DOJ question about gameplay development

[bestcellar]

I'm at a point with DOJ (white label, arcade) where I can mostly chain level 1, chain the beginning and end of level 2, and can get to midway through level 4, overall. My score for level 1 is about 15 million on my best games, and I'm about 25-30 million total after level 2 when I'm running as well as I can, and about 40 million overall.

Unfortunately, I'm so hardwired to try to score that I keep falling into a trap where if I don't run a 500+ chain on level 1, I suicide and start over. Then, I see vids of dudes running to 100 mil at the end of level 2 and wonder if I should be just studying those and ignoring later levels. Is it dumb to be score-focused at this point in my gameplay development? Should I just not worry about score and keep trying to progress through the game, or should I keep attempting to develop a full chain on the first couple of levels?

Any input is appreciated, thanks.

[brokenhalo]

what are you playing on? are you able to practice individual stages/sections or do you play credit runs?

edit, nevermind. i remember you play in the arcade. don't throw away those low scoring runs. play each credit all the way through so that you can learn how to survive the later stages. just through the repetition of playing stage one and two each credit you'll slowly start to tighten them up and get more consistant at them. but it isn't going to do you much good if you don't ever learn the later stages.

bottom line, play for survival first. as you get more comfortable with the stages you can integrate scoring in easier, rather than try to do both at the same time.

[bestcellar]

what are you playing on? are you able to practice individual stages/sections or do you play credit runs?

I'm playing at my local arcade, whenever I can, so it's only credit runs. Not able to practice individual stages.

I suppose the question I'm really asking is - does learning full chains help you progress further, or does blitzing through the hardest parts of your deepest stage help more? I guess it's probably an age-old question...

[brokenhalo]

and as far as watching replays, they can definitely help. but being familair with the game will help you digest what you are seeing. i find that if i rewatch a superplay every few weeks while i'm practicing a game, i'll find new stuff to steal each time. doj is a really hard game to play for score though, so don't let it drive you crazy. you'll get there little by little.

[bestcellar]

and as far as watching replays, they can definitely help. but being familair with the game will help you digest what you are seeing. i find that if i rewatch a superplay every few weeks while i'm practicing a game, i'll find new stuff to steal each time. doj is a really hard game to play for score though, so don't let it drive you crazy. you'll get there little by little.

Thanks, I appreciate the input and encouragement (and the above edited post as well!)

I had a hunch that playing all the way through was probably correct, but the disproportionate nature of high scores on DOJ throw my whole perspective out of whack. Whereas Donpachi is far more about getting further and further in the game, you can have a wildly outlying score with the right chain in DOJ and it seems to throw incentives off.

[To Far Away Times]

Playing for score before learning to play for survival is like trying to learn to run before you can walk.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Whereas Donpachi is far more about getting further and further in the game, you can have a wildly outlying score with the right chain in DOJ and it seems to throw incentives off.

Donpachi actually does offer the potential to get huge scores via chaining, but unlike later games, you basically make a bunch of smaller chains throughout the stage instead of maintaining one really long chain.

I think it depends on the individual, but for most it's recommended to learn the game before seriously playing for huge scores. Few games require serious scoreplay to get the extends (you can get both in the first loop in DOJ) anyways. Some people do learn to play for score at the same time as they're learning to survive, but the chaining in the pachi series requires a lot of precision (especially full-stage chains) to the point where I'd say you're probably better off learning just to survive to the end of the first loop before trying to score in it.

No idea if it's like Progear (since I suck at DOJ), but I remember being told in the score thread that most of Progear's score comes from the second loop. If DOJ is like that, then if you really want to get a good score you should be worrying about getting through the first loop.

[bestcellar]

Playing for score before learning to play for survival is like trying to learn to run before you can walk.

I don't know if it's quite THAT backwards

The origin of my question sort of dates back to my martial arts days. There were certain instructors that felt that a really good #1 (self defense move) was far more invaluable than barely know your highest number technique. I think when I started playing arcade games like this, I had a strong (apparently unusual) instinct to play early stages perfectly before advancing very far into a game.

[bestcellar]

Whereas Donpachi is far more about getting further and further in the game, you can have a wildly outlying score with the right chain in DOJ and it seems to throw incentives off.

Donpachi actually does offer the potential to get huge scores via chaining, but unlike later games, you basically make a bunch of smaller chains throughout the stage instead of maintaining one really long chain.

I think it depends on the individual, but for most it's recommended to learn the game before seriously playing for huge scores. Few games require serious scoreplay to get the extends (you can get both in the first loop in DOJ) anyways. Some people do learn to play for score at the same time as they're learning to survive, but the chaining in the pachi series requires a lot of precision (especially full-stage chains) to the point where I'd say you're probably better off learning just to survive to the end of the first loop before trying to score in it.

