Can't get into Bullet Hell... Advice.

[k39bk]

Ok, this is my first post in this amazing site/forum. English isn't my native language so pardon my unwanted mistakes.

So, I used to be (& still am I think) a huge fan of shoot em ups. Games like Gradius, Parodius, R-Type & it's clones, Thunderforce, HyperDuel, Aleste, Blazing Lazers etc. & companies like Irem, Compile, Technosoft used to be my favourite & they still are. I could 1cc (also 2cc, 3cc ) most of them in my local arcade.

Wii VC again refreshed my shmup love. I was downloading & playing PC engine shmups like mad but bullet hell never attracted me. I tend to avoid them but all of my shmup addicted friends seem to like bullet hells. For last few months I am really trying to extract some fun from Danmaku but in vain. I have borrowed Deathsmiles, E.S.P Galuda, Futari 1.5, Ibara from friends & also playing Dodonpachi, DOJ, Gunbird 2, Strikers etc on MAME. It seems small illusive hitbox, hollow level design, cute looking-slow moving random bullets & chaining system turning me off. I always have to concentrate on my ship/lolis & its invisible hitbox, no time to even appritiate enenmy design!! But I somewhat liked some of Psikyo's offerings - GunBird 2 & Sengoku Blade but I absolutely couldn't get into CAVE or Tohu stuff.

So I was wondering & somewhat confused as an old school shmups fan is there anything I am missing or overlooking, like any concept or perspective which will help me appritiate bullet hell genre. (Or is it normal not to like them although being a shmups fan?)

[Ghegs]

You don't have to like every single shmup (or a subgenre of shmups) to be a shmup fan. I don't care much for bullet hell games myself, I'll take the Gradiuses and R-Types over them any day of the week.

Rather than the setpieces and enemy designs, the appeal of bullet hell is largely the intricate scoring systems. Have you tried playing something like Dodonpachi for score?

[Raytrace]

I'm probably going to get lambasted for this. but if you have a decent enough 'smart'phone, I would recommend playing some of the Cave shmups on them first, DDP Maximum is IMO great fun, and while I never couldn't get into bullet hells 'at all', I still didn't really play them for any great length of time. The phones and playing with touch, makes it easier for you top appreciate the systems and patterns that are used in a more relaxed manner, as it's a lot easier to play with your finger than a stick (but obviously shitter ). I found that when I go back an play DDP with my stick now, I enjoy it way more, as I don't simple freak out the second I see a massive pattern, as some of them I know and you kinda realise that a lot of patterns will eventually have some sort of gap in them. So instead of freaking out the second they appear, try to imagine what they will be, and then possibly freak out haha.

[k39bk]

You don't have to like every single shmup (or a subgenre of shmups) to be a shmup fan. I don't care much for bullet hell games myself, I'll take the Gradiuses and R-Types over them any day of the week.

Rather than the setpieces and enemy designs, the appeal of bullet hell is largely the intricate scoring systems. Have you tried playing something like Dodonpachi for score?

I am still in survival stage let alone scoring. I can get to stage 4 boss with 1c but if I wan't to see stage 5 I have to feed it another credit or two. I try to chain & collect all the bees though..

[Squire Grooktook]

Hey man, I feel you. While I appreciated the better bullet hell shooters, I could never really call myself a fan of them compared to more traditional shmups. However I changed my mind recently, so I'm a just ramble on about some of the things you mentioned.

The thing is, that just like traditional shmups, the manic shooter subgenre has just as much to offer in variety. It really all comes down to level design, and games in the sub-genre can distinguish themselves quite well based on this. I mean you got your slow moving bullets in fancy patterns-type games. You got your super fast aimed bullets-type games. Mixes of the two, etc.

Also as for hollow level design, I know it's easy to miss those devious mazes and environmental hazards from a game like Gradius or R-Type, but if you really get dedicated to a particular manic shooter, I think you'll find the level design can be just as devious and carefully designed.

The pixel sized hitbox was another thing I changed my mind about also. At first I thought it was less visceral, but really being visceral is more about how the levels are designed more then anything. IMO the strength of the pixel sized hitbox is it's clarity. You don't need to guess where it is in your ship, it's always in the center. You don't need to stop to think if you can squeeze in through a tight space, if you can see a gap you can do it (in theory).

All in all, all (good) video games are built on a trinity of reflexes, strategy, and execution. Bullet Hell shooters are no exception.

