Resolution (split from Raiden III)

[Dave_K.]

I have been making some progress (Stage 4) until I notice that "Normal" is not matching the difficulty of the acrade. (it should be a rank harder: "Acrade"). I am now back to Stage 3 now...

Only one complains on this port, no progressive scan support. The bullets of this game are so fast that it leaves tails on the screen. Mind you I am connecting the game to a New Astro City Monitor (29"CRT 15kHz RGB) in Tate.

I don't notice any tails in the Acrade center when I play the game there, Blast City (29" CRT 31kHz RGB, or should it called VGA?). Taito did make PS2 Sns2 (Japanese version) support progresssive scan, but I don't see why it doesn't make Raiden III support progressive scan also?

I made similar comments earlier in this thread as I'm playing my PS2 port on a Windy2 cab. 15khz interlaced picture is no good for vertical shooters (have you seen how bad Mushihemesama looks?). I asked if anyone that has the original arcade PCB can try playing at 15khz and see if its an interlaced or non-interlaced picture. Unfortunally I don't think people know how to look for the difference.

[cigsthecat]

This looks good on my RGB monitor. I do notice the very slight shaking/shimmer effect, but mostly on still screens and it doesn't bother me at all during gameplay. The Arcade 2 display mode is the one you want- Arcade 1 is not so good.

It is nowhere near as bad as the Mush game. And sorry Dave, I know this still doesn't answer your question. ;)

[Recap]

I asked if anyone that has the original arcade PCB can try playing at 15khz and see if its an interlaced or non-interlaced picture. Unfortunally I don't think people know how to look for the difference.

Every Type-X game but Chaos Breaker is hi-res, which implies that if you use its 15 kHz output you'll get an interlaced display. Hi-res + 15 kHz = interlace.

[Dave_K.]

I asked if anyone that has the original arcade PCB can try playing at 15khz and see if its an interlaced or non-interlaced picture. Unfortunally I don't think people know how to look for the difference.

Every Type-X game but Chaos Breaker is hi-res, which implies that if you use its 15 kHz output you'll get an interlaced display. Hi-res + 15 kHz = interlace.

Its up to the programming in the game how to render at 15khz, not solely a function of the extrenal hardware downgrading the resolution or something. Dreamcast is a perfect example. Another example is Atomiswave: I've played Dolphin Blue in both high res and low res modes....low res was non-interlaced. Some games even have options for switching from interlaced to non interlaced (including PCBs! my Mr Driller G can play in either mode).

[Recap]

Its up to the programming in the game how to render at 15khz, not solely a function of the extrenal hardware downgrading the resolution or something. Dreamcast is a perfect example. Another example is Atomiswave: I've played Dolphin Blue in both high res and low res modes....low res was non-interlaced. Some games even have options for switching from interlaced to non interlaced (including PCBs! my Mr Driller G can play in either mode).

That option is what switches between 31 kHz (non interlaced) and 15 kHz (interlaced). ANY hi-res game displayed at 15 kHz IS interlaced, DC games included. It's thanks to the interlace that it can be displayed at that rate, indeed.

[cigsthecat]

And we're off.

[Randorama]

off from what?

[Recap]

He always needed some literacy.

[cigsthecat]

off from what?

I'm afraid I can't bring myself to ruin my own joke. I'll leave it to someone else.

[Randorama]

off from what?

I'm afraid I can't bring myself to ruin my own joke. I'll leave it to someone else.

On the other hand, do you think that a GD on the game would be useful? I have a small "ethical" problem in opening a GD before getting a game, but if i some time, i'm of the party.

[cigsthecat]

Yeah, I guess I'll go do it.

[Rob]

I have a small "ethical" problem in opening a GD before getting a game

The moderators have a problem with it too.

^OT. Back to res.

[Randorama]

The moderators have a problem with it too.

^OT. Back to res.

Damn are they spying me???

Btw sorry, back to res or we're off.

(lol!)

[Dave_K.]

Its up to the programming in the game how to render at 15khz, not solely a function of the extrenal hardware downgrading the resolution or something. Dreamcast is a perfect example. Another example is Atomiswave: I've played Dolphin Blue in both high res and low res modes....low res was non-interlaced. Some games even have options for switching from interlaced to non interlaced (including PCBs! my Mr Driller G can play in either mode).