No idea if it's like Progear (since I suck at DOJ), but I remember being told in the score thread that most of Progear's score comes from the second loop. If DOJ is like that, then if you really want to get a good score you should be worrying about getting through the first loop.

DOJ's chaining is such a dominant part of the scoring that you can get a little over 1,000,000 in the first stage without chaining, but something like 36,000,000 with a full chain. That's a HUGE spread for the first level (don't know if there are other games that start out like that?)

Donpachi has bigger spreads later, but the first stage (like DoDonPachi) seems to have a fairly narrow range between minimum and maximum score. I think if you're just starting out you'd score something like 500,000 in clearing the first Donpachi stage, but advanced players get anywhere from 1.3-1.6 million.

[Skykid]

I had a hunch that playing all the way through was probably correct, but the disproportionate nature of high scores on DOJ throw my whole perspective out of whack.

You should never throw a credit away, but there's nothing wrong with playing for score and learning survival at the same time IMO. I think playing for score can help you to learn the game thoroughly and sharpen your skills in a more efficient manner than bomb spamming through. Scoring properly wins you a set of very important extends, which you'll require for your first clear anyway, and it's fun to get a feel for chaining.

Chaining the first two stages in full and grabbing 100% of bees will get you around 100mil by the end of stage 2. From that point, just do what you can. I can only really chain up to the mid-boss on stg3, and in patches thereafter, but that's enough to set you up for a decent score and all the extends you can carry.

I'm playing it in the arcade at the moment too, incidentally, and WL is a bastard for dropping chains and aggressive rank.

[bestcellar]

I had a hunch that playing all the way through was probably correct, but the disproportionate nature of high scores on DOJ throw my whole perspective out of whack.

You should never throw a credit away, but there's nothing wrong with playing for score and learning survival at the same time IMO. I think playing for score can help you to learn the game thoroughly and sharpen your skills in a more efficient manner than bomb spamming through. Scoring properly wins you a set of very important extends, which you'll require for your first clear anyway, and it's fun to get a feel for chaining.

Chaining the first two stages in full and grabbing 100% of bees will get you around 100mil by the end of stage 2. From that point, just do what you can. I can only really chain up to the mid-boss on stg3, and in patches thereafter, but that's enough to set you up for a decent score and all the extends you can carry.

I'm playing it in the arcade at the moment too, incidentally, and WL is a bastard for dropping chains and aggressive rank.

Is it true that part of BL's intent was to make sure level 3 could be run as a full chain?

Also, how are the 2nd loop unlocking qualifications different?

[Skykid]

Is it true that part of BL's intent was to make sure level 3 could be run as a full chain?

Also, how are the 2nd loop unlocking qualifications different?

BL changes quite a lot. Rank drops more on death, the chaining gauge works properly (I believe jpj or someone discovered an actual error in the WL code that shows the gauge behaving erratically, leading to suspicious chain breaks), hypers drop at different points and more frequently, making bridging slightly easier, and life extends are further apart. I don't think 2nd loop qualifications change at all, only that when you make it to the 2nd loop in BL you keep your amassed life stock as opposed to having them stripped. You can also choose to play a 1-loop run from the start.

You definitely can chain out of the stg3 midboss on BL, you just need to leave some of those cannonball things on screen when you kill it, and then pluck away at them until the horde comes down. Very hard to do though, I've never managed to time it right.

I recommend sticking to your practice of learning to chain/survive simultaneously - I think it's more fulfilling and advantageous in the long run. Try to nail the first two stages (or the 2nd at least in 2 parts) and then survive from there.

And use A-Type EXY.

[Mortificator]

And you know, you don't have to stop after one credit each time. Your goal might be a 1CC, but continues are a useful tool in reaching that level of proficiency.

[Cagar]

Learn to clear first loop, focus on surviving and try to memorize as much stuff as you can.
Then learn to chain first loop. The worst mistake you can make is to decide to 2-ALL without giving a shit about score, and play like that for over 700 hours (my mame-timer), have a shitty score AND still haven't cleared 2 loops. Oh, and this is black label.

[bestcellar]

Is it true that part of BL's intent was to make sure level 3 could be run as a full chain?

Also, how are the 2nd loop unlocking qualifications different?

BL changes quite a lot. Rank drops more on death, the chaining gauge works properly (I believe jpj or someone discovered an actual error in the WL code that shows the gauge behaving erratically, leading to suspicious chain breaks), hypers drop at different points and more frequently, making bridging slightly easier, and life extends are further apart. I don't think 2nd loop qualifications change at all, only that when you make it to the 2nd loop in BL you keep your amassed life stock as opposed to having them stripped. You can also choose to play a 1-loop run from the start.