[Hagane]

I'd suggest you play more Psikyo. Bullet patterns can get pretty bullet hell-ish at later levels especially on their last titles, but oldschool basics still apply and scoring mechanisms aren't as detached from survival as in Cave or Touhou. You might also want to try Dangun Feveron by Cave, or some Raizing games like Battle Garegga, Armed Police Batrider or Great Mahou Daisakusen, and the Raiden Fighters series by Seibu Kaihatsu. They are modern shooters but not completely bullet hell so you might like those better.

If you want to get into Sengoku Blade there's a link to a (still very unfinished) guide in my sig to learn a bit of the basics.

[Kollision]

Do you have an Xbox 360?

If so, a good catch is Bullet Soul. It's Japanese but it's region-free.
Bullets are cancelled by destroying enemies, but those that get through to you aren't overly fast or overly complicated to dodge. It starts very easy and gets slowly more complicated as stages unfold.
It's IMO a good way to get into the bullet hell genre.

[k39bk]

I'd suggest you play more Psikyo. Bullet patterns can get pretty bullet hell-ish at later levels especially on their last titles, but oldschool basics still apply and scoring mechanisms aren't as detached from survival as in Cave or Touhou. You might also want to try Dangun Feveron by Cave, or some Raizing games like Battle Garegga, Armed Police Batrider or Great Mahou Daisakusen, and the Raiden Fighters series by Seibu Kaihatsu. They are modern shooters but not completely bullet hell so you might like those better.

If you want to get into Sengoku Blade there's a link to a (still very unfinished) guide in my sig to learn a bit of the basics.

I appreciate your advice & yes Dangun Feveron is the only CAVE game I actually enjoyed. Raising games are ok, no love no hate from me but I seem to prefer Psikyo in this manic genre. Maybe because of their full sprite hitbox, fast bullets & more or less diversity in levels. Though things get a lot more manic in later stages but it is acceptable for me in those later levels. Oh, & Cho Ren Sha

[Special World]

They're probably an acquired taste, though I guess I fell in love with them as soon as I played Dodonpachi. Definitely play these games for score at least a little, even if you're trying to 1CC. I thought Deathsmiles was mediocre until I fully understood the scoring system, and now it's one of my favorites. You might just have to find one where the scoring really clicks, as I don't like the scoring so much in a couple of Cave games.

But also definitely check out Mars Matrix. I think that's an absolutely amazing introduction to the subgenre, and one that really rewards going for scoring gains. Play the Dreamcast version though, the arcade one isn't nearly as fun.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Also as for hollow level design, I know it's easy to miss those devious mazes and environmental hazards from a game like Gradius or R-Type, but if you really get dedicated to a particular manic shooter, I think you'll find the level design can be just as devious and carefully designed.

Yeah, the enemy patterns that appear and the way they can be made to try and trap you can feel just as intense as physical walls to avoid. That, and Cave games in particular (like Futari's last couple of stages) are also designed to take full advantage of the scoring systems by offering places for lucrative milking/cancelling/etc, if you know how. That's also part of the appeal.

I agree that you don't need to necessarily like bullet hell games to like shmups in general. They're probably the most popular style of shmup, but they're not the only kind of shmup out there.

[louisg]

I don't like most bullet hell games either. I always feel like they lack the pacing and variety of other shmups, though I did like DDP: Daifukkatsu and the Takumi games a lot (like Mars Matrix). More often than not, though, I'll be playing non-manics like Under Defeat, RayForce, and Soukyugurentai. BTW, if you tackle Mars Matrix, be forewarned that it's hard as nails. It's got a serious learning curve, but it's rewarding if you keep up with it.

It's funny, I remember when shmups.com was all about Thunderforce and MUSHA

... and updated their reviews section

[KAI]

1 word, MILESTONE.

[chum]

I enjoy flying through bullets. Don't you?

[jepjepjep]

I think you should try some of the older transitional games like V-V, Batsugun, and Donpachi. Faster, aimed bullets and more of an old-school vibe. There are plenty of awesome shmups that are not danmaku.

[k39bk]

I enjoy flying through bullets. Don't you?

Ahh, a tough question!! May be I would have enjoyed it more with proper hand to eye coordination over my hitbox instead of running into bullets & praying it misses my invisible hitbox 50% of the time. Or maybe I enjoy to blast that enemy before it gets any chance to spray bullets on me!?

[TransatlanticFoe]

If you don't like them, you don't have to try and force yourself to. As mentioned, try out some of the games which bridged the bullet hell era - Batsugun and V-V are ideal starting points.

Ultimately there are plenty of non-bullet hell games, so it's not the end of the world... just don't expect to be playing much that's new.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

May be I would have enjoyed it more with proper hand to eye coordination over my hitbox instead of running into bullets & praying it misses my invisible hitbox 50% of the time. Or maybe I enjoy to blast that enemy before it gets any chance to spray bullets on me!?