That option is what switches between 31 kHz (non interlaced) and 15 kHz (interlaced). ANY hi-res game displayed at 15 kHz IS interlaced, DC games included. It's thanks to the interlace that it can be displayed at that rate, indeed.

Ah, I think I see the problem, you seem to believe that any hires game that gets displayed at 15khz can only display in interlaced mode. This may be true if they want to preserve the number of rendered lines. But what I'm talking about is the game having an alternate rendering mode for 15khz non-interlaced. Obviously taking an originally hi-res game like raiden iii and playing it at 15khz non-interlaced would mean dropping the resolution quite a bit (what half the lines rendered?)...but at least it would be a rock stable picture.

[Recap]

And I thought I lost the interest in these boards. This is becoming promising again, thank you.

Ah, I think I see the problem, you seem to believe that any hires game that gets displayed at 15khz can only display in interlaced mode. This may be true if they want to preserve the number of rendered lines. But what I'm talking about is the game having an alternate rendering mode for 15khz non-interlaced. Obviously taking an originally hi-res game like raiden iii and playing it at 15khz non-interlaced would mean dropping the resolution quite a bit (what half the lines rendered?)...but at least it would be a rock stable picture.

I'm sorry, but that's nonsensical. If you "drop the resolution quite a bit" for a 15 kHz non-interlaced display, you get a low-res game, and one totally different graphic-wise to the original one, so any consideration about it being interlaced or not is out place. There's not a single game designed for both non-interlaced modes thoe, since that's like drawing twice the game's graphics.

[Dave_K.]

There's not a single game designed for both non-interlaced modes thoe, since that's like drawing twice the game's graphics.

Hehe, well looks like I got you then, because my Mr Driller G PCB has both an interlaced and non-interlaced mode for 15khz scanrate. If you'd like I can take a picture of it on my 15khz arcade cab to prove it. If I still had Gozur's Atomiswave I'd try to snap some pics there too.

Anyway, most arcade developers know that shmups play best using a non-interlaced display (be that 31khs hires or 15khz "low res"). I know I'm really nit picking here, and that 90% of the people on this board don't really care since they don't have arcade cabs, but I'm just curious if the real Raiden III PCB has an option to display 15khz non-interlaced.

Cigs, I agree with you its not as bad as mushi, and I could get used to playing it this way, I'm just hoping someone out there is listening and takes a clue from Arika and ports as closely to the arcade as possible.

[Recap]

Hehe, well looks like I got you then, because my Mr Driller G PCB has both an interlaced and non-interlaced mode for 15khz scanrate. If you'd like I can take a picture of it on my 15khz arcade cab to prove it.

I heard before that some PS-based low-res PCB's have the option to upscale the picture for a hi-res display, but they were low-res 3D games. Since Mr. Driller is 2D (and I think, natively hi-res), that sounds really weird. So please, take a pic for me where I can see the 15-kHz mode's scanlines.

Anyway, most arcade developers know that shmups play best using a non-interlaced display (be that 31khs hires or 15khz "low res"). I know I'm really nit picking here, and that 90% of the people on this board don't really care since they don't have arcade cabs, but I'm just curious if the real Raiden III PCB has an option to display 15khz non-interlaced.

Believe me - it doesn't. If you're right about Driller, that's just an exception. Designing a game twice for both modes is not a job anyone can afford. Devs know that most Japanese arcade monitors are able to display 31 kHz, so the 15 kHz mode is just an extra done by the hardware itself which isn't going to be really used.

[GaijinPunch]

Believe me - it doesn't. If you're right about Driller, that's just an exception.

I'm more curious about Metal Slug 6. The guy at the Sega booth said that they hadn't decided which version it would ship with (or both) but they had 15khz and 31khz on display, right next to each other. Recap says that the sprites are all high res. I'll admit -- I've put about 90 seconds of research into this game as I'm starting to get burned out on the series, but it looks like the same old sprites to me. When I say "same" I mean in that they just copied them over, not even drew them the same. As someone said in the OT forum, "would it kill them to draw some new sprites"?

I guess if nothing else it shows that the Atomiswave cabs support both modes... now why Playmore won't use the 15khz is just a mystery.

[Recap]

I'm more curious about Metal Slug 6. The guy at the Sega booth said that they hadn't decided which version it would ship with (or both) but they had 15khz and 31khz on display, right next to each other. Recap says that the sprites are all high res. .