You definitely can chain out of the stg3 midboss on BL, you just need to leave some of those cannonball things on screen when you kill it, and then pluck away at them until the horde comes down. Very hard to do though, I've never managed to time it right.

I recommend sticking to your practice of learning to chain/survive simultaneously - I think it's more fulfilling and advantageous in the long run. Try to nail the first two stages (or the 2nd at least in 2 parts) and then survive from there.

And use A-Type EXY.

Wow, I thought I was hallucinating some of the eccentricities of the chain gauge on WL, it's good to know that I'm not crazy! My chain is frequently breaking at about 200 on level 1, and sometimes it wouldn't make any sense. Part of it was probably the way I was doing it.

Why do you prefer A-EXY? I've been a type B guy ever since I switched to C in Donpachi and the wider range helped me to maintain chains longer. For some reason I was able to do the same in DOJ once I went from A-L to B-E but it was probably because I was just getting so much better at that time.

[Erppo]

the chaining gauge works properly (I believe jpj or someone discovered an actual error in the WL code that shows the gauge behaving erratically, leading to suspicious chain breaks),

I'm not going to believe this without a good source. In practice, the behaviour of the chain gauge should be pretty much identical in both versions and all the same strats generally work.

[Geist]

Set yourself a realistic goal to work with -> learn to fully chain stage 1.

If you lose your chain, pick it up immediately afterwards.
Think about the reason behind a chain break; work on perfecting your line -> full chain.
Collect all bees as late as possible for more points, but start with memorizing all of them.

Use the bees to keep your chain going, remember that exposing bees with your laser actually
fills your chaining gauge, exploit this to your advantage.

Learn the difference between A- and C-tapping.
Then utilise C-tapping on popcorn enemies to control the gauge until new enemies populate the screen.
This is vital for chaining in the first stages IMHO.

Decide what you want to do in stage 2:
a) full chain using hypers
b) full chain - saving hypers for the last scoring section
c) try to chain as much as possible - saving hypers for the last scoring section.

Do not put too much effort into stage 3, it is filler IMO, though the boss is fun.
// Something to do later - > try to smuggle all the hypers into stage 4 for BIG POINTS

Also, learn to use the B-button in the right spots, if you are still trying to clear the first loop.
It can also make sense to use the temporary invincibility! you gain from a released hyper to clear a certain situation /fly through a wall of bullets unscathed.

Learn to chain stage 4 (tough sections) and 5 (super points) after you can do the 1-ALL.

Hope this helps you a little.

[Erppo]

The score distribution in DOJ is a bit odd. By far the easiest score/difficulty ratio is in fully chaining 1-2, but pretty soon after that comes 1-5. The stage is actually not very difficult to chain (certainly below full 1-4 and 1-3 in BL) and even a bad chain nets you over 300M.

[Skykid]

the chaining gauge works properly (I believe jpj or someone discovered an actual error in the WL code that shows the gauge behaving erratically, leading to suspicious chain breaks),

I'm not going to believe this without a good source. In practice, the behaviour of the chain gauge should be pretty much identical in both versions and all the same strats generally work.

Sorry, I was going from memory and got this mixed up. It's not the chain gauge that was broken, but the hyper meter not always filling properly. Here's the quote. As for the source, judge for yourself:

"There are other small subtle changes as well. The common perception is that the Hyper Meter fills faster in Black Label, but actually there are small nuances in the original that result in the Hyper Meter not always filling as it should, which have been addressed in Black Label."

http://www.world-of-arcades.net/Cave/Dd ... uJouBl.htm

[Erppo]

Sorry, I was going from memory and got this mixed up. It's not the chain gauge that was broken, but the hyper meter not always filling properly. Here's the quote. As for the source, judge for yourself:

"There are other small subtle changes as well. The common perception is that the Hyper Meter fills faster in Black Label, but actually there are small nuances in the original that result in the Hyper Meter not always filling as it should, which have been addressed in Black Label."

http://www.world-of-arcades.net/Cave/Dd ... uJouBl.htm

That still sounds pretty dubious, considering how much slower the hypers charge in WL. I can believe there is a bug but I doubt it's the only reason for slower charge.

Also that text does have at least some errors. It says you could creditfeed to 2-5 while in reality all continuing is disabled in the WL loop. WL most definitely remains the harder game in the loop too, even if you ignore the silly way it handles the extends there.

This is clearly wrong too: "...western players, ie players who cannot clear the first loop, or no-miss no-bomb many levels."

[KyoKusagani1999]

I believe it's a bug related to the Full-Auto fire..
If you tap the button, it fills faster. The Nuisance is
that they forgot to assign the Gauge to the C-Button along
with the B and A Buttons.

As for Western Players Not being able to get into the Second Loop...
There's a Person right in the STG Hall of Records to prove you so otherwise.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 24&start=0