This is FANTASTIC! Except for the small fact that I don't have an HDMI port associated with any kind of analog audio, not having that is kind of a deal breaker, also seeing as it's 480p I'm thinking my (future) XRGB - mini would handle this better than going straight to the TV.
brokenhalo wrote:the pictures they posted up look really nice. only thing i'm not thrilled about is that the audio doesn't run through the hdmi cable, so you would need a separate device to combine the audio and video line into one hdmi cable. somebody on NA posted this little guy, but it's kind of pricy for what it is. is there an easier way to accomplish this?
Someone find a cheaper version of this, I'd love to have it.
One HDMI port on the back should be labeled DVI, right next to the RS232 port. This one is associated with the 3.5mm audio port above the VGA port. It even says "AUDIO IN (RGB/DVI).
Fudoh wrote:One HDMI port on the back should be labeled DVI, right next to the RS232 port. This one is associated with the 3.5mm audio port above the VGA port. It even says "AUDIO IN (RGB/DVI).
I was three minutes too late
Both my TVs have HDMI ports with analog audio ports associated with them too. If this is a problem it's a very small one.
Fudoh wrote:One HDMI port on the back should be labeled DVI, right next to the RS232 port. This one is associated with the 3.5mm audio port above the VGA port. It even says "AUDIO IN (RGB/DVI).
That's odd, it always seemed to be there to go with the VGA in.
Still an issue for anyone who uses switches, my TV only has 2 HDMI in, I use a switch I don't see why anyone wouldn't want the HDMI port to output audio.
RGB32E wrote:Sounds like this bypasses the existing PPU all together.
From what he says later in the thread, it seems that it's still relying on the PPU to generate the basic timings and bus cycles, but then snoops all the register reads/writes and pixel data to generate its own picture.
NWrain wrote:I want separate analog audio out because all my audio equipment is Tube analog.
Is there any reason it can't just be an option?
Yeah because their solution is graphics specific and as has been mentioned actually generates the graphics data itself digitally. If they were to include audio in the HDMI output then they would need to do Analoug to Digital conversion for the sound which would require extra hardware and complicate matters.
Not to mention unlike their all digital HDMI solution any audio solution could have detrimental effects on sound quality if the analoug to digital conversion is not done right.
NWrain wrote:I want separate analog audio out because all my audio equipment is Tube analog.
Is there any reason it can't just be an option?
Yeah because their solution is graphics specific and as has been mentioned actually generates the graphics data itself digitally. If they were to include audio in the HDMI output then they would need to do Analoug to Digital conversion for the sound which would require extra hardware and complicate matters.
Not to mention unlike their all digital HDMI solution any audio solution could have detrimental effects on sound quality if the analoug to digital conversion is not done right.
Well... that sucks. I'd definitely pay more for the simple convenience of only having one cable if that's what you're getting at.
Some people want an all digital solution via HDMI and some, like me, want an all analoug solution for video and audio.
We cant always get things just the way that we want them.
Also from the sounds of it this solution is designed for the top loader and from the get go the master minds are only going to be selling toploaders with modification pre-installed.
It is certainly great news that some savant out there has finally provided a RGB quality video solution in reach of everyone, but the road ahead is long still.
kamiboy wrote:Some people want an all digital solution via HDMI and some, like me, want an all analoug solution for video and audio.
We cant always get things just the way that we want them.
Also from the sounds of it this solution is designed for the top loader and from the get go the master minds are only going to be selling toploaders with modification pre-installed.
It is certainly great news that some savant out there has finally provided a RGB quality video solution in reach of everyone, but the road ahead is long still.
I know but I've been dying for an easy/cheap(er) solution for the NES and this one audio thing is the only thing in my way, there's just gotta be a way if not for them then for me to put the audio into the HDMI cable.
LPCM audio has to be muxed into the HDMI video signal. That's why the adapters aren't cheap. With your current TV (as said above), you certainly don't have to worry about audio.
Fudoh wrote:LPCM audio has to be muxed into the HDMI video signal. That's why the adapters aren't cheap. With your current TV (as said above), you certainly don't have to worry about audio.
And as said below that by me, I only have 2 ports and as a result am using a switch (not to mention the whole streaming/capture setup that was specifically engineered for things that carry both video and audio AKA everything I have ever seen except this). I guess I'm just waiting this one out a little bit longer.
still don't see the problem. I would check how the TV decides wether to use HDMI audio or analogue audio. If it only uses the 3.5mm port when there's an active signal present on the input, then a switch won't cause any trouble. The only trouble you have is to get a cable from the NES to that audio port.