This is an unusual complain as most shmups, especially non-bullet hell ones, are about knowing where the hitbox is. In a game that's more about environmental collisions like Gradius or R-Type, it's particularly important to know where the actual hitbox for the landscape or bosses are so you can know how close you can get to something without dying. Hitboxes in most bullet hell games are small and generally easy to find on the character sprite via visual cues (like behind the heli rotors in DDP and Ketsui, the visible yellow cockpits in Giga Wing, etc) if not outright displayed on the character sprite itself like in DFK, Esp2 or Futari, and the bullets themselves are generally obvious where you'll die if you touch them (the center of the bullet). No matter what the shmup, there's a learning curve to figuring out exactly where the hitboxes are.

If you're envisioning a game where you can kill everything before it gets a chance to shoot you, wouldn't that mean you have nothing to dodge? Aside from the obvious boss fights, I can think of several Cave games where you can actually speedkill stuff by being aggressive with your laser aura, etc, to prevent it from getting a chance to use their more threatening attacks.

[Hagane]

If you're envisioning a game where you can kill everything before it gets a chance to shoot you, wouldn't that mean you have nothing to dodge?

Speed killing threatening enemies is one of Psikyo's main traits. Failing to speedkill something dangerous will most definitely take one or several lives from you.

[k39bk]

May be I would have enjoyed it more with proper hand to eye coordination over my hitbox instead of running into bullets & praying it misses my invisible hitbox 50% of the time. Or maybe I enjoy to blast that enemy before it gets any chance to spray bullets on me!?

This is an unusual complain as most shmups, especially non-bullet hell ones, are about knowing where the hitbox is. In a game that's more about environmental collisions like Gradius or R-Type, it's particularly important to know where the actual hitbox for the landscape or bosses are so you can know how close you can get to something without dying. Hitboxes in most bullet hell games are small and generally easy to find on the character sprite via visual cues (like behind the heli rotors in DDP and Ketsui, the visible yellow cockpits in Giga Wing, etc) if not outright displayed on the character sprite itself like in DFK, Esp2 or Futari, and the bullets themselves are generally obvious where you'll die if you touch them (the center of the bullet). No matter what the shmup, there's a learning curve to figuring out exactly where the hitboxes are.

If you're envisioning a game where you can kill everything before it gets a chance to shoot you, wouldn't that mean you have nothing to dodge? Aside from the obvious boss fights, I can think of several Cave games where you can actually speedkill stuff by being aggressive with your laser aura, etc, to prevent it from getting a chance to use their more threatening attacks.

you didn't get my point. Gradius V also has small hitbox but it doesn't always force you to squeeze between bullets which will only give you the room to fit your tiny hitbox. Sure you can take advantage of ur small hitbox during few critical areas but that is just an advantage, the entire game doesn't revolve around that mechanics & I am not envisioning any game where I can kill everything on sight. I will try to destry it as soon as possible instead of indulging it's bullets.

[k39bk]

If you're envisioning a game where you can kill everything before it gets a chance to shoot you, wouldn't that mean you have nothing to dodge?

Speed killing threatening enemies is one of Psikyo's main traits. Failing to speedkill something dangerous will most definitely take one or several lives from you.

This.

[Skykid]

Play Battle Garegga.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Speed killing threatening enemies is one of Psikyo's main traits. Failing to speedkill something dangerous will most definitely take one or several lives from you.

Are Psikyo games generally considered bullet hell games? I always thought they'd be considered to be more Raiden like, with a lot of fast sniping bullets, at least later on. Then again I guess they do have some fairly dense patterns.

Gradius V also has small hitbox but it doesn't always force you to squeeze between bullets which will only give you the room to fit your tiny hitbox.

In the higher loops, you're really forced to squeeze through some tight gaps and intimately know your hitbox. I get your point, and it's true the first loop doesn't require anything too hair-raising, but once you get up to the higher loops in the game things get to be a bit ridiculous.

[Bananamatic]

try pink sweets

[Obiwanshinobi]

Play Dangun Feveron for the score. Collect each and every disco man (it's more of a collect 'em up than shmup). The only bullet hell game that felt manic to me (when I read "manic", I think Raiden Fighters).

[Squire Grooktook]

I will try to destry it as soon as possible instead of indulging it's bullets.

For me that is one of the strengths of the sub-genre though. That even when you really learn a stage, you still can't just instant kill everything, but instead of have to keep your execution and focus high to avoid dieing.

I understand where your coming from though. I would say stick with what you love, but keep an open mind, and if you ever feel an itch to play something with a lot of fast moving bullet patterns, indulge yourself and boot up Dodonpachi or something.

