CAVE Shooting Collection X360

[Cuilan]

Note: This is a reply to Zero Gunner's now-deleted post.

Licensing PS3 games is much less of an over-all financial risk (at least up-front), due to Sony's minimum print run rules being considerably more lenient than Microsoft's. That is a fact, I assure you. That said, whether or not it was a sound business decision for RSG to license Under Defeat remains unknown, but I'm not very confident. Them licensing Akai Katana was definitely a mistake though, since their version has sold quite poorly (yes, even relative to Deathsmiles NA).

As for the Qute/RF situation, I always had a strong suspicion that Cave and G.rev were bull-shitting (see my post history if you don't believe me), and Ginga Force merely confirmed that suspicion. It's definitely not the first time that MS has allowed themselves to be used as a scapegoat.

Assuming these games are bundled in the minimum number of disks (which I think is very likely), it's going to be quite a challenge for Cave to make some games on them region-free and some not. As far as I know, no 360 game released at retail thus far has ever done that. The closest situation that I can think of was the 360 release of Quake 4 which included Quake 2 on a separate disk, and one disk was region-free while the other was region-locked. I think it's safe to say that the region-locking on the 360 is done only on a per-disk basis, not per-disk content.

By the way, the reason I believe it's likely that these games won't be on individual disks, is because MS charges publishers extra for each additional game disk after the 2nd for a multi-disk game release (this is also a fact). But who knows, MS has apparently been pretty friendly towards Cave lately due to SDOJ, so maybe they'll grant Cave an exception. As a consumer, I think it would be wonderful if each game were on its own region-free disk, but in reality...

The HDD installer probably can't tell which parts of the disc contain important data, especially on games that predate the install process.

Actually, it can. The disk install feature was updated to do so about a year after it was introduced. Prior to the update, every installed 360 game would take up ~6.7gb on the HDD. After the update, the system would only copy necessary data during a disk install.

I think the file sizes of Cave games are mainly the result of uncompressed assets (audio/sprites/hd-sprites/hi-res images/etc). They might also have duplicate data for each individual mode in a game. Maybe someone could explore the contents of the game disks to check.

[StarCreator]

The HDD installer probably can't tell which parts of the disc contain important data, especially on games that predate the install process.

Actually, it can. The disk install feature was updated to do so about a year after it was introduced. Prior to the update, every installed 360 game would take up ~6.7gb on the HDD. After the update, the system would only copy necessary data during a disk install.

I think the file sizes of Cave games are mainly the result of uncompressed assets (audio/sprites/hd-sprites/hi-res images/etc). They might also have duplicate data for each individual mode in a game. Maybe someone could explore the contents of the game disks to check.

I know there was an improvement to the installer, but even before then game sizes weren't -that- large; and if I recall correctly Deathsmiles JP's install size didn't go down significantly (or at all) even after the update. I would think it's simply a matter of what the padding data is actually composed of; 1-2 GB of nothing but spaces or zeroes would be pretty easy to detect, but if it's the content of a novel or the value of pi calculated to the 2000th decimal point, the installer is not going to be able to figure out it doesn't need to copy that unless there's some other indicator telling it that data should be ignored.

[Ganelon]

Interesting news. There's little-to-no expensive programming involved and far too much upfront cost for a casual fan (more than just buying the Platinum Collection games individually). I'd say this collection is clearly segmented for hardcore fans—who likely already own all the games—and prospective folks who were on the fence about becoming a diehard Cave fan. I definitely expect more info about Guwange's status before the collection's release. Since DLC will be on an install disc—something that's completely unnecessary and costs more money than in code form—I expect Cave realizes that its hardcore fans desire physical content and will make Guwange on-disc as well.

Since Cave has had so little recent success selling to mainstream non-shooter fans, Cave may as well earn some additional money from its hardcore base while it decides what to do from here. After all, this type of collection only works once a generation. It's somewhat disconcerting that Cave has to resort to this type of product to keep going since there's no way to replicate this collection even if it does sell extremely well. Cave deserves credit for trying just about every marketing tactic available in gaming over the past few years, from budget releases, to 2-for-1s, to cheaper retail prices, to mobile versions, to digital-only, to various levels of collector's editions, to cross-genre promotion, to pre-order bonuses, to region free, etc.