Recap says they are all hi-res-DISPLAYED. They obviously are using the low-res designs for non-background material. And again, what you saw (and they answered about) was a hi-res 15 kHz (interlaced) display and a 31 kHz hi-res display for the exact same game. The AW has both modes and you switch between them with a button. They aren't drawing the game at two different resolutions, that's for sure.

As someone said in the OT forum, "would it kill them to draw some new sprites"?

Most likely. These games' sales are poor these days. New graphics would take them much more time and effort.

I guess if nothing else it shows that the Atomiswave cabs support both modes... now why Playmore won't use the 15khz is just a mystery

Easy - standardization. The industry wants to move to 31 kHz-only monitors.

[GaijinPunch]

Easy - standardization. The industry wants to move to 31 kHz-only monitors.

Obviously Sega/Sammy feels otherwise. Why go to the hassle of having hardware support both modes?

[professor ganson]

interesting game. They tried to update the old formula with a few minor tweaks like smaller hitzone, more pattern-based attacks, less weapon power levels, changed the score "system"´s bias and the weapon balance. Even apart from the graphics, this is clearly a much more modern game than the old Raiden parts, although influences - ranging from Cave to Psikyo - come through only in minimal doses.
There are quite a few things I´m not happy with, especially the slow ship speed, the music and the draw priority (transparency effects overlay bullet visibility frequently). But the game has a clear-cut gameplay profile justifying its existence, and the level design is much better than pretty much anything which came out in recent years (yes, clearly better than that of Mushihime Sama). No uninspired repetional attack waves, very little generic symmetry, and almost nothing in common with previous Raiden games, so you have to start all over learning things. Bosses can be point-blanked beautifully, but don´t have cheap safe spots like in the first Raiden.
Port quality is excellent, no doubt about that, in some ways even better than what Arika did with the Cave games. Boss Rush and Score Attack mode offer great ways to learn the game. However, if anyone doesn´t own the Raiden collection and/or Raiden DX for PS1, those are still the better games overall.

Raiden 3 will be the first polygonal shmup I´m going to play with any degree of seriousness.

I've copied this because it seems to me to contain an insightful comparison between DX and III. I do not know either game well enough to be confident about what you say here, but it all sounds right to me, given what I do know.

[SAM]

This looks good on my RGB monitor. I do notice the very slight shaking/shimmer effect, but mostly on still screens and it doesn't bother me at all during gameplay. The Arcade 2 display mode is the one you want- Arcade 1 is not so good.

The images actually look quite good on my RGB monitor, but not crystal clear like in the acrede. The real bad thing is all fast moving bullest leave a second image due to the interlance...

It is nowhere near as bad as the Mush game. And sorry Dave, I know this still doesn't answer your question.

Mushi got interlance picture resized to fit a TV's screen, if you displayed it on a RGB monitor, you found that it have been squeezed on the side. Have any one tried to expand it back to normal proportion by adjusting the setting on the RGB monitor?

[Dave_K.]

So please, take a pic for me where I can see the 15-kHz mode's scanlines.

Here are two close up shots of my PCB test menu's display option.





As for other games, off the top of my head, SF3 3rd Strike for Dreamcast has both interlace and non-interlace modes for 15khz, and I believe VF4 and Tekken 4 on the PS2.

[Recap]

Easy - standardization. The industry wants to move to 31 kHz-only monitors.

Obviously Sega/Sammy feels otherwise. Why go to the hassle of having hardware support both modes?

'Cause there are still some 15 kHz-only monitors out there, especially if you consider the foreign markets. Since the AW is little else than a DC with a cartridge slot instead of a GD-ROM drive, the 15 kHz output was already there.

Here are two close up shots of my PCB test menu's display option.

Thanks for them, but they don't clarify much, I'm afraid. Both seem to be from a true low-res mode. Care to take another two of the whole screen area from the actual game in both display modes?

As for other games, off the top of my head, SF3 3rd Strike for Dreamcast has both interlace and non-interlace modes for 15khz, and I believe VF4 and Tekken 4 on the PS2.

Not at all. VF4 and T4 are hi-res-only games, so they can't have non-interlaced 15 kHz modes. DC 3rd Strike has indeed three display modes, but it doesn't serve us well since it's a low-res game which just gets upscaled by hardware for the hi-res (interlaced) modes. And the true low-res (non-interlaced) mode suffer from pixel distortion for being slighty downscaled in real time, too.

[Neon]

There any true low res mode for PS2 3rd strike?

