a friend with whom I played it a lot. He sucked at it though It was the only shmup I ever made him play properly.

I used to play a lot of Salamander on MSX with my younger sister. It was one of her favourite games.

What about Trigon/Lightning Fighters in co-op?

[Zenzizenzic]

Good read this thread

Was wondering, in your co-op experiences is it also about friendly competition, such as pokingly nicking pickups away from the other player or having separate score meters for each player (which in the end get added up to each other, but still allow for a bit of competing), or just purely about getting through the level while supporting each other with stuff like weapon sets which complement each other? How'd you feel that balance would work out best?

[Monstermug]

Daisenpu is one of the best two player games I have played. Really fun to 1cc with a mate.

[Kiken]

Good read this thread

Was wondering, in your co-op experiences is it also about friendly competition, such as pokingly nicking pickups away from the other player or having separate score meters for each player (which in the end get added up to each other, but still allow for a bit of competing), or just purely about getting through the level while supporting each other with stuff like weapon sets which complement each other? How'd you feel that balance would work out best?

If we're talking about cooperative play, I've always been a proponent of high-level teamwork.

[Ghegs]

Good read this thread

Was wondering, in your co-op experiences is it also about friendly competition, such as pokingly nicking pickups away from the other player or having separate score meters for each player (which in the end get added up to each other, but still allow for a bit of competing), or just purely about getting through the level while supporting each other with stuff like weapon sets which complement each other? How'd you feel that balance would work out best?

If we're talking about cooperative play, I've always been a proponent of high-level teamwork.

I must've said this a dozen times over the years, but I really want to do an R-Type Dimensions co-op no-miss play one day. Such a shame about the lag the connecting player will have to suffer from.

[Zerst]

Radiant Silvergun is actually a ton of fun to play co-op straight up. Your ships are both weaker, and you have to heavily coordinate who kills what, who gets the merry dogs, etc. It also forces you to plan out the derivative chains.

Though this was already mentioned a bunch, a couple years back I ran Ikaruga Deathmatch as part of a tournament I was organizing for a convention. Used the Gamecube's practice modes to set up stages 2/3/4 on Hard as a best 2 of 3.

[n0rtygames]

Bit of shamless self pimpage here, but I actually put a bit of work in to Co-op while writing Chronoblast. Basically, you can rescue each other if the other guy dies (though this will effect eligibility for TLB conditions) and your scores are combined at the end if you're doing a score attack run.

You mentioned Cave games sucking for co-op and yeah, they generally do. Aimed more towards the solo scoring experience I guess.


Jamestown is good fun though! Give that a whirl with a friend

Only downer for me with that game is the last time I played it, they hadn't separated their scoreboards in to solo/coop/team

[Zaarock]

Radiant Silvergun is actually a ton of fun to play co-op straight up. Your ships are both weaker, and you have to heavily coordinate who kills what, who gets the merry dogs, etc. It also forces you to plan out the derivative chains.

Too bad the XBLA port has some of the worst netcode I've ever seen does sound fun.

Strania is a lot of fun in coop imo because of the weapon variety etc. and has really good netcode if you want to play online, vower desyncs if connections are slow though. Gotta try for a co-op clear in side vower expert some day.

[Zenzizenzic]

How does Jamestown actually scale the difficulty up with multiple players? Only had to chance to play it with 2 players at the same time, and it's difficult to say if it was much harder to take down enemies, or if there were more bullets etc.

[Squire Grooktook]

Good read this thread

Was wondering, in your co-op experiences is it also about friendly competition, such as pokingly nicking pickups away from the other player or having separate score meters for each player (which in the end get added up to each other, but still allow for a bit of competing), or just purely about getting through the level while supporting each other with stuff like weapon sets which complement each other? How'd you feel that balance would work out best?

Definitely team work. I love the idea of players working together and having each others back, maybe even taking bullets for each other when worst comes to worst.

[Zenzizenzic]

Definitely team work. I love the idea of players working together and having each others back, maybe even taking bullets for each other when worst comes to worst.

If we're talking about cooperative play, I've always been a proponent of high-level teamwork.

Seems like co-op play is valued more compared than "same-screen-competitive" on a first glance :) I'm currently messing about with implementing a mechanic which allows for slowing down time and jumping to a target position and letting loose a shockwave which destroys bullets on arrival at that targeted position. It might play into that supportive gameplay aspect, as you'll be able to use it to save your buddy from a tight spot.

[blackoak]

Recently been playing Brave Blade with my co-pilot friend. Its pretty fun with two players, and it doesn't seem to have the screen shifting problem most verts have in 2P. Good music in that game too.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm curious, are there any really high level super plays out there? One's where it's obvious that not only are both players skilled, but they practiced together to make sure they could make the most out of the co-op.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I wonder how many people are genuinely interested in online cooperation. Was ANY online game where cooperation is necessary to meet goals truly popular? Counter Strike maybe? (I wouldn't know how co-op it really is.) Even in MMORPGs and Diablo-likes, that favour co-op by design, many folks would rather buy advantage with real money than seek companions.

Surely if online co-op was commonly desired, more games of arcade origins would be brought to the masses this way. Gauntlet: Seven Sorrows (ill-fated for many reasons) is the only such attempt that comes to my mind right now.
Instead, 1vs1 fighters - particulary poor fit for net gaming - all seem to be online these days.

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

I'm curious, are there any really high level super plays out there? One's where it's obvious that not only are both players skilled, but they practiced together to make sure they could make the most out of the co-op.

Right here. You mean you weren't already subscribed to ReplayBurners?

[Aquas]

I played Mushi Futari Original co-op with one of my non-shmupper buddies. He said he got a headache from playing it. The explosions were too crazy.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm curious, are there any really high level super plays out there? One's where it's obvious that not only are both players skilled, but they practiced together to make sure they could make the most out of the co-op.

Right here. You mean you weren't already subscribed to ReplayBurners?

Many thanks.

[blackoak]

Been playing a lot of Jamestown with my friends. We can get to the last form of the final boss on Judgement, but haven't beaten him yet. I would never have thought that "team memo" would be fun, but it really is. And strategizing with everyone between runs, trying new ship combos... its fascinating. The joy of good teamwork when everyone's got the level down is totally unique among shmups imo. We actually found a good use for the Bomber ship, which devastated some of the later bosses. Hasn't worked so well on the last boss so far... we've been trying Gunpowder instead. The regenerating health on the final boss, and the fact it feels like patterns only become "denser" on the real hard difficulties (use that screen space! homing bullets and raizing could teach a thing here) are my only complaints.

By the way, has anyone read this? http://www.co-optimus.com/editorial/976 ... ether.html
A really good essay on co-op shmups, perfect for this thread. These guys deserved a lot more praise than they got, but I understand why it wasn't forthcoming when you look at Steam and see that only 2.5% of players have even cleared a single stage with four players.

We're talking Gauntlet runs when we beat this, and if that ever becomes a reality I'll have to find a way to capture the stream for a possible STGW!