I'm not familiar with the disc production and QA process (both in-house and with Microsoft) but unless it's a trivial, inexpensive change, I don't see Cave changing the master copies to unlock regions, even if it's just a few bits of data. This type of rehash collection isn't meant to generate large amounts of money; it's targeting high margin so reducing extraneous costs is key. To that end, I also wouldn't expect any extras in this day and age. If Cave felt the need to mention dodonpachi as an unlockable bonus long before Instant Brain's release, then it's clear that Cave will advertise any value in this collection before release.

I understand that folks are disappointed over the lack of new games here but given what we know of Cave's glooming financial situation, I wouldn't be too quick to judge if I were a huge Cave fan. I'm not sure how exactly Cave is doing now, but it's not hard to believe that its gas is low, the next gas station is right around the corner but almost out of stock, and the station after that is 400 miles away. Can Cave restock enough to keep running along? We help decide.

[Bee Cool]

If this had Ibara and Ibara BL I wouldn't think twice. I'm not sure 300 dollars is worth it for physical copies of Guwange, DLC, and some Superplays that I probably have on my hard drive.

[EmperorIng]

Since Cave has had so little recent success selling to mainstream non-shooter fans,

Perhaps because their games are appealing only to people who are extremely well-versed in shooter games already? And who does this collection appeal to?

Touhou fans don't count - they never buy anything.

Cave deserves credit for trying just about every marketing tactic available in gaming over the past few years, from budget releases, to 2-for-1s, to cheaper retail prices, to mobile versions, to digital-only, to various levels of collector's editions, to cross-genre promotion, to pre-order bonuses, to region free, etc.

I wonder what would happen if they tried to develop a newcomer-friendly shmup (not necessarily easy) without an insane amount of bullets and a bright, appealing wide-targeting art-style, instead of its further targeting of niche audiences.
I don't know if Muchi Muchi Pork fits this bill, (i've only seen pictures), or how well that did for that matter. But honestly, that's a bit off-topic in regards to this deluxe pack.

[Cuilan]

I would think it's simply a matter of what the padding data is actually composed of; 1-2 GB of nothing but spaces or zeroes would be pretty easy to detect, but if it's the content of a novel or the value of pi calculated to the 2000th decimal point, the installer is not going to be able to figure out it doesn't need to copy that unless there's some other indicator telling it that data should be ignored.

The type of padding data used seems like the kind of thing that would be standardized on the 360, to ensure the highest level of compatibility with the 360's OS/file-system. Just a guess on my part though. At the very least, I don't see why they would go for something as exotic as calculating Pi over something simpler like all-zeroes.

I wonder what would happen if they tried to develop a newcomer-friendly shmup (not necessarily easy) without an insane amount of bullets and a bright, appealing wide-targeting art-style, instead of its further targeting of niche audiences.

You pretty much just described Deathsmiles, their best-selling shooter.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Milestone style.

Every company on the verge of extinction do this kind of things.

Going necrofilic every time they can.

Cave fans in a nutshell.

Seriously, how many years are people going to go on with this?

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:

People lining up to pay $300 for games they already bought.

Says the guy who has spent, what, $10,000 on CAVE PCBs? Is it that terrible to want to support one of our favorite companies? If I buy this collection it will be for the superplay DVDs (if they are the same as the ones out now, it's already a great value), and potentially the hard copy of Guwange and/or Futari BL.

I'm not sure how much I've spent on boards, but I am sure of what I haven't spent, and that is money on the same game twice. You can justify it in your head any way you want but you'd probably spend twice the amount for the box set with no DVDs just for a disc holder with a Cave logo or a booklet or whatever. I get it, best video game company ever, best games ever, but you already bought the games. I understand wanting to support them. I've bought tons of Cave goods. Send rancor a PM and buy their stuff from the shop, you know, stuff you don't already own. That's what I did.

[ninn]

I just own two 360 games, deadsmiles and donpachi daifukkatsu extra 1.5, but no Xbox to actually play them.

Price sounds ok to me, I dont know of a 7-disc collection, that is that cheap.
I am hoping for 7 retail-games in a big box, just like the PS2-SNK-Collections.
Deathsmiles got 3 disks alone, where I would never use two of them.
I would hate if they just include ONE disc and 7 dvd with extra-material - I want full packaging and manuals for each game!!


