HDMI NES could be a reality?

[BuckoA51]

This is all over the other retro sites but, just in case you missed it:-

http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messag ... adid=92557

Apparently scanline support is planned too, fingers crossed!

[Fudoh]

Very nice news, especially the fact that it connects to the standard NTSC PPU and does not require a RGB upgrade.

[Shining]

Oh, how nice. Just wished i could have heard of this before purchasing an RGB PPU. God damnit, should i wait in doing the RGB mod now? This is great news but so frustrating!

[kamiboy]

Wish someone would put that know how towards building a custom RGB PPU for analoug output with correct colours and obviously easy to obtain.

[Fudoh]

Wish someone would put that know how towards building a custom RGB PPU for analoug output with correct colours and obviously easy to obtain.

an internal HDMI 480p to RGBs 240p option would be nice (and very much doable).

God damnit, should i wait in doing the RGB mod now? This is great news but so frustrating!

the HDMI option is great, but not for everyone. Depends on which display you want to use, which upscalers you might want to use and a bunch of other aspects.

[kamiboy]

Wouldn't an internal 480p to 240p not add unnecessary lag and take up a lot of space?

I guess there is a bit of space inside the NES for stuffing the components but a direct PPU to RGBs solution would certainly be more elegant.

I wonder what the upstart cost of developing such a thing with a Chinese subcontractor would be.

Unfortunately the market for such a thing would be a fraction of what it is for the HDMI mod, which itself is pretty meager.

[Fudoh]

Wouldn't an internal 480p to 240p not add unnecessary lag and take up a lot of space?

no, both the D/A conversion and the scan conversion (just deleting every 2nd line) can be done completely lag free. If you think of full external devices, think of a HDFury along with an Ultracade UVC. Combine both onto a single PCB and it can easily be done on a PCB the size of the SLG3000.

I guess there is a bit of space inside the NES for stuffing the components but a direct PPU to RGBs solution would certainly be more elegant.

certainly, but his approach makes sense. This way he can create a flawless digital signal from the stock PPU.

I wonder what the upstart cost of developing such a thing with a Chinese subcontractor would be.

I would be surprised if if the final costs would be higher than $75 ea. with a 200 piece order.

Unfortunately the market for such a thing would be a fraction of what it is for the HDMI mod, which itself is pretty meager.

I don't really think so. HDMI leaves out all the CRT users and 480p via HDMI still relies a lot on possible software scanlines and the display in use, while analogue 240p from a digital source would look 100% perfect.

Aaron over at arcadecontrols.com is working on his CGA to VGA converter board right now. With the sheer unavailability of Emotia or UVC units at the moment, maybe he can look into creating the opposite (VGA to CGA) at an affordable price as well. (EDIT: just emailed Aaron with the idea. Let's see what the thinks).

[BuckoA51]

I wonder what bunnyboy over on the nintendoage forum would make of these ideas too.

[kamiboy]

I don't really think so. HDMI leaves out all the CRT users and 480p via HDMI still relies a lot on possible software scanlines and the display in use, while analogue 240p from a digital source would look 100% perfect.

240p RGBs output from a NES would look fantastic on a CRT but if you consider modern NES owners I think only a fraction have or are willing to bother with CRT's as opposed to those who are simply looking for a way to play their NES on their LCD TV without it looking horrendous.

In any case I am in the analoug 15khz minority. If an affordable (say under $150 total) and easy to obtain 240p RGB solution become available for the NES then I have the funds ready to go.

[Fudoh]

I wonder what bunnyboy over on the nintendoage forum would make of these ideas too

I'll approach him, but the whole D/A and scan conversion process has hardly anything to do with what he does right now. Maybe he could add an internal pin header where a D/A board could be attached to.

EDIT: just emailed him...

[RGB32E]

Looks really cool! Sounds like this bypasses the existing PPU all together. From the screen shot posted, it looks like there's sharpening/ringing artifacts, but I imagine this is due to the TVs handling of 480p HDMI and not the source signal itself. It would be nice if it could scale to 1080p, or at least output 240p to feed to the XRGB-mini. The default 480p might be fine with the XRGB-mini as well?

[kamiboy]

Looks really cool! Sounds like this bypasses the existing PPU all together. From the screen shot posted, it looks like there's sharpening/ringing artifacts, but I imagine this is due to the TVs handling of 480p HDMI and not the source signal itself. It would be nice if it could scale to 1080p, or at least output 240p to feed to the XRGB-mini. The default 480p might be fine with the XRGB-mini as well?

Upscaling the signal is a bad idea as just about anything you hook 480p up to can be expected to do a better job of upscaling the signal. Especially if you are hooking it directly to your TV.

The XRGB mini should perform well with 480p, but if the device is capable of scanline emulation then using the mini makes a whole lot less sense all of a sudden.

Lastly 240p output is impossible via HDMI, you would need to go analoug for that.

