XRGB-mini Framemeister

[Konsolkongen]

I have used my JAP Mega Drive 1 with EU 32X (@60Hz) perfectly with the Mini. I made my own cables though. From the MD to 32X I use GND, R, G, B, Left Audio, Right Audio and Composite sync. From the 32X to the Mini I use composite sync as well. Seems to work perfectly fine for me, but I never had any dropouts on the Mega Drive to begin with.

[chadti99]

I have used my JAP Mega Drive 1 with EU 32X (@60Hz) perfectly with the Mini. I made my own cables though. From the MD to 32X I use GND, R, G, B, Left Audio, Right Audio and Composite sync. From the 32X to the Mini I use composite sync as well. Seems to work perfectly fine for me, but I never had any dropouts on the Mega Drive to begin with.

I'm using raw sync so maybe that is the issue. Do you have jailbars with composite sync?

[Konsolkongen]

Composite sync IS raw sync It's very confusing. Composite video is the other kind.

No jailbars. You can fix this on the model 1 by lifting a pin on the VDP.

[ZellSF]

So got home to my PS2 Slim and starting testing some... PS2 60hz is 59.93, probably rounding error so correct according to NTSC specification. PSX mode is 59.40 and does stutter. Weird I didn't notice it earlier.

So I'm considering sometime in the (distant) future getting a US PSX, from what I gather the PSOne is my best choice if I don't want to use a stepdown power converter since I can buy a native power supply for that (I'm assuming European ones work). Then I can play imports simply using a boot disc? Are those commonly available still?

Is my thinking here correct?

Does NES via composite at least look like it would in the 80's on the old wooden TVs?

No, the XRGB-mini doesn't emulate a CRT TV... It just makes sure the picture is displayed correctly on modern TVs (which will otherwise do some horrible motion adaptive deinterlacing or something). It can also add scanlines, if you like that. And it will most likely upscale the image better than your TV will by itself.

Also I think Fudoh said the combing filter in the XRGB-mini is pretty bad, so composite sources won't look pretty.

I realize NES is a pain in the butt to get looking very good but if I can just get serviceable picture and no lag I'd be fine for now.

No lag is impossible on a modern TV, you need to figure out how much lag you're willing to tolerate. The XRGB-mini is a full on processor that will always add 2 (?) frames of lag (the end result will still likely be better than connecting directly to your TV).

Does anyone know if a Sync Strike still has any use to me? Will it do much tot he picture quality? Will it add lag?

No, probably not and no. Unless you have sync problems you don't need a sync strike.

[BuckoA51]

The differences in refresh are probably because the PS2 basically just has a full PS1 inside it, including its own clock etc.

I would go for a NTSC PS1 with an expansion port, a full-on ISO loading flash cart is due to be released for that system sometime soon.

[ZellSF]

The differences in refresh are probably because the PS2 basically just has a full PS1 inside it, including its own clock etc.

I would go for a NTSC PS1 with an expansion port, a full-on ISO loading flash cart is due to be released for that system sometime soon.

I was considering that. Assuming it's real ("impossible" project asking for donations...), but then I would need a step down power converter, which I for some reason find to be a messy solution.

And I would have to buy one now, since when that's released I think those audiophile PSX consoles are going to get a whole lot rarer fast.

[Smashbro29]

Does NES via composite at least look like it would in the 80's on the old wooden TVs?

No, the XRGB-mini doesn't emulate a CRT TV... It just makes sure the picture is displayed correctly on modern TVs (which will otherwise do some horrible motion adaptive deinterlacing or something). It can also add scanlines, if you like that. And it will most likely upscale the image better than your TV will by itself.

Also I think Fudoh said the combing filter in the XRGB-mini is pretty bad, so composite sources won't look pretty.

What I meant by this was will it look serviceable? it's quite literally my only option at this point.

I realize NES is a pain in the butt to get looking very good but if I can just get serviceable picture and no lag I'd be fine for now.

No lag is impossible on a modern TV, you need to figure out how much lag you're willing to tolerate. The XRGB-mini is a full on processor that will always add 2 (?) frames of lag (the end result will still likely be better than connecting directly to your TV).
My TV is under 1 frame through HDMI, I was told the Framemeister was also under 1 frame of input lag. SOMETHING'S FISHY.

Does anyone know if a Sync Strike still has any use to me? Will it do much tot he picture quality? Will it add lag?

No, probably not and no. Unless you have sync problems you don't need a sync strike.

Seems reasonable enough.

Is the male to male cable I linked to for component good enough? Why was it only recommended to get a female component to male d-terminal?

[NWrain]

For example, if you use the Play Station 2 component cable which is male. That will fit into the female component to D-terminal adapter.

[Hamburglar]

Also I think Fudoh said the combing filter in the XRGB-mini is pretty bad, so composite sources won't look pretty.

Does this apply for s-video as well? That's basically my only option for the PS1. Or is that combing filter comment only related to composite?