... but I can not get my mind around playing games on a 360 in 5+ years. hell - i did not even get an own 360 within the last 5 years ... Thats the main concern I got when thinking about buying it. Cant stand that dashboard + loading + dlc + rrod + bullshit.

But the games are so addictive ...


(edit)
Just to be clear:
I think it MAY be a great deal if done right. But just maybe.
Compared to the original pcbs, that collection is a tempting bargain.

[chempop]

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:

I'm not sure how much I've spent on boards, but I am sure of what I haven't spent, and that is money on the same game twice. You can justify it in your head any way you want but you'd probably spend twice the amount for the box set with no DVDs just for a disc holder with a Cave logo or a booklet or whatever.

My justification IS the bargain for superplay DVDs, like I said. You are right, I do own all the games already, why do you think I'd buy this at twice the cost for only the games..? Or are you just being a dick?

Keep being judgmental of people willing to shell out $300-$350 for a great collection while you sit on your $10,000-$20,000 complete set of PCBs lol!

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

It's a sentence on a messageboard, get over it. I said was people are lining up to pay $300 for games they already own, and it was an accurate observation. I never said anything about the games not being worth that much, to someone who doesn't already own them they are. If you are interested in the DVDs then enjoy them but then if you wanted to pay hundreds for the superplay discs then you already would have so... If people want to buy it just to donate to Cave then good, if that is the reason. When you brought it up is the first I'd heard of a demand to make a $300 donation to Cave.

[Special World]

Wow, what a bunch of antagonistic garbage this topic has spiraled into.

I do think it would be nice if Cave released a standalone Superplay compilation, for those who don't want to re-purchase the games they already have.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

The way it seems to me is that a lot of people just want the latest shiny new Cave box, no matter what is in it. In this case, literally a lot of people already own the exact games and so they enter into a game of justifying the price to themselves, just to buy the latest Cave toy, even if there is nothing new to play, just unload hundreds of dollars, literally resell the same game to the same person. I've never seen anything like it. By all means buy it and support Cave, but I find it interesting.

Clearly I should have kept my thoughts to myself, pretty much goes for any thread here. EOJ deleted his site and there's nowhere to go... Bye.

[Special World]

The way it seems to me is that a lot of people just want the latest shiny new Cave box, no matter what is in it. In this case, literally a lot of people already own the exact games and so they enter into a game of justifying the price to themselves, just to buy the latest Cave toy, even if there is nothing new to play, just unload hundreds of dollars, literally resell the same game to the same person. I've never seen anything like it. By all means buy it and support Cave, but I find it interesting.

Clearly I should have kept my thoughts to myself, pretty much goes for any thread here. EOJ deleted his site and there's nowhere to go... Bye.

I absolutely want to buy the new Cave box to get some superplays and an on-disc Futari Black Label, but I can't (at all) justify dropping $300 for it when I already have the games. I'll just chill out and wait till the day when I have tons of money and buy a cab and a Futari Black Label PCB. For people who don't have the games it's a great deal, although it seems like a weak collection since it isn't really comprehensive at all. I think at the least they should have waited until SDOJ came out and released it then, SDOJ included.

I don't understand how people can say this is a great entry point for people looking to get into Cave, though. You'd have to be crazy to buy a collection like this without having played one of Cave's games beforehand.

As it is, it just feels like my collection's incomplete without it, but it's not worth me buying when I could buy five other games for the same price.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I would absolutely love it if it somehow could be an entry point for new people to the genre but agree with what you said. Maybe they will make a free downloadable stage of lots of the games for people to try before buying but again, the pricepoint is geared at the hardcore people who are probably going to already own them all. I often feel like one day the mainstream will wake up and realize Cave games are the best games ever but it's hopeless. One day in 20-30 years this will happen with the emulation, too late.

It usually is 1 game that does it for people so maybe 1 level from all of them, could hook. That with heavy advertising for the free download.

[EmperorIng]

Even with heavy advertising, no one is going to buy a game for $300. It's insane. Even if you buy a console for that much, that comes with the assumption that you will get more games down the line.

This is geared towards the die-hard Cave fans - perhaps those that for some indiscernible reason don't own every single Cave product in existence. These are the people who will see this as a "bargain."

[KAI]

All these ideas/sales strategies, someone should send a mail to CAVE to let them know how to do things properly.

[chempop]

EOJ deleted his site and there's nowhere to go... Bye.