Hey, might as well try to make the game look better.

[Recap]

There any true low res mode for PS2 3rd strike?

Nope.

[Dave_K.]

Easy - standardization. The industry wants to move to 31 kHz-only monitors.

Obviously Sega/Sammy feels otherwise. Why go to the hassle of having hardware support both modes?

'Cause there are still some 15 kHz-only monitors out there, especially if you consider the foreign markets. Since the AW is little else than a DC with a cartridge slot instead of a GD-ROM drive, the 15 kHz output was already there.

I think you ment to say because they wanted to maintain backward compatibility with the JAMMA standard (since that is still the majority of cabinets in the market today).

Here are two close up shots of my PCB test menu's display option.

Thanks for them, but they don't clarify much, I'm afraid. Both seem to be from a true low-res mode. Care to take another two of the whole screen area from the actual game in both display modes?

I don't understand what this "true low-res" mode is you keep talking about. You can clearly see the difference between interlace and non-interlace, look at the diagonal lines in the background...thats what they are there for. Its a little harder to see the scanlines in the letters (probably because of my camera) but if you look at the green and blue "S" you can make out the scanlines. I tried taking a full screen shot in non-interlaced mode, but its very difficult to see in a picture when you are that far away from the screen (remember this is a 29" monitor).

[Recap]

I think you ment to say because they wanted to maintain backward compatibility with the JAMMA standard (since that is still the majority of cabinets in the market today).

No, since 31-kHz monitors are also a JAMMA standard.

I don't understand what this "true low-res" mode is you keep talking about. You can clearly see the difference between interlace and non-interlace, look at the diagonal lines in the background...thats what they are there for. Its a little harder to see the scanlines in the letters (probably because of my camera) but if you look at the green and blue "S" you can make out the scanlines. I tried taking a full screen shot in non-interlaced mode, but its very difficult to see in a picture when you are that far away from the screen (remember this is a 29" monitor).

Yeah, I saw the diagonal lines, but the letters are too similar in both pics. With a picture of the whole area during the actual game, I could see if the game has a native true-low res (designed for 15 kHz, non-interlaced) mode and also if it has a true hi-res (non-upscaled) graphics mode. Anyways, if that's case, be sure that it's a very very odd one. Is it a System 10 game?

[Dave_K.]

I think you ment to say because they wanted to maintain backward compatibility with the JAMMA standard (since that is still the majority of cabinets in the market today).

No, since 31-kHz monitors are also a JAMMA standard.

The Jamma spec can only handle up to 24khz (med res) as when you go up to 31khz you need both horizonal and vertical syncs (and jamma spec/fingerboard only supports composite sync). JVS is the "new jamma" standard where they fully support 31khz (via a PC style VGA plug).

Yeah, I saw the diagonal lines, but the letters are too similar in both pics. With a picture of the whole area during the actual game, I could see if the game has a native true-low res (designed for 15 kHz, non-interlaced) mode and also if it has a true hi-res (non-upscaled) graphics mode. Anyways, if that's case, be sure that it's a very very odd one. Is it a System 10 game?

Its the camera that isn't picking up the detail in the letters, but trust me you can definately see the scanlines in them v.s. interlaced. Its more pronounced in diagonal lines (the reason for them being on the display test window).

Yeah, this is a System 10 board which has the capacity to render internally at 740x480 according to system16.com website. But funny enough, there aren't any JVS spec connectors like whats on the System 12 board. So there is no way for it to output 31khz. There is even a JVS menu option on the system 10 but its permanantly greyed out.

Next time, I'll take a closer look at the Atomiswave, but I'd really like to find out how Type-x supports 15khz (and whats in the Raiden III test menu options).

[Recap]

Yeah, this is a System 10 board which has the capacity to render internally at 740x480 according to system16.com website. But funny enough, there aren't any JVS spec connectors like whats on the System 12 board. So there is no way for it to output 31khz. There is even a JVS menu option on the system 10 but its permanantly greyed out.

So couldn't it be that the game is low-res designed and the hi-res (interlaced) mode is upscaled from the original display, much like DC 3rd Strike?

Next time, I'll take a closer look at the Atomiswave, but I'd really like to find out how Type-x supports 15khz (and whats in the Raiden III test menu options).

Whatever you find out, that won't be a true-low res (15 kHz, non-interlaced) mode on any AW or Type-X game but Chaos Breaker. Think about it.