The differences in refresh are probably because the PS2 basically just has a full PS1 inside it, including its own clock etc.

I would go for a NTSC PS1 with an expansion port, a full-on ISO loading flash cart is due to be released for that system sometime soon.

This is very interesting as I was just about to sell my PS1 with the expansion port. Can I get a link to this? Also, I find it hard to believe the PS1 expansion port will be able to read that much data that quickly! That would be impressive!

I have noticed my Wii and Gamecube (both using component cables) look pretty crappy on the XRGB Mini. Is it recommended to not even run these through the XRGB Mini and just have them running straight to my plasma's component input?

[Fudoh]

Does this apply for s-video as well? That's basically my only option for the PS1. Or is that combing filter comment only related to composite?

no, the comb filter does not affect the s-video input. Why's s-video your only option on a PS1 ? Use RGB.

Yes, a comb filter is only required for composite video to split up the luma and chroma channels for further processing.

[Smashbro29]

Does NES via composite at least look like it would in the 80's on the old wooden TVs?

No, the XRGB-mini doesn't emulate a CRT TV... It just makes sure the picture is displayed correctly on modern TVs (which will otherwise do some horrible motion adaptive deinterlacing or something). It can also add scanlines, if you like that. And it will most likely upscale the image better than your TV will by itself.

Also I think Fudoh said the combing filter in the XRGB-mini is pretty bad, so composite sources won't look pretty.

What I meant by this was will it look serviceable? it's quite literally my only option at this point.

I realize NES is a pain in the butt to get looking very good but if I can just get serviceable picture and no lag I'd be fine for now.

No lag is impossible on a modern TV, you need to figure out how much lag you're willing to tolerate. The XRGB-mini is a full on processor that will always add 2 (?) frames of lag (the end result will still likely be better than connecting directly to your TV).
My TV is under 1 frame through HDMI, I was told the Framemeister was also under 1 frame of input lag. SOMETHING'S FISHY.

Does anyone know if a Sync Strike still has any use to me? Will it do much tot he picture quality? Will it add lag?

No, probably not and no. Unless you have sync problems you don't need a sync strike.

Seems reasonable enough.

Is the male to male cable I linked to for component good enough? Why was it only recommended to get a female component to male d-terminal?

I answered in bold. By the way.

GOD ******* this isn't what I meant to do. Jeez.

[Ed Oscuro]

I realize NES is a pain in the butt to get looking very good but if I can just get serviceable picture and no lag I'd be fine for now.

No lag is impossible on a modern TV, you need to figure out how much lag you're willing to tolerate. The XRGB-mini is a full on processor that will always add 2 (?) frames of lag (the end result will still likely be better than connecting directly to your TV).

In theory yes, but - Are there any televisions out there that can scale a retro console's output (whichever one doesn't matter) in less time than a XRGB series processor, regardless of looks? I was under the impression that the XRGB series has always included the B0 mode (or something similar) for maximum upscaling speed over integrated scalers, and that speed was one of the basic rationales for its design. There certainly could be other scalers that use its upscaling chip / engine (or similar) but it would have some facility for pure speed.

It would be odd to think that my XRGB 1 is adding 2 frames of lag (connected to a PC VGA CRT monitor) - I expected some lag but 2 frames seems rather high (considering what the system has to do).

[Thomago]

Does this apply for s-video as well? That's basically my only option for the PS1.

Don't do that! I tried S-Video from various devices (PS1, PS2 and a settop box) and thanks to the S-Video input's heavy LPF it looked really bad. Use RGB, as Fudoh said.

[Fudoh]

It would be odd to think that my XRGB 1 is adding 2 frames of lag (connected to a PC VGA CRT monitor) - I expected some lag but 2 frames seems rather high (considering what the system has to do).

XRGB1,2,2+,3 in B1 mode are really basically lag-free (certainly less than 4ms). Frameister's faster than most TV's analogue SD inputs and faster than the XRGB-3 in B0.

[chadti99]

Quick update on my sync issue with Genesis 1 -> 32x -> Mini. I updated to the latest firmware 1.07a and noticed a new "sync level" adjustment in the menu. I dropped this from the default level of 9 down to 4 and now it works! Now if only my cable was wired for mono audio I would have sound as well. I'm guessing this may also fix the random but not quite as frequent sync issues with my Geneses 1 (by itself) and NeoGeo AES.

[chadti99]

Quick question, if I want an accurate image, true to original, do I choose "standard" or "normal 2"? I've read in this thread that "normal2" preserves the original pixel ratio but I'm not quite sure what that means. In most cases normal2 appears to stretch the image horizontally, at least compared to "standard". Most of my sources are 240p if that helps.

[Smashbro29]

It would be odd to think that my XRGB 1 is adding 2 frames of lag (connected to a PC VGA CRT monitor) - I expected some lag but 2 frames seems rather high (considering what the system has to do).