I don't mean to bicker about it., both of us made our points. It's true, buying a game twice is silly. I've never planned to buy any superplay DVDs but this has me tempted.

I don't think the average gamer would care much for playing a single stage.. in fact, they'd probably think every game was a copy of another and dismiss the whole lot. No way is someone who wants to get into these games will drop $300+ on the collection, it's just not happening.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

They need to try something new with advertising though outside of Japan. A free download with lots of games to try is generous and cool and shooting games are familiar and mostly quick to pick up. I know what you mean about them seeming similar to newbies but, I don't think I will give up. An email can't hurt. I will try to help. It could maybe lead to people buying 1 game. And after you have gotten hooked to 1 Cave game, it's maybe all over for you.

There also needs to be something interlaced about going for a high score or clear because most people credit feeding their way through definitely won't "get it", at all. Single credit only on the stages. And not all stage 1s. Anyway...

[Special World]

I often feel like one day the mainstream will wake up and realize Cave games are the best games ever but it's hopeless.

I feel the same way. One day some prominent videogame developer/celebrity will say "Yeah Cave games are the greatest" and then everyone will play them because they're cool.

[Skykid]

All these ideas/sales strategies, someone should send a mail to CAVE to let them know how to do things properly.

Being on the precipice of collapse, that might not be a bad idea. I'd start by telling them to fire 80% of their workforce.

[KAI]

Or we can trust history, from Cave's ashes something even better will rise.

GrevStoneIntiCaveM2

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

There is some key to advertising them to people outside of Japan that just needs to be found. Online you meet tons of people who found them through mame and are now hooked. Outside of the web, of all the people I've met who knew about mame, the only one who mentioned something other than a classic was Cave games, very enthusiastically. The way it has been is small publishers doing their normal thing, seems to appeal basically to people who already are hooked. Deathsmiles widened the audience a bit. There has to be a key to the international floodgates. If Cave goes mainstream we're set for life, and hopefully it could help boost the arcade revival...somewhat. Well it's trendy in a lot of cities now.

I agree that they should lose 80% but don't see us convincing them of it.

[MSZ]

Superplay DVDs? They all better have world-record top scores like the Ketsui DVD I have, otherwise I'm gonna skip it.

[powersoul]

Mega collections are supposed to be cheap. I have never seen one this expensive before. Or maybe it's just because my local stores don't carry some of the more outrageously priced items.

Loved that picture above me btw.

[system11]

Just deleted some posts and edited others because some people can't discuss things without insulting eachother.

[Skykid]

I agree that they should lose 80% but don't see us convincing them of it.

It won't happen because of the stubborn regime and structuring of Japanese companies. Inafune was in a fairly premier position in Capcom and he told them they needed to do the same thing, but they wouldn't have any of it. Although the Japanese are infamous for firing people for sneezing the wrong way, they seem to have real difficulties when it comes to drastic downsizing/restructuring to save their ass from the brink.

When it was just Ikeda, Inoue and a few other dudes sitting around an office, they were perfectly capable of turning out games of the same quality - or arguably better - than they do today, and for a far lesser overhead.

It seems a cyclical problem in a game co's demise: SNK screwed themselves the same way.

They could always merge...

CAVE.REV

TREASURE-CAVE

CAVESTONE

[Deca]

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

So long as Ikeda permanently bats cleanup. Otherwise no thanks.

[Obscura]

When it was just Ikeda, Inoue and a few other dudes sitting around an office, they were perfectly capable of turning out games of the same quality - or arguably better - than they do today

Much better.

[AntiFritz]

I agree that they should lose 80% but don't see us convincing them of it.

It won't happen because of the stubborn regime and structuring of Japanese companies. Inafune was in a fairly premier position in Capcom and he told them they needed to do the same thing, but they wouldn't have any of it. Although the Japanese are infamous for firing people for sneezing the wrong way, they seem to have real difficulties when it comes to drastic downsizing/restructuring to save their ass from the brink.

When it was just Ikeda, Inoue and a few other dudes sitting around an office, they were perfectly capable of turning out games of the same quality - or arguably better - than they do today, and for a far lesser overhead.

It seems a cyclical problem in a game co's demise: SNK screwed themselves the same way.

They could always merge...

CAVE.REV

TREASURE-CAVE

CAVESTONE

How did they even go from that to having like 100 staff anyway?