[To Far Away Times]

I started out the other way, playing bullet hells and eventually trying out manics. I started with Touhou and eventually Cave and it took me about a year to venture outside of that. But now the Thunderforce and R-Type series are some of my favorites.

When I'm playing bullet hell games, I don't concentrate on my hitbox so much as concentrating on luring the enemies fire to one direction or finding space. After a while, you just kinda "feel" where the hitbox is. Depends on the game, but the small hitbox is there so you can slip through a narrow space if you have to, but you shouldn't have to be that close to bullets all the time.

If you get a chance, give the first Mushihimesama a try. Play it in original mode, and it's definitely a bit more of a maniac than it's sequel!

[EmperorIng]

Psikyo games are, in general, a good bridge between "manic" shooters and "bullet hell."

They're also better than half of all the bullet hell games, to boot!

Games like Gunbird 2 and Dragon Blaze are a nice mixture of classic sensibilities with a few dangerous, creative patterns.

The dreamcast Takumi games (Giga Wing, Giga Wing 2, and Mars Matrix) are also good "jumps" into the sub-genre, because the reflection gimmick allows you to creatively navigate the bullet patterns instead of just micro-tapping through some messy Cave spread.

Basically, the reason you'd want to play a bullet hell game is for the scoring system, or the thrill of survival against big, nasty patterns. If one or the other aren't doing it for you, then there's not a whole lot of reason to continue on.

I say this as someone who's not totally in to bullet hell games my self (aside from the ones I recommended).

[louisg]

I hate micro-tapping, and I prefer games that let me move in wider patterns. I agree with the Psikyo and Takumi suggestions. Strikers 1945 for example (as pointed out above) is about prioritizing targets and smart option use more than just bullet avoidance, and it's the same with Under Defeat.

For bullet-reflect, I'd suggest GigaWing 1 because it has a bomb that you can fall back on. It's less subtle than Mars Matrix because the shield is all-or-nothing, but also a lot more easy-going and the reflect mechanic is easier to aim. I dunno if I'd recommend GW2-- It plays like it ran out of development time/money halfway through.

The later Toaplan games and earlier Cave games are also good to start with (Batsugun or Donpachi for example).

I started out the other way, playing bullet hells and eventually trying out manics. I started with Touhou and eventually Cave and it took me about a year to venture outside of that. But now the Thunderforce and R-Type series are some of my favorites.

That's good to know. I grew up with Thunderforce, and sometimes it's hard to separate out nostalgia from actual quality. Did Thunderforce III present a challenge for you when you first started playing it, or are you more a fan of the atmosphere and vibe of the game?

[Hagane]

Are Psikyo games generally considered bullet hell games? I always thought they'd be considered to be more Raiden like, with a lot of fast sniping bullets, at least later on. Then again I guess they do have some fairly dense patterns.

They are somewhere in between. There are not fast snipers in general in Psikyo. Fast bullets are shot by medium-large enemies and they don't appear from the sides or behind. In older Psikyo games popcorns can fill the screen with bullets if you don't keep them in check, and large enemies fire fast, often static patterns to back them up. If you let those large enemies live for too long things will get out of control fast because there will be too many bullets to dodge. So the challenge generally lies in staying on the offensive avoiding the popcorn to get those fast kills.

Strkers 1945 II is kind of an exception. That one is more Raiden like, with little incentive to get in close. But still bullet count is high especially on the bosses.

In every game they released they kept going up in the bullet count, and I think no one could say that something like Dragon Blaze or S1999 isn't a bullet hell shooter.

[null1024]

Play Dangun Feveron for the score. Collect each and every disco man (it's more of a collect 'em up than shmup). The only bullet hell game that felt manic to me (when I read "manic", I think Raiden Fighters).

Dangun is one of two games I ever try to consistently play for score, the other being Mars Matrix. I'm no good at them, but the scoring is really fun and interesting.


Mars Matrix might be interesting to you, OP, but it sure packs the bullets on screen. The reflect mechanic is great fun to use to deal with enemies, but it mightn't be your style.

And Dangun is so different from the rest of Cave's output. Almost certainly more up your alley, k39bk. Lots of faster, less densely packed bullets. Dangun's whole scoring system also encourages speedkilling, which is great [if you kill an enemy within a few frames of it coming on screen, it spews out a bunch of disco men].

Cho Ren Sha 68k for the PC also has that kind of faster, less dense patterns. A little unpolished at spots [the background never changes, you can gain a crazy amount of extra lives], but still really good, has a proto-bullet hell quality to it, so it still has a bunch of older enemy pattern elements to it.