XRGB1,2,2+,3 in B1 mode are really basically lag-free (certainly less than 4ms). Frameister's faster than most TV's analogue SD inputs and faster than the XRGB-3 in B0.

Thanks for the answer to that man, I know you're the man to ask about FM stuff.

[Fudoh]

I dropped this from the default level of 9 down to 4 and now it works!

interesting, usually this settings has to be upped to 12-15 for unstable sources.

Quick question, if I want an accurate image, true to original

what's original ?

[BuckoA51]

This is very interesting as I was just about to sell my PS1 with the expansion port. Can I get a link to this?

http://psio.com.au/

I expected some lag but 2 frames seems rather high (considering what the system has to do).

Indeed, has anyone tried the lag tester on the mini yet? Fair enough that's only testing 720p which isn't what most of us bought it for but at least it would give a ball-park figure.

[Fudoh]

Indeed, has anyone tried the lag tester on the mini yet?

there have been some photo CRT/LCD comparison tests been done in the past and I will soon try it with Leo's lag tester. It's kind of a stupidly complex setup though (Lag tester > D/A conversion > downscaling > 240p conversion > Mini).

[chadti99]

I dropped this from the default level of 9 down to 4 and now it works!

interesting, usually this settings has to be upped to 12-15 for unstable sources.

Quick question, if I want an accurate image, true to original

what's original ?

Original aspect. Does standard and normal2 preserve the correct aspect ratio for say a Sega Genesis originally designed for a 4:3 CRT?

[Fudoh]

No, only one does. The narrower AR is usually the correct (TV) one.

[Shining]

Um, did a lot of PS1 games always had that fullscreen dithering/checkerboard mesh? Just tried Castlevania Chronicles and the entire screen is covered with this ugly checkerboard pattern. Insane.

[Fudoh]

if you change your RGB signal to use luma from the s-video signal for sync instead, the checkerboard should be gone.

[RGB32E]

if you change your RGB signal to use luma from the s-video signal for sync instead, the checkerboard should be gone.

I think this only applies to PAL consoles. Castlevania Cronicles uses full screen dithering, where as a game like Gunners Heaven does not. I'd be curious to rewire an AV adapter to test if that's particular to some screen resolutions on various PS HW.

[Shining]

if you change your RGB signal to use luma from the s-video signal for sync instead, the checkerboard should be gone.

I think this only applies to PAL consoles. Castlevania Cronicles uses full screen dithering, where as a game like Gunners Heaven does not. I'd be curious to rewire an AV adapter to test if that's particular to some screen resolutions on various PS HW.

Yes, this seems to be the case. Using Game_1 the checkerboards are somewhat reduced, due to the LPF i guess.

[Thomago]

if you change your RGB signal to use luma from the s-video signal for sync instead, the checkerboard should be gone.

I think this only applies to PAL consoles. Castlevania Cronicles uses full screen dithering, where as a game like Gunners Heaven does not. I'd be curious to rewire an AV adapter to test if that's particular to some screen resolutions on various PS HW.

The checkerboard stuff has nothing to do with the dithering the console does internally but with the quality of its analog output. In other words: Using the PS1's and PS2's composite sync leads to dithering-like patterns where there shouldn't be any; using their S-Video luma instead gets rid of that.

[RGB32E]

The checkerboard stuff has nothing to do with the dithering the console does internally but with the quality of its analog output. In other words: Using the PS1's and PS2's composite sync leads to dithering-like patterns where there shouldn't be any; using their S-Video luma instead gets rid of that.

The discrepancy here is that this doesn't happen on NTSC hardware with a good Playstation RGB cable (using composite video for pin 20/9 SCART/JP21). Here's a pic from my NTSC HW on the mini. Notice how there is a lot of dithering on the background art, but not the character sprites.



Also, another great thing I learned from this shenanigans is that the SYNC_LEVEL setting will fix the issue found from PS1/2 HW that won't display or is corrupted. I lowered the setting from the default value of 9 to 8/7 and got a stable picture! No need to buy a SYNC amp or sync separator (as found on eBay), just use the right settings on the mini!

[BuckoA51]

Is it that it doesn't happen on NTSC hardware, or that it just doesn't happen on all Playstations?

[marqs]

if you change your RGB signal to use luma from the s-video signal for sync instead, the checkerboard should be gone.

I think this only applies to PAL consoles. Castlevania Cronicles uses full screen dithering, where as a game like Gunners Heaven does not. I'd be curious to rewire an AV adapter to test if that's particular to some screen resolutions on various PS HW.

The checkerboard stuff has nothing to do with the dithering the console does internally but with the quality of its analog output. In other words: Using the PS1's and PS2's composite sync leads to dithering-like patterns where there shouldn't be any; using their S-Video luma instead gets rid of that.

Have you tapped csync directly from mobo or by using LM1881 at the end of a scart cable? In the latter case, my guess would be that composite video line could generate some crosstalk to R,G or B lines in some lower quality scart cables. Usage of Y or Csync in the cable would cause less interference I think.