And if it's HDMI audio you need, then just buy the proper converters. You should be able to pick up a DVI+Audio to HDMI integrator for about $40-45 at monoprice. Add a A/D (stereo to SPDIF) converter for about $20 and you're set. Doesn't cost the world....
Fudoh wrote:still don't see the problem. I would check how the TV decides wether to use HDMI audio or analogue audio. If it only uses the 3.5mm port when there's an active signal present on the input, then a switch won't cause any trouble. The only trouble you have is to get a cable from the NES to that audio port.
And if it's HDMI audio you need, then just buy the proper converters. You should be able to pick up a DVI+Audio to HDMI integrator for about $40-45 at monoprice. Add a A/D (stereo to SPDIF) converter for about $20 and you're set. Doesn't cost the world....
So many.. extra boxes. Do you know what my room looks like right now?
On a less joking note, excellent point about the audio in port, fine. I can see now that it would work to play, it's really not good for my capture setup UNLESS I can add this to a Framemeister. Although it seems like the audio in would be taken up by the component to D-terminal stuff. How annoying, unless I add another box to all this... (which may or may not cause input lag).
My sentiments exactly. I often find that adding just another box to my setup might be the sought after remedy but it is never the most elegant way of going about the affair. I hate the clutter of too many wires and whatnot crowding the space around my TV.
It seems the further I venture in this hobby the more odd obsolete equipment I have to amass. Some times I wish I could be satisfied with emulation as that would rid me of several hundred kilos of games and gaming related hardware and software.
Alas, nothing can compare with playing the genuine article on a quality CRT, and here we are.
So I'd need 2 additional boxes that could very well lag? Just to fit this in with the rest of my devices? Maybe with this people will find one widely accepted converter that'll put the audio with the video. I can't be the only one who's thinking this way.
Those boxes wont lag, so no worries there. Your only other option is to get yourself an AV receiver like mine that allows you to mix and match many digital and analoug audio/video signals to your liking. Configuring my Denon is an involved process but what it lacks in finesse it makes up for in flexibility.
The added benefit is of course that with some quality speakers you then get quality sound to go with your quality video.
kamiboy wrote:Those boxes wont lag, so no worries there. Your only other option is to get yourself an AV receiver like mine that allows you to mix and match many digital and analoug audio/video signals to your liking. Configuring my Denon is an involved process but what it lacks in finesse it makes up for in flexibility.
The added benefit is of course that with some quality speakers you then get quality sound to go with your quality video.
I'm sorry but if I'm gonna spend serious money on this stuff I'm gonna need some hardcore numbers tests, it's the only reason I even considered going for a framemeister.
Smashbro29 wrote:So I'd need 2 additional boxes that could very well lag? Just to fit this in with the rest of my devices? Maybe with this people will find one widely accepted converter that'll put the audio with the video. I can't be the only one who's thinking this way.
OH NO SMASHBRO HAS INFILTRATED SHMUPS, TOO!! Just kidding
As has likely been discussed to death, DVI-D is HDMI without audio, so the video data is already in the proper scale/format/etc.. The integrator Fudoh mentioned simply sticks digital audio data into the information being transferred. This is not upscaling or changing the video data. You need the audio A/D to get audio into a digital format and then send that to the other box to combine into the HDMI data.
So, Fudoh, any updates on the whole HDMI to 15khz RGB situation?
A shame the XRGB mini does support analogue output, eh?
Then a potential firmware update could have enabled it to do the reverse of its intended purpose by turning the 480p HDMI output of the NES into a 15khz analogue signal.
Bit of an oversight on Micomsoft to not put that functionality in there, but I guess it would have driven up cost and R&D too much for something hardly anyone would have used. Still, for something costing us
40.000¥ they should have thrown it in.
After reading through the NA thread it seems that this kit, whenever it is ready for sale, only works for the top loader. And to facilitate the ports you will need to cut a piece out of your unit's side.
I am not too thrilled about that, but to make an omlette, as the saying goes.
Better hit up Yahoo.jp for a Japanese top loader I guess.
So, Fudoh, any updates on the whole HDMI to 15khz RGB situation?
I did not hear back from bunnyboy on Nintendoage, but Aaron might be looking into this after he's finished his CGA2VGA converter.
Bit of an oversight on Micomsoft to not put that functionality in there
that would be a tiny target audience. They added 15khz output to the XRGB-3 and I honestly can't imagine that more than a handful or people ever used that.
After reading through the NA thread it seems that this kit, whenever it is ready for sale, only works for the top loader.
no, I don't think so. It might be intended for the top loader, but if you add some remote cables, there's absolutely no reason why this shouldn't work in a front loader just as well.