[RGB32E]

Upscaling the signal is a bad idea as just about anything you hook 480p up to can be expected to do a better job of upscaling the signal. Especially if you are hooking it directly to your TV.

The XRGB mini should perform well with 480p, but if the device is capable of scanline emulation then using the mini makes a whole lot less sense all of a sudden.

Lastly 240p output is impossible via HDMI, you would need to go analoug for that.

All three points you make miss the mark. If you saw the pictures on the NA thread you'd see a common example of where TVs generally do a horrible job of scaling 480p from a HDMI source. Scanlines or not, the XRGB-mini would do a better job of scaling to 1080p than a given TV. 240p via HDMI is possible (as confirmed by Fudoh). While TVs don't accept 240p via HDMI, the XRGB-mini does. Some component to HDMI converter boxes will output a 240p HDMI signal when the input is 240p.

[kamiboy]

What TV these days does a bad job of upscaling 480p? I have a hard time believing that is a common issue, even with lowend models these days. I have a 2008 LCD and I cannot see any discernible difference between 480p directly fed to my TV or through the XRGB mini.

That is interesting about mini being able to accept 240p via HDMI. I didn't even think HDMI could carry such a signal.

[NWrain]

HDMI video is great, but will there be an analog audio breakout?

[BuckoA51]

What TV these days does a bad job of upscaling 480p?

It really depends what you mean by "bad job" I think, there are sets that do a bad job but the Panasonic's and Sony's of the world do just fine with 480p in my experience. However, remember that most 480p upscaling in TV's is heavily optimised for video and not graphics, meaning there's often a softening of the picture compared with the crisp scaling you might want for old videogames. You can always add a little more sharpness with the TV's controls but that often just makes things look horrible.

HDMI video is great, but will there be an analog breakout?

If you read the thread that's what we've been discussing

[kamiboy]

I would add Samsung and LG sets to the list of TV's that should do a pretty serviceable job of upscaling 480p which with the aforementioned SONY and Panasonic covers the bulk of brands you can be expected to see in shops.

As far as film optimized upscaling goes, well, that is why all TV's come with different picture modes, and most have a Game mode that gives you better sharpness and less lag.

I really feel most LCD TV's have reached the same acceptable minimum baseline as far as these things are concerned for at least half a decade now.

Manufacturers have long since shifted to competing on bezel styling and MSRP instead of features and function.

[NWrain]

When a 480P signal is input in a modern TV, does it really upscale the signal, or does it just interpolate the image? Are those the same thing?

[Shining]

God damnit, should i wait in doing the RGB mod now? This is great news but so frustrating!

the HDMI option is great, but not for everyone. Depends on which display you want to use, which upscalers you might want to use and a bunch of other aspects.

I would be using it with the XRGB-Mini and a modern LCD, and it would mean a lot to me just to get the colors right. Oh, and surely the AV Famicom will be supported in the future? My console and RGB PPU has already been sent to Moosmann but i'm having second thoughts now..

[kamiboy]

Interpolation is a term for approximating a point between two known data points.

I believe most upscalers actually touch the entire image, even the original data points, so technically they are not the same thing.

[ZellSF]

Sorry I'm confused, will this make HDMI NES consoles easily available and at reasonable price points?

Also is it 480p only (and is the XRGB-mini capable of scaling HDMI 480p to 1080p?).

[kamiboy]

That is the idea and yes to both accounts.

[brokenhalo]

the pictures they posted up look really nice. only thing i'm not thrilled about is that the audio doesn't run through the hdmi cable, so you would need a separate device to combine the audio and video line into one hdmi cable. somebody on NA posted this little guy, but it's kind of pricy for what it is. is there an easier way to accomplish this?

[antron]

don't most TVs have at least one HDMI port that is paired with a stereo input?

[ZellSF]

Wouldn't converting it to HDMI mean having to do analog to digital conversion first (to hdmi) and then eventually convert it back to analog?

Sounds like that could potentially involve some quality loss.

[antron]

No, they say it's all digital to the HDMI. So in a way I guess they made their own modern PPU?

Hell. Fucking. Yes.

[ZellSF]

No, they say it's all digital to the HDMI. So in a way I guess they made their own modern PPU?

Hell. Fucking. Yes.

If that was a reply to me, I was talking about audio.

[antron]

^ Ahh...

Good point.

[undamned]

don't most TVs have at least one HDMI port that is paired with a stereo input?

Yep. I didn't realize this until Fudoh pointed it out to me (shocker)
-ud

[Ed Oscuro]

Wish someone would put that know how towards building a custom RGB PPU for analoug output with correct colours and obviously easy to obtain.

Agreed except that for most games HDMI should be more future-proof.

Shame about the lack of zapper support on non-CRTs (but that was always going to be the case). You're stuck with CRTs one way or another.

I'm probably not interested in this end product in that there are some unknowns - getting audio into HDMI without using an expensive device, and upscaler questions (if I remember right, Fudoh has said that HDMI doesn't carry 240p so wouldn't it have some kind of scaler inside already?).