Bunnyboy is prolly overwhelmed with a diluge of PM's and other inquiries right now, so no wonder.
You are right that if you use wires the kit should be doable on any version of the NES hardware, since they all use the same graphics hardware, but it seems the adapter takes up a lot of space and its form factor, for the time being, is designed around the top loader, so sticking it into anything else might be a bit inelegant if nothng else.
On the other hand, if you solder off that useless RF box on a toaster then you should free up a good candidate spot for fitting the whole thing.
Thing is, from the sounds of it, bunnyboy seems to be hesitant to sell just the HDMI encoder by itself. Maybe he can be convinced otherwise though.
According to BunnyBoy/RetroUSB, in one of his last posts, "This board uses the digital buses, not the video outputs" .. If I read this correctly, this board is a PPU replacement with HDMI digital output. Which makes sense, as all Nintendo PPU's only have analog output. This also explains why it's video only. The PPU doesn't generate any audio, only video. To merge the video/audio together would require a lot of extra circuitry, which will significantly increase the cost of the HDMI NES with minimal benefits.
The guy is a wiz at NES era mods, I'm sure he learned a lot in doing the RetroPak, which is an NES mapper emulator as well as USB CopyNES (which sits between the CPU & bus and intercepts reads/writes) Now he's probably emulating the PPU on an FPGA. In fact, I recall seeing something on KLOV not that long ago where a person was working on an RGB NES PPU all made on an FPGA (hence no need to sacrifice a PC10). The extra mini-USB port is then required for this device in order to correct / update the FPGA as bugs are found with different games. I'm sure eventually an option might be added to switch the palette from the NES on the PC10 RGB one.
Smashbro29 wrote:So I'd need 2 additional boxes that could very well lag? Just to fit this in with the rest of my devices? Maybe with this people will find one widely accepted converter that'll put the audio with the video. I can't be the only one who's thinking this way.
OH NO SMASHBRO HAS INFILTRATED SHMUPS, TOO!! Just kidding
As has likely been discussed to death, DVI-D is HDMI without audio, so the video data is already in the proper scale/format/etc.. The integrator Fudoh mentioned simply sticks digital audio data into the information being transferred. This is not upscaling or changing the video data. You need the audio A/D to get audio into a digital format and then send that to the other box to combine into the HDMI data.
NOW STOP ASKING QUESTIONS!! Just kidding
-ud
I'm EVERYWHERE. Fighting for truth, justice and insanely complex video hookups.
I will never stop asking questions! It's how I learn stuff!
leonk wrote:According to BunnyBoy/RetroUSB, in one of his last posts, "This board uses the digital buses, not the video outputs" .. If I read this correctly, this board is a PPU replacement with HDMI digital output. Which makes sense, as all Nintendo PPU's only have analog output. This also explains why it's video only. The PPU doesn't generate any audio, only video. To merge the video/audio together would require a lot of extra circuitry, which will significantly increase the cost of the HDMI NES with minimal benefits.
The guy is a wiz at NES era mods, I'm sure he learned a lot in doing the RetroPak, which is an NES mapper emulator as well as USB CopyNES (which sits between the CPU & bus and intercepts reads/writes) Now he's probably emulating the PPU on an FPGA. In fact, I recall seeing something on KLOV not that long ago where a person was working on an RGB NES PPU all made on an FPGA (hence no need to sacrifice a PC10). The extra mini-USB port is then required for this device in order to correct / update the FPGA as bugs are found with different games. I'm sure eventually an option might be added to switch the palette from the NES on the PC10 RGB one.
So here's my question (hooray questions) How can we best add the audio into the HDMI signal with no lag whatsoever and will it take up yet another outlet?
Actually never mind my soldering off the RF box remark. I had forgotten that box also houses the power adapter input. I guess we'll just have wait and see how big the final FPGA board is and take it from there.
Also, the guy above, your question has already been answered, why not do some personal research and get to know the subjects at hand a little better before asking the same questions over and over again?
kamiboy wrote:Actually never mind my soldering off the RF box remark. I had forgotten that box also houses the power adapter input. I guess we'll just have wait and see how big the final FPGA board is and take it from there.
Also, the guy above, your question has already been answered, why not do some personal research and get to know the subjects at hand a little better before asking the same questions over and over again?
Ok, here's the thing. I get the concepts behind them but I also understand that things need testing, in order to get the things to test I'd need to spend crazy amounts of money OR I could just ask on a forum where people generally use this stuff and ask if anyone's done the tests already.
If I had the money, I'd go balls crazy and just buy everything and test it until something stuck but I forgot to water my money tree.
